Observation From Last Night's Loss to Pacers

[dwoumn]

As much as I love IT4 coming off the bench, I think this game may force CBS to start him next to AB. IT knows how to get his but early and late he was looking to get AB involved in the offense. I'm loving this new aggressive AB but there are a few things he needs to clean up like the bad TO's in the paint. But this backcourt is small but could have some success.

RJ Hunter needs mins in this rotation. Not knowing how long Smart is going to be out, CBS needs to find mins for RJ. Defensively he did have some miscues but at least he can be a 3-point threat and can ball alongside both IT and ET as they are dominate ball handlers.

The C's are having more success when they are attacking the rim. Our guards are doing a much better job of attacking the gaps and getting to the rim. IT, Smart and AB have been pretty successful at this leading to a bucket, a foul or an opportunity for the bigs to get an offensive rebound for a easy putback.

We don't have the outside shooting to run this read and react pace and space offensive. We knew this last year and we didn't add anyone to change that. The other thing with this offensive is down the stretch who do you want the ball in their hands? For 15 years we were spoiled to see Paul Pierce have the ball late in the game, we don't have that nowadays. It's been down by committee late last year and this year but we need that person on this team if its IT, AB, Smart, Sully getting the ball constantly down that stretch.

Something that is common in the other read and react pace and space offensives (Spurs and Hawks) is the element of posting up. Spurs have multiple players from multiple positions being able to post up and beat there defenders. We occasionally post up but it's to get a guard usually AB open on a screen from the weakside. I would love to see our bigs, Sully and Amir especially post up more. ET needs to get back on the block and he can do some damage. Smart's size and strength can allow him to post up on on some of the guards.

Last night especially we got out hustled and out worked last night on the glass and 50-50 balls. That is something that needs to be cleaned up ASAP. Too many times are bigs are not in the best position or even boxed out to get the rebounds. It's the little things that can either help or hurt us.

I hate to point someone out but I have to do it. Jae Crowder defensively killed us last night against the Pacers. Two plays stand out to me one in each half while guarding PG-13. In the first half he stunted on a strong side P&R to the man (I believe it was Lavoy Allen at the high post), leaving PG-13 open in the corner for a 3. Monta Ellis made a great pass to PG-13 for the wide-open 3. PG-13 is a bigger threat than Allen so that was a bad decision to stunt. The other play was the other wide-open 3 that put the Pacers up 8 late in the 4th quarter. Monta Ellis runs a P&R with Jordan Hill and gets to the middle when Crowder is covering PG-13 on the weak side. PG-13 slides from wing to baseline and gets a pass from Ellis for the big 3. Crowder just loss where PG-13 was and was in no mans land on the play. This is not the Crowder we watched and loved from last year he needs to step it up.

It has not been good early this season but I have faith in CBS and this C's team to figure out their mistakes and start to get some wins.

Any other thoughts or observation from last night games?

[Moranis]

Actually it is very much the exact same Crowder.  He isn't a good team defender and never has been.  His on ball defense is good (though vastly overrated on this board), but he is always lost in space.

[PhoSita]

Actually it is very much the exact same Crowder.  He isn't a good team defender and never has been.  His on ball defense is good (though vastly overrated on this board), but he is always lost in space.

Jae Crowder is a little bit like Corey Brewer in that respect -- never quite as good in overall impact as you'd expect given how good he looks at times.  You look at his stats and expect them to be better after watching him play.

[PhoSita]

We don't have the outside shooting to run this read and react pace and space offensive.

...

Something that is common in the other read and react pace and space offensives (Spurs and Hawks) is the element of posting up. Spurs have multiple players from multiple positions being able to post up and beat there defenders.

Really like these observations.  Spot on.

I don't think our big men are really suited to posting up, except when there's a mismatch down low.  Just not their strength.


It would really help us if Crowder, Smart, and Olynyk could develop into reliable, consistent shooting options to help space the floor.  That would help this offense so much.  I imagine that must be part of Ainge and Brad's vision.

So far it hasn't materialized.  Kelly is still inconsistent and his shot isn't falling nearly as often as you'd expect.  Smart has been up and down with his shot, and now he's injured.  And Crowder is building a brick house.

[dwoumn]

We don't have the outside shooting to run this read and react pace and space offensive.

...

Something that is common in the other read and react pace and space offensives (Spurs and Hawks) is the element of posting up. Spurs have multiple players from multiple positions being able to post up and beat there defenders.

Really like these observations.  Spot on.

I don't think our big men are really suited to posting up, except when there's a mismatch down low.  Just not their strength.


It would really help us if Crowder, Smart, and Olynyk could develop into reliable, consistent shooting options to help space the floor.  That would help this offense so much.  I imagine that must be part of Ainge and Brad's vision.

So far it hasn't materialized.  Kelly is still inconsistent and his shot isn't falling nearly as often as you'd expect.  Smart has been up and down with his shot, and now he's injured.  And Crowder is building a brick house.

I think that's our biggest problem with our bigs. There was one play Tommy pointed out during the Raptors game when Olynyk had a smaller guy on him and he faced up in the post only to turn the ball over. This is when he should have backed the guard down and made a strong move to the rim.

None of our bigs except maybe Sully have a post up game. I think we could have an advantage if our bigs knew that they could face up and attack the big defenders off the dribble on the post. Just trying to make a post move probably won't work out best.

[Evantime34]

1. As much as I love IT4 coming off the bench, I think this game may force CBS to start him next to AB.

2. RJ Hunter needs mins in this rotation.

3. The C's are having more success when they are attacking the rim.

4. We don't have the outside shooting to run this read and react pace and space offensive. We knew this last year and we didn't add anyone to change that.

5. Last night especially we got out hustled and out worked last night on the glass and 50-50 balls. That is something that needs to be cleaned up ASAP. Too many times are bigs are not in the best position or even boxed out to get the rebounds. It's the little things that can either help or hurt us.

6. I hate to point someone out but I have to do it. Jae Crowder defensively killed us last night against the Pacers.


Any other thoughts or observation from last night games?

So I numbered the things I wanted to respond to so it's easier to read.
1. Disagree. Although he did play well he played best in the 2nd half like he normally does. The team actually struggled to score the ball to start the game. I think if you bring him off the bench he produces similarly well in the second half but comes out and scores immediately when he is the first sub in the game. I just like Smart in there to start because for better or worse/until we draft Ben Simmons Smart is the future.

2. Completely agree. All the minutes Rozier played should have been replaced with Hunter playing time (while Turner ran the point). That charge call against him was garbage and the foul called on him when he contested Glen Robinson was also trash.

3. Absolutely. The problem is they run a lot of lineups with two bigs who spend all their time around the paint, which clogs the lane and makes it harder to drive. We need to go small or put Olynyk/Jerebko at the 4 often to get better spacing.

4. Not sure what kind of system we should run in lieu of the read and react system. We certainly don't have the players to iso. I think Olynyk will start hitting 3's and it will open things up for us.

5. I didn't think it was so much that we got out hustled and more that our rotations weren't crisp. Almost every offensive board they got was a result of our big man coming out to contest then no one boxing out his man. Better defensive rotations will clean this up and I expect that to happen progressively the later it gets in the season.

6. Crowder is pretty aggressive but I think some of times he got beat if his teammate helped him out the problems wouldn't be as bad. Honestly, he's our best option at the 3 so we are stuck.

My other observations
1. Zeller is trash and should be out of the rotation
2. Our offense works best when we have one ball handler, 3 shooters and guy to roll to the hoop. Too often we are playing two roll/post men which is clogging up the paint.
3. Smart is our best player, I think if he plays we win that game. Probably because we rotate better on defense and rebound better.
4. I'm nervous that Stevens won't shorten the rotation until Danny takes it out of his hands and moves some guys.

[kozlodoev]

None of our bigs except maybe Sully have a post up game.

The biggest problem with our bigs (and most of our roster, really) is they don't know what they are. This is partially a problem of individual players who don't understand playing to their strengths, but also of Brad S. because he has completely failed to install any semblance of a scheme which aids with optimal use of roleplayers.

[PhoSita]

None of our bigs except maybe Sully have a post up game.

The biggest problem with our bigs (and most of our roster, really) is they don't know what they are. This is partially a problem of individual players who don't understand playing to their strengths, but also of Brad S. because he has completely failed to install any semblance of a scheme which aids with optimal use of roleplayers.

On one hand, I think it's a little bit unfair to Brad because it's always difficult for role players to shine when there are no stars to do the heavy lifting.  That has a tendency to result in role players being asked to do too much, or being put in situations where they are bound to struggle due to their inherent limitations.

On the other hand, I agree that Brad's constant changing of the rotation and tinkering with lineups has to make it difficult for guys to to know on a night to night basis what their role will be or should be.  Sometimes I think less is more.  Brad needs to be willing to just pick 9 or 10 guys and stick with them, even if there are more players he thinks have "earned" playing time. 

This isn't high school, or even college.  The goal is to win games, not run a meritocracy.  It may help manage personalities on the team to reward hard workers on the bench with playing time, but I think it can easily go the other way where so many guys lack a clearly defined role and they struggle as a result.  That can only lead to turmoil.

When you combine that with the fact that so many guys on this team are playing for their next contract or for a long term place on the team, it starts to feel like we're just holding a 12 man tryout for the starting lineup.


Tyler Zeller, much maligned around here lately due to his awful start, is a good example of this.  I like Zeller.  I think he's a very nice backup center, and if he's put in a role that suits his skillset, he can shine.  He showed that last year, as he was one of the most productive players on the team despite playing 20 minutes a game or so.  Zeller is a lot like another young big man I like, Mason Plumlee, in that he can look really good in a good situation and borderline useless in a bad one.

[Hemingway]

Here are my 2 cents- and really it goes for all the games not just the Pacers game. First we are sloppy with passing the ball. too many turnovers, to many passes not getting to the right spot or not quick enough. The other thing is rebounding. We are not even trying to box anyone out.

[Rosco917]

I hate to say it...Soon your gonna see Turner in the starting lineup, for better or worse, he creates more offense than Crowder, not to mention he's a better passer.

On the subject of our bigs...it's Amir, and then a crystal ball to see who's gonna give you an all-around game. After Amir we don't have a single big that plays good on both sides of the ball. It has to be a challenge for CBS to keep plugging holes in the front court. 

[Quetzalcoatl]

SF and C are such glaring holes for us, it's going to be awhile before we fill them.  Amir and Jae are top notch backups, but they're obviously never going to be championship team starters.  I don't know how we can fix these this season.  We need Lee off the books and a good pick or two.

[Evantime34]

SF and C are such glaring holes for us, it's going to be awhile before we fill them.  Amir and Jae are top notch backups, but they're obviously never going to be championship team starters.  I don't know how we can fix these this season.  We need Lee off the books and a good pick or two.

Good thing that both these will happen after the season is over.

[D Dub]

As much as I love IT4 coming off the bench, I think this game may force CBS to start him next to AB.

starting 5'9 next to 6'1 isn't really sustainable in this league. 

the problem is that, despite all this guard depth-- they are kind of mismatched.  in reality, BOTH Bradley and Thomas should be energy guys off the bench.  but again, the size thing when they play together is really tough defensively. 

that said, I like the starting 5 with marcus/ab/crowder.  our team defense stats are impressive. 

[Chris22]

As much as I love IT4 coming off the bench, I think this game may force CBS to start him next to AB.

starting 5'9 next to 6'1 isn't really sustainable in this league. 

the problem is that, despite all this guard depth-- they are kind of mismatched.  in reality, BOTH Bradley and Thomas should be energy guys off the bench.  but again, the size thing when they play together is really tough defensively. 

that said, I like the starting 5 with marcus/ab/crowder.  our team defense stats are impressive.

We are small and weak.

[Celtics4ever]

I hope we see less of the David Lee and Sully combo, it is potent on offense, but potent for other teams offense as well.