Author Topic: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten  (Read 6607 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2015, 01:29:13 PM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Lavine is top 10 in my books. Look at his stats this year so far

No doubt, he's ballin' right now. But his development was stunted by the Wolves playing him at point in his first season. Thankfully for him, it doesn't matter anyways, because even if he was putting up great stats at the 2 guard, idiots like me would've wanted to see him do it on a more competitive team. Now the Wolves play legitimate ball games and LaVine is killing it at shooting guard -- but he's red hot. Let's see if he can show consistent improvement in other parts of his game once his shooting evens out (LaVine's a good shooter, but I'm not sure he can sustain 41.4% on nearly 3 threes a game in just under 23 minutes). I think, as I implied near the end of the post, that some of these younger guys (LaVine, Capela, etc.) could absolutely leapfrog their peers a few years from now. But they started out having to answer harder questions than guys like Gordon, Exum, Randle, etc. did. So they'll have to produce at this level for a longer period of time before people are convinced.


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2015, 01:36:26 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Where is lavine??

Honorable mentions.

Clarkson, Payton, Nurkic, McDermott, Warren, Hood, Stauskas, Harris, Capela


Here we have the land of role players with starter potential.  Again, make your argument for any order.

I think the ceilings of Hood and Nurkic particularly are higher than that of plain starter. Hood is a silky smooth shooter who can finish inside and has defensive potential his athletic ability and size. Nurkic is more athletic than initially thought to be and has all the skills he was advertised to have. Definitely hurt by the injury. I still think he'll do better than "starter."


Zach Lavine is 20 years old.  Rodney Hood is 23 years old.  This seems to be a factor you've overlooked.

Nurkic had a decent rookie season, but he's also already 21, and he's a more traditional paint big man without a jumper at a time when the bar for success in that role has been set much higher.  His scoring efficiency in that role, even as a rookie, is concerning.  His defensive numbers as a rookie might have been the most promising thing for him, which is interesting because he was heralded as more of an offensive-minded post-up guy, but it's hard to know what to make of numbers garnered on that awful Nuggets squad.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2015, 01:46:21 PM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Where is lavine??

Honorable mentions.

Clarkson, Payton, Nurkic, McDermott, Warren, Hood, Stauskas, Harris, Capela


Here we have the land of role players with starter potential.  Again, make your argument for any order.

I think the ceilings of Hood and Nurkic particularly are higher than that of plain starter. Hood is a silky smooth shooter who can finish inside and has defensive potential his athletic ability and size. Nurkic is more athletic than initially thought to be and has all the skills he was advertised to have. Definitely hurt by the injury. I still think he'll do better than "starter."


Zach Lavine is 20 years old.  Rodney Hood is 23 years old.  This seems to be a factor you've overlooked.

Nurkic had a decent rookie season, but he's also already 21, and he's a more traditional paint big man without a jumper at a time when the bar for success in that role has been set much higher.  His scoring efficiency in that role, even as a rookie, is concerning.  His defensive numbers as a rookie might have been the most promising thing for him, which is interesting because he was heralded as more of an offensive-minded post-up guy, but it's hard to know what to make of numbers garnered on that awful Nuggets squad.

The Nurkic and Hood selections for me, along with obviously most of the construction of the rankings outside of Wiggins/Parker, greatly depended on how I felt -- independent of tangible data -- about the prospects at the time of the draft and now. I actually wasn't in love with Nurkic before the draft, but after watching him a few times last year, I like him now more than I do LaVine (who I was also down on), injury and all. Always really liked Hood, like him more after watching him a dozen times or so over the past year, so he gets the benefit of the doubt while LaVine doesn't.

The problem with this is that I asked the question way too early on purpose, to see which guys are in fans' dog house (like LaVine is in mine despite great play), and which guys are fans irrationally high on (like I am Nurkic, despite his injury).


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2015, 01:58:44 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182


The problem with this is that I asked the question way too early on purpose, to see which guys are in fans' dog house (like LaVine is in mine despite great play), and which guys are fans irrationally high on (like I am Nurkic, despite his injury).

Fair enough.

For me, I suppose Payton might be the one in my "doghouse" because while he puts up numbers, he's just too Rondo-ian in his inability to shoot, hit free throws, or even finish inside all that well.

I wouldn't like him at all as a lottery pick if I were a fan of the Magic, but he's obviously got some potential and has had some impressive games.


If I'm "irrationally high" on somebody, it might be TJ Warren.  He's not a young sophomore, but he's finally getting a chance to play a significant role in that Phoenix offense, and he's starting to get going.  I wouldn't be shocked to see him finish the season averaging 14 or 15 points a game.   Dude can score.  If we do a re-draft a year from now, I might not be surprised to find Warren in the second tier.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2015, 02:08:13 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2586
  • Tommy Points: 343
1. Wiggins
2. Smart
3. Randle
4. Nurkic
5. Lavine
6. Clarkson
7. Peyton
8. Exum
9. Gordon
10. Parker
11. Powell


I can't fathom why you have Parker so low, but do you mean Dwight Powell? That's pretty interesting to me. He looks great this season, but he was 23 years old on draft day. How much upside do you think he has? If he is peaking now but will play at about this level for 4-5 more years, is that worth pick 11?

I'm fascinated by the Powell thing. If he were still on the Celtics, would he be getting any minutes?






Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2015, 02:23:53 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
1. Wiggins
2. Smart
3. Randle
4. Nurkic
5. Lavine
6. Clarkson
7. Peyton
8. Exum
9. Gordon
10. Parker
11. Powell


I can't fathom why you have Parker so low, but do you mean Dwight Powell? That's pretty interesting to me. He looks great this season, but he was 23 years old on draft day. How much upside do you think he has? If he is peaking now but will play at about this level for 4-5 more years, is that worth pick 11?

I'm fascinated by the Powell thing. If he were still on the Celtics, would he be getting any minutes?

Parker is overrated. He is and will be a mediocre defender unless be builds much better body. 

And what position also will he defend? 


Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2015, 02:32:54 PM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7840
  • Tommy Points: 770
I don't think there are many people outside of Celtic fans that would rank Smart over Elfrid Payton right now. Payton is averaging 11ppg 7apg 5rpg for a Magic team that is currently 6-4. His shooting percentages aren't good but neither are Smart's.

I love Smart and I think he'll wind up having the better career but based on what they've accomplished so far, Payton ranks higher.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008, 2024

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2015, 02:44:13 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4100
  • Tommy Points: 419
I don't think there are many people outside of Celtic fans that would rank Smart over Elfrid Payton right now. Payton is averaging 11ppg 7apg 5rpg for a Magic team that is currently 6-4. His shooting percentages aren't good but neither are Smart's.

I love Smart and I think he'll wind up having the better career but based on what they've accomplished so far, Payton ranks higher.

None of those numbers are accurate.  He isn't even averaging ten points and the Magic are 5-6

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2015, 02:49:26 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34680
  • Tommy Points: 1603
I don't think there are many people outside of Celtic fans that would rank Smart over Elfrid Payton right now. Payton is averaging 11ppg 7apg 5rpg for a Magic team that is currently 6-4. His shooting percentages aren't good but neither are Smart's.

I love Smart and I think he'll wind up having the better career but based on what they've accomplished so far, Payton ranks higher.

None of those numbers are accurate.  He isn't even averaging ten points and the Magic are 5-6
looks like he took per36 and not his actual numbers based on his 31 minutes a game.
2025 Historical Draft - Cleveland Cavaliers - 1st pick

Starters - Luka, JB, Lebron, Wemby, Shaq
Rotation - D. Daniels, Mitchell, G. Wallace, Melo, Noah
Deep Bench - Korver, Turner

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2015, 02:53:28 PM »

Offline max215

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8448
  • Tommy Points: 624
I think Capela would go quite early.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2015, 02:53:31 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2586
  • Tommy Points: 343

Parker is overrated. He is and will be a mediocre defender unless be builds much better body. 

And what position also will he defend?

I think that you are taking the common criticism of Parker's weaknesses to an illogical extreme. Offensively, he is such an elite prospect- so skilled but also crazy strong, crazy smart, and more explosive than people seem to acknowledge... he's going to score and draw fouls like few others. He will continue be compared to Paul Pierce and Carmelo Anthony as a pro. I'd much rather bet on a player like that to learn how to play respectable defense and round himself out than bet on, say, Zach Lavine to figure out how to make a leap in every respect (except the literal one-- he can jump really nice, haha).

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2015, 02:55:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
The Bucks have been just fine defensively with Parker on the floor.

He's legit.

More concerning might be his lack -- so far -- of an outside shot.  Combined with Giannis and Monroe, that poses some problems for the Bucks.  Their spacing is just ... not good.  But the inside scoring and rebounding with that trio is already really good, and the potential is really exciting.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2015, 03:27:18 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
I've been thinking about this question for a while and tried to hold off attempting to answer it until a little more time passed. Couldn't hold off after Smart's exciting night against OKC. The answer to this question will change over the next 3-5 years, but it's still interesting to gauge how teams did about 16 months after the 2014 draft.

Here's my top 10:

1) Andrew Wiggins -- still looking like a stud, still has some questions, not much has changed. Haven't been able to watch much TWolves games over the last 90 or so regular season games, but it seems like Wiggins is a more aggressive scorer at this stage than some thought he could be, while not quite the all-around player (rebounds, assists, etc.). My guess is once he learns how to tally 20 points in his sleep, things like his rebounding average will go up.

2) Jabari Parker -- Parker's stock should have probably sunk after an ACL injury in just his first season, but when Parker's played ball, he's looked good, and no other rookie besides Wiggins has performed consistently head and shoulders above Parker to justify ignoring Parker's still-existent franchise player potential.

3) Marcus Smart -- this is where things become really interesting. There's a lot of contenders behind Wiggins and Parker for the third slot, but none have really separated themselves from one another. Here's my reasoning: guys like Rodney Hood and Jordan Clarkson have been phenomenal in the box score, but both are two years older than Smart and the latter plays on a pathetic team that gives him greater opportunity to shine. Dante Exum is going to miss his entire sophomore campaign and already has the dreaded "injury-prone" tag. If he didn't go down, I'd probably put him here. Aaron Gordon looks really good this season, but he almost never saw the court last year and he's still playing suspiciously low minutes for a guy who has supposedly great potential playing on a bad team. Payton can fill up the stat sheet and, unlike most others, has played consistent minutes since day 1. But, it's been on a very bad team; additionally, without a jumper, he can only be so effective in today's NBA. It was a difficult choice between Smart and Jusuf Nurkic, but Nurkic's significant injury bumps him down a peg. Smart, meanwhile, has earned a starting position on a playoff team, is recognized around the league to be a game-changing defensive player, and his offense looks like it's ready to come around. He's a capable long range shooter and is starting to show some of that skill going to the hoop that we heard about so much after drafting him. The dream of him being a 3-5x All-Star and perennial DPOY candidate is not dead by any means. That alone earns him the 3rd spot.

4) Jusuf Nurkic - going a bit out on a limb here to make things interesting. This kid's only 21 and has shown the ability to be a force on the boards and on the defensive side of the ball at the 5 spot. He has a lot of offensive skills too, and had some impressive nights on the offensive end. We'll see what he can do at full health.

5) Aaron Gordon -- Matrix-esque potential, but his offensive ability outside the paint is limited. So far his incredible ball-handling skills for a player his size haven't paid off. He's still young -- a bit younger than Smart, even -- but it's unclear if he's going to be Andrei Kirilenko or Shawn Marion. The former is still a great player to have -- even if you spend the #4 pick getting him -- but Gordon has some work to do in order to evolve into the elite talent some believe he can be. Again, accounting for Scott Skiles being Orlando's coach, I still don't understand why Gordon isn't playing more.

6) Dante Exum -- not much to say. Looked really good over the summer, earned the starting job last year (with defensive ability that was not talked about much before the draft), poised to take the next step. Just needs to get healthy.

7) Elfrid Payton -- young, starting, producing. So what's the problem? The same that kept Rondo from ever taking that final leap into top 5 player status, and one that made his recovery from ACL surgery incredibly difficult without being able to rely on his usual breathtaking athleticism: a jumper. Now, if Payton could ever become the player Rondo was in his prime, that's still worthy of being picked in the top 3. The trick? Reversing NBA trends back 5-6 years when a jumper wasn't as critical, and, surrounding himself with three future HOFs and one of the NBA's best low post defenders.

8 ) Rodney Hood -- I really like Hood, but he's 23. He's probably got 1-2 years left of growth left in him before he is what he is. Still, no one in Utah is complaining about adding a Luol Deng type on the wing with a better jump shot by using a non-lotto pick.

9) Jordan Clarkson -- probably going to catch heat from the "objective" crowd for putting Clarkson this low, but this seems fair to me. Got a lot of hype last year because he was the only thing Laker fans could cheer for. Tremendous ability to score the basketball and has versatile size, but there's not much else to love. He's a poor distributor with a terrible A/TO ratio, doesn't rebound the ball well for his size, and he's old for his class -- 23. Still gotta hand it to the Fakers for getting a really good player with the 46th pick.

10) Julius Randle -- this one was tough. Again getting a lot of hype because he's a Laker, which positively (for the Lakers) distorts the average fan's perception of him (tough not to think he's going to be a star when Dirk says he's going to be). Tons of offensive skills -- already one of the better distributing big men in the league -- and can hold his own on the boards. Not too worried about his shooting... most rookies don't shoot all that efficiently their first time around the block. But his defense is very concerning and the injury red flag he came into the league with is probably even more red after suffering a season-ending injury in just his first year. Still young -- 6 months younger than Smart -- so his potential earns him a temporary stay in the top 10.

Honorable mentions: McDermott, LaVine, TJ Warren, Gary Harris, Clint Capela, Bogdan Bogdanovic

Guys who could have more of a say in this conversation 2-3 years from now: the honorable mentions + Embiid, Noah Vonleh, Dario Saric, James Young, Tyler Ennis, Bruno Caboclo, Mitch McGary, Nikola Jokic

Others whose stocks have risen but will probably never crack the top 10: Shabazz Napier, Kyle Anderson, KJ McDaniels, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Glenn Robinson III, Markel Brown Dwight Powell.

What's your top ten?
I think you might have Nurkic too high and Gordon too low, but I'd say Smart is definitely in the top 6 still in a re-draft.

I've been impressed with Gordon.  To answer your question on why he's not playing more, check any Orlando Magic forum.  They are livid about it and think Scott Skiles hates young players.  It's more-so that he was injured during pre-season and that the guy playing ahead of him, Evan Fournier, is averaging 19 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal with 46%/36%/81% shooting... They are playing Fournier 38 minutes per night.  Doesn't make much sense to bench a guy when he's playing that well.  Gordon will inevitably get his shot.  He just turned 20 a couple months ago.  I still rank him ahead of Smart as a prospect.   

I also think Randle is too low based on his potential.  I get why you'd draft him under someone like Jordan Clarkson... I don't agree. 

Also I'm not exactly sure where he'd fall in a re-draft, and this probably isn't going to surprise anyone, but I haven't completely forgotten about Joel Embiid yet.  There's some point in this draft where his upside still gets him selected... probably not as high as he was taken, though. 

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2015, 03:34:51 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867

Parker is overrated. He is and will be a mediocre defender unless be builds much better body. 

And what position also will he defend?

I think that you are taking the common criticism of Parker's weaknesses to an illogical extreme. Offensively, he is such an elite prospect- so skilled but also crazy strong, crazy smart, and more explosive than people seem to acknowledge... he's going to score and draw fouls like few others. He will continue be compared to Paul Pierce and Carmelo Anthony as a pro. I'd much rather bet on a player like that to learn how to play respectable defense and round himself out than bet on, say, Zach Lavine to figure out how to make a leap in every respect (except the literal one-- he can jump really nice, haha).

Parker is like a taller Boris Diaw. Overrated per where he got drafted but still a good player on some established team down the line.

Re: 2014 Re-Draft: The Top Ten
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2015, 03:38:10 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182

Parker is like a taller Boris Diaw.

Statements like this just call into question everything else you might say about assessing NBA players.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain