How does Marcus fit in when he comes back?

[droopdog7]

SMH at people always wanted to trade guys they are down on.  Honestly, Smart is not a very good player.  If he wasn't the sixth pick in the draft, we would not be trying to find ways fit him into the lineup.  We would not give a second thought about a defensive role player with no offensive position or skill.

Guys bust all the time in the NBA.  Just because a guy was picked high does not mean he will be a good player.  Fans will have to come to the realization at some point that Smart is a bust in waiting.  He is indeed Marcus Banks 2.0 and will never even be a starter in this league.

Hyperbole?  That's what you think.  But we shall find out soon enough.

Ouch!!  Somebody's clearly not a fan.

Love his defense and passion.  But skill level on offense is atrocious.  That will keep him off the court in crucial situations and prevent him from ever being anything more than a role player.

Sorry to say.

I wonder where we'd be today if we judged Bradley by his second year offense...

Bradley, I think, is maximizing his ability.  But he isn't showing anything at all today that knowledgeable fans didn't already know at that time.  Tough defender who could shoot with shaky ball handling and decision making.  Still the same guy pretty much today that was he then. Difference is experience, role on the team, and confidence (which was the biggest reason he struggled shooting early on).

Now look at Marcus.  He has demonstrated he cannot shoot over year and years, is also shaky running the team, has shown himself to be fairly unexplosive with the ball getting by his man and finishing.  His one plus trait offensively is his strength, but I do not believe he will be able to use this to his advantage at this level because strength has to be combined with something else (cleverness with the ball, explosiveness, first step, something) or else we'd have offensive lineman dominating in the league.

So to answer your question, Avery hasn't changed much in terms of ability.  And Marcus won't either.

[droopdog7]

In what fantasy world are you getting this from?? He was a starter on our team and playing some of the most minutes on our team.

Eh. He was playing 29 minutes... because everyone on this team is playing 29 minutes unless someone is injured.

Actually, only Crowder, Bradley, and IT are getting more minutes than him, and most of that has come since Smart was out due to fewer reliable guards to work with. Everyone else has 26 minutes or less, so there's absolutely no justification to saying he was struggling to stay on the court for a good team.

Depends on what you define as a good team. He can probably start on 40-45 win teams, sure. On better teams, he's probably strictly a defensive specialist, likely off the bench. There are limits to getting away with being a 36% shooter.

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

Well at least we are getting more realistic with the comps for marcus.  But the question should't be whether he can start.  Those things are largely determined by the rest of the team.  The question should be whether marcus will ever be anything more than a role player.  I do not believe so.

[Evantime34]

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

I would be ecstatic if Marcus Smart turns into Tony Allen. In fact, if Smart becomes anything close to Allen, he'll probably be a 12-year starter on any team he goes to. To do this, he needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort, because having a PG who can't make a jump shot or a layup is not a good start.

You are underrating Smart by saying to be more like Tony Allen, Smart needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort. The Grizzlies have really struggled to score this year, due in most part to teams deciding not guarding Allen is their best defensive strategy. Smart is miles ahead of where Allen was offensively at the same point in his life (Allen was 23 his rookie year, Smart is currently 21). For Allen's first couple years in the league you would see him make mistakes in his defensive rotations, Smart hasn't done that since mid way through his rookie year.

Smart is already every bit of the defender Allen was in his prime. The difference is Smart is elite defensively at 21 where Allen didn't really become an elite playable defender until he hit his prime years.

Sure Smart hasn't put up good percentages this year, but I don't think the 9 games he has played are a representative sample size, especially when several of those game had Smart clearly playing hurt.

[jpotter33]

In what fantasy world are you getting this from?? He was a starter on our team and playing some of the most minutes on our team.

Eh. He was playing 29 minutes... because everyone on this team is playing 29 minutes unless someone is injured.

Actually, only Crowder, Bradley, and IT are getting more minutes than him, and most of that has come since Smart was out due to fewer reliable guards to work with. Everyone else has 26 minutes or less, so there's absolutely no justification to saying he was struggling to stay on the court for a good team.

Depends on what you define as a good team. He can probably start on 40-45 win teams, sure. On better teams, he's probably strictly a defensive specialist, likely off the bench. There are limits to getting away with being a 36% shooter.

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

Well at least we are getting more realistic with the comps for marcus.  But the question should't be whether he can start.  Those things are largely determined by the rest of the team.  The question should be whether marcus will ever be anything more than a role player.  I do not believe so.

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

[jpotter33]

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

I would be ecstatic if Marcus Smart turns into Tony Allen. In fact, if Smart becomes anything close to Allen, he'll probably be a 12-year starter on any team he goes to. To do this, he needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort, because having a PG who can't make a jump shot or a layup is not a good start.

You are underrating Smart by saying to be more like Tony Allen, Smart needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort. The Grizzlies have really struggled to score this year, due in most part to teams deciding not guarding Allen is their best defensive strategy. Smart is miles ahead of where Allen was offensively at the same point in his life (Allen was 23 his rookie year, Smart is currently 21)

Smart is already every bit of the defender Allen was in his prime. The difference is Smart is elite defensively at 21 where Allen didn't really become an elite playable defender until he hit his prime years.

Sure Smart hasn't put up good percentages this year, but I don't think the 9 games he has played are a representative sample size, especially when several of those game had Smart clearly playing hurt.

TP. Pretty much echoing what I've been saying. I really didn't realize that he'd only played nine games this year, though. 

By the way, didn't you go to the Golden State game? How was that?

[34truth]

This thread is so predictable. Bloggers freak out when it's suggested a guy should come off the bench (oh no!) or maybe even be traded, if the right deal could be struck, in a league where roster turnover is more typical than any other major sport.

There's also the typical 'intangibles are more important than results' posts. Seems like we should just cut-and-paste these threads from previous players but fill "Smart" in the blank where a departed player has been.

I get it -- Marcus is a guy who folks like to identify with. But he's hardly above being a bench player in the NBA at this point, especially considering he's struggled to stay on the court for a team that's playing very good basketball.

He's the third best guard on this team right now. It might actually HELP his development to only be tasked with 22-24 minutes a night.

Arguably 4th

[Evantime34]

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

I would be ecstatic if Marcus Smart turns into Tony Allen. In fact, if Smart becomes anything close to Allen, he'll probably be a 12-year starter on any team he goes to. To do this, he needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort, because having a PG who can't make a jump shot or a layup is not a good start.

You are underrating Smart by saying to be more like Tony Allen, Smart needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort. The Grizzlies have really struggled to score this year, due in most part to teams deciding not guarding Allen is their best defensive strategy. Smart is miles ahead of where Allen was offensively at the same point in his life (Allen was 23 his rookie year, Smart is currently 21)

Smart is already every bit of the defender Allen was in his prime. The difference is Smart is elite defensively at 21 where Allen didn't really become an elite playable defender until he hit his prime years.

Sure Smart hasn't put up good percentages this year, but I don't think the 9 games he has played are a representative sample size, especially when several of those game had Smart clearly playing hurt.

TP. Pretty much echoing what I've been saying. I really didn't realize that he'd only played nine games this year, though. 

By the way, didn't you go to the Golden State game? How was that?

Yes I did. A couple of my friends and I split a 10 game pack and I won our lottery for who gets the first pick of the games. I was really lucky to go and very impressed with the how loud the stadium was. In an era where opposing fans have easier access to tickets than any other time, it was great to hear the Garden rocking.

It did make me kind of sad that we did all the hard work to tire the Warriors so that the Bucks could snap their streak.

[34truth]

In my opinion what makes Smart so detrimental to this team is his role. He is relied on to be some type of star, when he's barely an NBA starter. He plays way too many minutes, his shot selection is dreadful, and even though he is very good defensively, as a team defender he commits a lot of mistakes. Now, if Brad realized that he's at least the third (in my opinion fourth) best guard in this team, and nowhere close to a star and just used him as a role player everyone would benefit

[kozlodoev]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

[34truth]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

[Evantime34]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

Except Allen never expanded what he could do offensively, he just moved to a team that didn't need him to score so his offensive shortcomings became less evident.

I'd rather have a highly drafted prospect attempt to shatter their limitations rather than admit what they are at 21.

Also, I disagree with what you said in your previous post about him making mistakes as a help defender. Having watched both guys play, Allen was clearly the guy who made mistakes in help defense not Smart.

[droopdog7]

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

I would be ecstatic if Marcus Smart turns into Tony Allen. In fact, if Smart becomes anything close to Allen, he'll probably be a 12-year starter on any team he goes to. To do this, he needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort, because having a PG who can't make a jump shot or a layup is not a good start.

You are underrating Smart by saying to be more like Tony Allen, Smart needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort. The Grizzlies have really struggled to score this year, due in most part to teams deciding not guarding Allen is their best defensive strategy. Smart is miles ahead of where Allen was offensively at the same point in his life (Allen was 23 his rookie year, Smart is currently 21). For Allen's first couple years in the league you would see him make mistakes in his defensive rotations, Smart hasn't done that since mid way through his rookie year.

Smart is already every bit of the defender Allen was in his prime. The difference is Smart is elite defensively at 21 where Allen didn't really become an elite playable defender until he hit his prime years.

Sure Smart hasn't put up good percentages this year, but I don't think the 9 games he has played are a representative sample size, especially when several of those game had Smart clearly playing hurt.

The biggest difference between TA and Marcus offensively, besides their style of course, is that Marcus takes shots and TA doesn't.  But both bad offensive players.  In term of style, TA was a slasher who could get to the bucket and finish.  Marcus shoots a lot but he can shoot and he hasn't shown himself to be a consistent finisher either.

As for defense, TA was an elite defender from the get go.  So not sure where that comes from.  But to add to your point that the grizz struggle with TA on the floor, that is absolutely true.  Problem is that will be true for the Celts with Marcus on the floor too.  He may not be a guy who stays on the floor at the end of games because of it.

[Rosco917]

Marcus Smart is a guy you simply want on your team, I don't care if he starts, or comes off the bench, he plays hard, he defends like you stole his wallet, and he does it all the time. Players see this tenacious attitude, and imitate it. That's the type of stuff Championship are built on. Wait till he's 24-25 years old, and he starts to really know the league. He will find enough offense to justify his minutes, if you give him the same patients you gave Bradley.

When you acquire a new player, even a Demarcus Cousins type of personality, when they see the way Smart, Bradley, Crowder work... they're embarrassed to give just a 75% effort, they step it up. Because remember, you don't need the ball to play smart hard defense.

That's why this team, all of a sudden, began winning a little, when we rid ourselves of Green and Rondo. They began playing together, on the same page. Lead by who? Bradley, Smart, Crowder, players like Turner, IT, RJ, Mickey now understand that's the way this team brings it. 

It's brought us to where we are now. 

[littleteapot]

Bradley, I think, is maximizing his ability.  But he isn't showing anything at all today that knowledgeable fans didn't already know at that time.  Tough defender who could shoot with shaky ball handling and decision making.  Still the same guy pretty much today that was he then. Difference is experience, role on the team, and confidence (which was the biggest reason he struggled shooting early on).

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=51624.0

Avery can't play


In fact, he's downright awful.

Of course, this has been obvious to me from the get go.  There can't still be believers out there can there?  Unfortunately for Avery, he'll be out of the league within three years easy.

[34truth]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

Except Allen never expanded what he could do offensively, he just moved to a team that didn't need him to score so his offensive shortcomings became less evident.

I'd rather have a highly drafted prospect attempt to shatter their limitations rather than admit what they are at 21.

Also, I disagree with what you said in your previous post about him making mistakes as a help defender. Having watched both guys play, Allen was clearly the guy who made mistakes in help defense not Smart.

Well, Smart makes a lot of help defense mistakes every single game. I disagree with you vehemently. Bradley used to commit way more too, untill Brad Stevens talked to him about it, and this is now more acceptable. Of course I'd rather have Smart because of potential, is this even a question? I just stated a reality, he is yet to learn a lot of stuff that TA does right. One of them is knowing how to play team defense. In general everything you said is completely off to me