Forget Tony Allen ... is Smart a guard version of Draymond Green?

[droopdog7]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

[LarBrd33]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

Like I said in the game thread... he's Tony Allen with all the french fries. 

Great defender, limited offensively... but doesn't seem to have the mental lapses Tony had in Boston.  There were times when Tony seemed totally out of it.  Smart is a high intangibles guy... despite some ill advised shots, he seems to have a good feel on offense. 

You gotta keep in mind that when people like Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons suggest that Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen, they aren't saying it as an insult.  Tony went on to be one of the best defenders in the league after he left the Celtics.  I think fans here have trouble with that, because we remember Tony as a bench player that we basically let walk. 

I think Smart could develop a better offense long-term, though.  Rodney Stuckey keeps coming to mind for me.  Stuckey in his prime averaged 14-16 points, 3-5 assists on 40-44% shooting.   Stuckey was a career 30% from three and 83% from the line, though.  I don't know that Smart will be that good of a free throw shooter, but maybe his 3p shooting will be slightly better. 

[Celtics18]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

Like I said in the game thread... he's Tony Allen with all the french fries. 

Great defender, limited offensively... but doesn't seem to have the mental lapses Tony had in Boston.  There were times when Tony seemed totally out of it.  Smart is a high intangibles guy... despite some ill advised shots, he seems to have a good feel on offense. 

You gotta keep in mind that when people like Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons suggest that Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen, they aren't saying it as an insult.  Tony went on to be one of the best defenders in the league after he left the Celtics.  I think fans here have trouble with that, because we remember Tony as a bench player that we basically let walk. 

I think Smart could develop a better offense long-term, though.  Rodney Stuckey keeps coming to mind for me.  Stuckey in his prime averaged 14-16 points, 3-5 assists on 40-44% shooting.   Stuckey was a career 30% from three and 83% from the line, though.  I don't know that Smart will be that good of a free throw shooter, but maybe his 3p shooting will be slightly better.

The thing is, though, that Tony Allen level defense combined with Rodney Stuckey level offense is a way better player than Tony Allen with Tony Allen level offense. 

[Monkhouse]

I think Smart has a far higher ceiling than Allen, and it isn't a knock on Allen:


    NBA champion (2008)
    3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2013, 2015)
    NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2011)
    Big 12 Player of the Year (2004)

Is really honestly nothing you or I, can laugh at. Defensive players like Allen are essential for championship teams. I just think Smart already has better handles, and a better knack of shooting. His shot selection is iffy, but hes been making very clutch shots, and not afraid of the moment. I would rather have a player that could come through in the clutch, and take the tough shot, than a guy that scores well, but collapses in crunch time.

I just see Smart as being a really weird hybrid mix of Allen, Billups, and Draymond Green. Hes big and strong enough to even switch on 4's, and really doesn't seem to mind guarding players like Leonard, George, or Lebron James. They all have the defensive intangibles, and the hustle plays.

[LarBrd33]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

Like I said in the game thread... he's Tony Allen with all the french fries. 

Great defender, limited offensively... but doesn't seem to have the mental lapses Tony had in Boston.  There were times when Tony seemed totally out of it.  Smart is a high intangibles guy... despite some ill advised shots, he seems to have a good feel on offense. 

You gotta keep in mind that when people like Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons suggest that Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen, they aren't saying it as an insult.  Tony went on to be one of the best defenders in the league after he left the Celtics.  I think fans here have trouble with that, because we remember Tony as a bench player that we basically let walk. 

I think Smart could develop a better offense long-term, though.  Rodney Stuckey keeps coming to mind for me.  Stuckey in his prime averaged 14-16 points, 3-5 assists on 40-44% shooting.   Stuckey was a career 30% from three and 83% from the line, though.  I don't know that Smart will be that good of a free throw shooter, but maybe his 3p shooting will be slightly better.

The thing is, though, that Tony Allen level defense combined with Rodney Stuckey level offense is a way better player than Tony Allen with Tony Allen level offense.

Sure.  I agree.   And we can all hope that someday Smart gets to that level.  He's not on Stuckey's level offensively yet.  It just seems semi-reasonable that he'll eventually get there.   My hope is that he can exceed that... If i had it my way he'd develop into a rich man's Steph Curry on offense and a rich man's Bill Russell on defense... but an Allen/Stuckey hybrid seems like a more reasonable expectation.

One of the other reasons I like the Stuckey comparison is that I vividly remember Pistons fans thinking Stuckey was a future superstar.  Joe Dumars was ga-ga over him and avoided trading him for several years... slowly watching his trade value creep lower and lower as he failed to reach the lofty expectations.  Stuckey ended up being a decent player, but never close to a superstar.   Smart has a ways to go until he's even putting up prime Stuckey numbers... but it seems reachable. 

Anyways... the Tony Allen comp will remain until Smart shows otherwise. 

Tony Allen Per-36: 13.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 2.3 steals, 48%/27%/72%
M. Smart  Per 36: 10.7 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 2 steals, 36%/32%/65%

Tony came into the league at age 23, though.  Smart doesn't turn 22 for a few months.  If Smart doesn't someday exceed Tony Allen, it will be royally disappointing. 

[crimson_stallion]

See title.

Smart's been compared to Tony Allen around here, and not exactly as a compliment.

Unfortunately, that comparison fails because Tony's total lack of shooting means that as much as he helps a defense, he has a tendency to hurt an offense almost as much on the other end. 

Huh?  Marcus Smart is a horrible shooter.  He misses long, he misses short, he misses left, he misses right.  He shoots the ball way too high and it comes down very heavy.  It's too bad, because he'd be dominant if he could shoot, but I'm sorry to say it but I think both Tony Allen and Rondo are/were better shooters than Smart.

I'm sorry, but I don't know how to respond to this.

Your tone suggests you are serious, but I don't know how anybody could be serious in making such a statement.

Tony Allen was one of the worst shooters I've seen get 'regular rotation' minutes in a Celtics uniform over the past 10 years.

For his career he has taken only 28% of his field goals beyond 10 feet, and on those he has shot:

31% on twos from 10-16 feet
32% on twos beyond 16 feet
27% on threes

Rajon Rondo has taken 39% of his field goals outside 10 feet, and on those he has shot:

39% on twos from 10-16 feet
40% on twos beyond 16 feet
26% on threes

Marcus Smart as taken 67% of his field goals outside of 10 feet, and on those he has shot:

42% on twos from 10-16 feet
29% on twos beyond 16 feet
33% on threes
 
I think it's pretty obvious from the numbers that Smart is already a far, far better shooter than Tony Allen can dream of.  Allen only shot a higher percentage from Smart from one range (16 ft - 3PT) and even there the advantage was only 3%.  Smart has shot 11% better from 10-16 feet and 6% better from three.

The Rondo comparison is a bit tricker, simply because Rondo is actually a better mid-range shooter than he's given credit for...but is a horrendous three point shooter.  Over 12 NBA seasons Rondo has only shot > 30% from three twice (08-09 and 14-15) while Smart (small sample size, obviously) has yet to shoot less than 30% from three for a season despite taking something like 5x more attempts.

Actually, Tony Allen and Rajon Rondo combined have only made 228 career three pointers.  That's in a combined 1,260 games over 12 NBA seasons.  Marcus Smart has not even played one full season worth of games (74 games so far) and he's already made 100 of them.


 

 

[crimson_stallion]

Sure.  I agree.   And we can all hope that someday Smart gets to that level.  He's not on Stuckey's level offensively yet.  It just seems semi-reasonable that he'll eventually get there.   My hope is that he can exceed that... If i had it my way he'd develop into a rich man's Steph Curry on offense and a rich man's Bill Russell on defense... but an Allen/Stuckey hybrid seems like a more reasonable expectation.

One of the other reasons I like the Stuckey comparison is that I vividly remember Pistons fans thinking Stuckey was a future superstar.  Joe Dumars was ga-ga over him and avoided trading him for several years... slowly watching his trade value creep lower and lower as he failed to reach the lofty expectations.  Stuckey ended up being a decent player, but never close to a superstar.   Smart has a ways to go until he's even putting up prime Stuckey numbers... but it seems reachable. 

Anyways... the Tony Allen comp will remain until Smart shows otherwise. 

Tony Allen Per-36: 13.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 2.3 steals, 48%/27%/72%
M. Smart  Per 36: 10.7 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 2 steals, 36%/32%/65%

Tony came into the league at age 23, though.  Smart doesn't turn 22 for a few months.  If Smart doesn't someday exceed Tony Allen, it will be royally disappointing.

The difference here is that Marcus Smart can actually do more than just defend the perimeter, rebound and drive to the basket - which are quite litterly the only three things Tony Allen is even remotely competent at.

In Allen's 12 year career he has only averaged more assists than turnovers 6 times, and when he has it it has been just barely.  He is completely incapable of running an offense, completely incapable of being a primary ball handler, and completely incapable of scaring any opponent with his three point shooting. 

Because of his offensive limitations, Tony Allen actually compared better with Avery Bradley than with Marcus Smart - since both are perimeter players who specialise in defense, and have very weak PG skills.  The difference here is that Bradley is actually a 'good' outside shooter - and Allen is certainly not.   

Smart can handle the ball, he can pass, he can run an offense and he can hit long jumpers with some consistency. 

This offensive 'versatility' is the little factor that all the "Tony Allen 2.0" crowd always seem to ignore and refuse to acknowledge.  It's also the reason why Marcus Smart might arguably already be (at age 21) better than Tony Allen ever has been.

Basketball is about more than just Box score numbers.  Skills and versatility do count for something.  Marcus Smart might be 85% as useful on defense as Tony Allen is, but there is no way Tony Allen is anywhere near 85% as useful on offense as Smart is.

It's very difficult to actually find a player who is even remotely close to Smart as a comparison.  It's very unusual to have a 6'4" / 230 pound guard who can lock-down D three positions on defense at an elite level, has the ball handling/passing/IQ to run an offense at a competent (but not elite) level, rebounds pretty well, and has a competent long range jumper.

I've never really been able to think of a clear comparison, but Iggy has always been the closest to me because (though he is a natural SF) he does have the PG skills to run an offense, he can hit the outside shot (but isn't spectacular at it) and he can cover anything from PG to SF on defense at an elite level.

I can think of other guys who meet some of the criteria, but then they fall over on others. For example:

Gary Payton - matches up defensively and with his shooting, but was a much better passer
Baron Davis - as with Payton
Derek Fisher - lacks the size to defend big guards and small forwards
Jameer Nelson - as with Derek Fisher
Chauncey Billups - much better playmaker and shooter than Smart
Tim Hardaway - much better passer than Smart and lacks the height

It's weird, but I kinda feel like Marcus Smart is a Point-Forward in a point guards body, which makes it incredibly difficult to find any historical comparions lol

[libermaniac]

See title.

Smart's been compared to Tony Allen around here, and not exactly as a compliment.

Unfortunately, that comparison fails because Tony's total lack of shooting means that as much as he helps a defense, he has a tendency to hurt an offense almost as much on the other end. 

Really? 

Huh?  Marcus Smart is a horrible shooter.  He misses long, he misses short, he misses left, he misses right.  He shoots the ball way too high and it comes down very heavy.  It's too bad, because he'd be dominant if he could shoot, but I'm sorry to say it but I think both Tony Allen and Rondo are/were better shooters than Smart.

You can think whatever you want, but stats and reality point to Smart being a better shooter.  Maybe not as good at finishing inside, but a better shooter

Smart's career FG%: .364
Rondo's career FG%  .468
Allen's career FG%:  .478

I know Rondo and Allen drive more, but that's part of the game.  Smart is flat out a bad shooter.  Trust me, I hope he improves, but it doesn't look promising.  And arguing semantics over who's better between 3 bad shooters is besides the point.  Smart can't shoot.

[KeepRondo]

I think Ron Artest is still the best comp if you go wing.

Draymond is well above average rebounder as a small forward and an excellent playmaker for combo forward. The shooting (in)ability and defensive acumen/versatility are similar, but Smart is a good but unexceptional rebounder at the 1 and only an okay playmaker as a combo guard. I don't think he creates the same 2-way match-up advantages as Green. And on D, I think he plays with significantly more aggression.

I think it's more likely that Smart develops into an inefficient but occasionally effective scorer like Ron than a Swiss Army Knife like Green.

Yes on the Ron Artest comparison. Best perimeter defender in my opinion of the last 15 years. Smart is the next best thing since.

[PhoSita]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

Tony Allen has attempted 0.5 threes per game for his career and has hit 27% of them.

Marcus Smart, despite a tough start to this season and some struggles with injuries last year, has attempted 4.2 threes per game so far in his career, and has hit 32.5% of them.

They're really nothing alike offensively.  It's a lazy comparison.

[LarBrd33]

Sure.  I agree.   And we can all hope that someday Smart gets to that level.  He's not on Stuckey's level offensively yet.  It just seems semi-reasonable that he'll eventually get there.   My hope is that he can exceed that... If i had it my way he'd develop into a rich man's Steph Curry on offense and a rich man's Bill Russell on defense... but an Allen/Stuckey hybrid seems like a more reasonable expectation.

One of the other reasons I like the Stuckey comparison is that I vividly remember Pistons fans thinking Stuckey was a future superstar.  Joe Dumars was ga-ga over him and avoided trading him for several years... slowly watching his trade value creep lower and lower as he failed to reach the lofty expectations.  Stuckey ended up being a decent player, but never close to a superstar.   Smart has a ways to go until he's even putting up prime Stuckey numbers... but it seems reachable. 

Anyways... the Tony Allen comp will remain until Smart shows otherwise. 

Tony Allen Per-36: 13.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 2.3 steals, 48%/27%/72%
M. Smart  Per 36: 10.7 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 2 steals, 36%/32%/65%

Tony came into the league at age 23, though.  Smart doesn't turn 22 for a few months.  If Smart doesn't someday exceed Tony Allen, it will be royally disappointing.

The difference here is that Marcus Smart can actually do more than just defend the perimeter, rebound and drive to the basket - which are quite litterly the only three things Tony Allen is even remotely competent at.

In Allen's 12 year career he has only averaged more assists than turnovers 6 times, and when he has it it has been just barely.  He is completely incapable of running an offense, completely incapable of being a primary ball handler, and completely incapable of scaring any opponent with his three point shooting. 

Smart can handle the ball, he can pass, he can run an offense and he can hit long jumpers with some consistency. 

This offensive 'versatility' is the little factor that all the "Tony Allen 2.0" crowd always seem to ignore and refuse to acknowledge.  It's also the reason why Marcus Smart might arguably already be (at age 21) better than Tony Allen ever has been.

Basketball is about more than just Box score numbers.  Skills and versatility do count for something.  Marcus Smart might be 85% as useful on defense as Tony Allen is, but there is no way Tony Allen is anywhere near 85% as useful on offense as Smart is.

I think the common argument here from defensive fans is that Smart would be totally capable of shooting a Tony Allen-esque 48% if he wasn't spending so much of his energy shooting from distance... and the fact that Smart's 3 point shooting is better than Allen's (though, it actually might not be... Smart is shooting 25% from three this season... Allen is a career 27% shooter from distance) somehow proves that Smart is a good offensive player.   We've already covered this ground.   Marcus Smart is a below-average 3-point shooter.  There's some 200 players in this league who shot a higher 3-point percentage than Smart last year... and of players who average at least 3 attempts this year, Smart is ranked 101 out of 112 qualified players... So can we please stop using Smart's below-average three point shooting as an excuse for his poor offensive abilities?  Just stop it... it doesn't make any sense.  Another thing people do is reference his eFG% or other niche advanced stats and neglect to mention how it compares with the rest of the league (not good).   

That said, he's only 22 years old, he's a hard worker and I think he has clear offensive intangibles.  Tony didn't even come into the league until age 23.  There's still plenty of time for Smart to develop.  I expect him to improve.

[PhoSita]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

Like I said in the game thread... he's Tony Allen with all the french fries. 

Great defender, limited offensively... but doesn't seem to have the mental lapses Tony had in Boston.  There were times when Tony seemed totally out of it.  Smart is a high intangibles guy... despite some ill advised shots, he seems to have a good feel on offense. 

You gotta keep in mind that when people like Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons suggest that Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen, they aren't saying it as an insult.  Tony went on to be one of the best defenders in the league after he left the Celtics.  I think fans here have trouble with that, because we remember Tony as a bench player that we basically let walk. 

I think Smart could develop a better offense long-term, though.  Rodney Stuckey keeps coming to mind for me.  Stuckey in his prime averaged 14-16 points, 3-5 assists on 40-44% shooting.   Stuckey was a career 30% from three and 83% from the line, though.  I don't know that Smart will be that good of a free throw shooter, but maybe his 3p shooting will be slightly better.

The thing is, though, that Tony Allen level defense combined with Rodney Stuckey level offense is a way better player than Tony Allen with Tony Allen level offense.

My thoughts exactly.

And again, Stuckey is not the same kind of shooter.  He's taken 1.0 threes per game for his career and hit 30.3% of them.

I can see being pessimistic about Smart's offense on the basis that he hasn't shown the kind of consistent growth inside of the three point line that many -- including myself -- hoped he would have shown by now. 

What I don't understand is the persistent idea that he can't shoot.  A great shooter he is not -- he's not even particularly good -- but he's been good enough through his first season and change to keep opponents honest, and has given us plenty of reason to think he'll continue to improve in that area.

[PhoSita]

Smart's career FG%: .364
Rondo's career FG%  .468
Allen's career FG%:  .478

Sure, let's totally ignore TS%

[Rondo9]

Smart's career FG%: .364
Rondo's career FG%  .468
Allen's career FG%:  .478

Sure, let's totally ignore TS%

Or the fact that Smart in his rookie year took and made more threes than Rondo and Allen.

[LarBrd33]

Smart went 1-11 last night and is shooting 35% from the field and 67% from the line.  He pretty much IS Tony Allen.

I would rate TA a slightly better on ball defender and Smart a better team defender.

Like I said in the game thread... he's Tony Allen with all the french fries. 

Great defender, limited offensively... but doesn't seem to have the mental lapses Tony had in Boston.  There were times when Tony seemed totally out of it.  Smart is a high intangibles guy... despite some ill advised shots, he seems to have a good feel on offense. 

You gotta keep in mind that when people like Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons suggest that Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen, they aren't saying it as an insult.  Tony went on to be one of the best defenders in the league after he left the Celtics.  I think fans here have trouble with that, because we remember Tony as a bench player that we basically let walk. 

I think Smart could develop a better offense long-term, though.  Rodney Stuckey keeps coming to mind for me.  Stuckey in his prime averaged 14-16 points, 3-5 assists on 40-44% shooting.   Stuckey was a career 30% from three and 83% from the line, though.  I don't know that Smart will be that good of a free throw shooter, but maybe his 3p shooting will be slightly better.

The thing is, though, that Tony Allen level defense combined with Rodney Stuckey level offense is a way better player than Tony Allen with Tony Allen level offense.

My thoughts exactly.

And again, Stuckey is not the same kind of shooter.  He's taken 1.0 threes per game for his career and hit 30.3% of them.

I can see being pessimistic about Smart's offense on the basis that he hasn't shown the kind of consistent growth inside of the three point line that many -- including myself -- hoped he would have shown by now. 

What I don't understand is the persistent idea that he can't shoot.  A great shooter he is not -- he's not even particularly good -- but he's been good enough through his first season and change to keep opponents honest, and has given us plenty of reason to think he'll continue to improve in that area.

Simply having a 3-point shoot (though a below average 3-point shot) vs not having a 3-point shot at all... is not an example of why Marcus SMart is a better offensive player than Tony Allen.  By that Logic, Rajon Rondo was a better offensive player than Shaq.  Shaq was a career 0% shooter from 3-point land.  Rondo was a career 26% shooter from 3-point land.   Rondo's a shooter! 

Again, I like that people use stats like TS% to prove why Smart is a good offensive player.  "Who cares that he shoots 32% from three... he's got a TS% of 48%!!"... Tony Allen has a career TS% of 54%... peaking at 60%.   Yes, let's ignore Smart's TS%... it sucks.
 
So far, Smart hasn't been a good offensive player.   Next excuse in the line of excuses is the "eye test"... and I acknowledge it.  Smart seems to know what he's doing on offense.  That's why I said yesterday that his offensive intangibles reminded me of Rajon Rondo (another garbage offensive player).  He's like a slightly better shooting Rondo without as many assists... for what that's worth.   

Last excuse in the line of excuses... blame it on his injuries bothering him more than he lets on.  That one is fun.

And again, none of this matters, because he's a handful of games into his second season and could theoretically break out at any second.  Maybe the shots fall eventually.  Maybe he starts finishing at the hoop regularly.  Here's hoping.