Should CBS add RJ or Terry to the rotation this early in the season?

[crimson_stallion]

RJ Hunter I think is a tougher one to justify.  He's struggled a bit with his offense so far, and it might take him some time to get his shot flowing in the NBA - this seems to be a pretty common thing for shooters coming out of College (e.g. Reddick, Stauskas, McDermott).  So far his greatest contribution has been with his defense and his playmaking, but those aren't really the things we're struggling with right now.

Reddick shot 39% from three as a rookie, the other two shot around 32%.

Must have been thinking of somebody else - but I know Stauskas, McDermott and a number of other prospects who were seen as great 'pure shooters' have struggled when they first entered the league.

Also, while 32% from three is quite acceptable for a rookie in general, it's definitely underwhelming for a prospect who's primary selling point is their pure shooting ability.  I'd have to label that as 'struggling'. 

[SHAQATTACK]

I really have more confidence in RJ than most of the Celtics except IT when it comes to threes

RJ ....understands when to take the three ......many of our players take ill advised threes.

I think the problem is ... What is the coach suppose to say when the Rookie comes in and kicks butt .......then you have more issues of hurt feelings .    I think Stevens knows the kid can play .....he is surely better shot than Lee , Zeller or Crowder.......his offense would help.

I d put him in.......after Smart and IT ....I trust RJ to make the play and take the shot .

[PhoSita]

Just another thing about playing these two--NONE of our backcourt players is shooting even 40%!  None shooting 3's over 33%.  And we're worried about our rooks not being ready??

Our shooting has been bad overall so far, it's true.

The Celts are a team that relies on outside shooting pretty heavily (as do most teams nowadays), but they don't have any players who are particularly dangerous, or even particularly consistent, from deep.

[Neurotic Guy]

I really have more confidence in RJ than most of the Celtics except IT when it comes to threes

RJ ....understands when to take the three ......many of our players take ill advised threes.

I think the problem is ... What is the coach suppose to say when the Rookie comes in and kicks butt .......then you have more issues of hurt feelings .    I think Stevens knows the kid can play .....he is surely better shot than Lee , Zeller or Crowder.......his offense would help.

I d put him in.......after Smart and IT ....I trust RJ to make the play and take the shot .

The only players I don't cringe immediately when they throw up 3's are AB and KO.  I feel like they both have that range and even though Kelly hasn't been hitting them I think it's eventually going to be a legit part of his game -- so I like to see him shoot them. 

When IT (when he's open, I'm OK with him taking it), Marcus, Sully, Amir, ET, JC, JJ, etc. square up for a three, I invariably exhale a big "NO".

[kne]

Everyone in this thread seems to ignore the fact that Brad Stevens and his staff see the rookies play in practice all the time. Do you really think they saw them dominate the current rotation and decided to hold them back just to spite us fans (and Danny, for that matter)?

[crimson_stallion]

I really have more confidence in RJ than most of the Celtics except IT when it comes to threes

RJ ....understands when to take the three ......many of our players take ill advised threes.

I think the problem is ... What is the coach suppose to say when the Rookie comes in and kicks butt .......then you have more issues of hurt feelings .    I think Stevens knows the kid can play .....he is surely better shot than Lee , Zeller or Crowder.......his offense would help.

I d put him in.......after Smart and IT ....I trust RJ to make the play and take the shot .

The only players I don't cringe immediately when they throw up 3's are AB and KO.  I feel like they both have that range and even though Kelly hasn't been hitting them I think it's eventually going to be a legit part of his game -- so I like to see him shoot them. 

When IT (when he's open, I'm OK with him taking it), Marcus, Sully, Amir, ET, JC, JJ, etc. square up for a three, I invariably exhale a big "NO".

I understand when it comes to Sully, ET and JC.  Those guys have been mediocre shooters through most (if not all) of their careers.

Not sure why you cringe when Smart, Amir and JJ take the shots though. 

* Smart made almost 2 threes a game at just under 34% last year - not good numbers, but decent

* Jonas has shot a combined 40% from three in the past two seasons (2013/14 and 2014/15)

* Amir has shot a combined 35% from three over four seasons (from 2011/12 to 2014/15), shot 40% last year, and is shooting 40% so far this year

Jerebko and Johnson seem to only take the three when they are pretty much wide open, and I'm very confident in them taking that shot when they are.

Smart takes more than his share of questionable three point attempts (contested, better shot available, etc) so he does make me cringe sometimes - but then he also tends to be one of the best on this team at making contested threes, so I can live with it.  Ditto Thomas. 

But definitely - Sully, Turner and Crowder really have no business taking the three point shot ever.  The only time I make an exception is when the shot clock is about to run down and they have no choice but to launch a three to beat the clock - otherwise don't even think about it.

[crimson_stallion]

Everyone in this thread seems to ignore the fact that Brad Stevens and his staff see the rookies play in practice all the time. Do you really think they saw them dominate the current rotation and decided to hold them back just to spite us fans (and Danny, for that matter)?

No, we don't ignore that at all. All through the off-season everybody on the team was gushing about how much Rozier was impressing the team with his athleticism, his play and his work ethic.  Mickey had a mention or two as well for how he was performing in practice. 

I think it's just a natural reaction for just about ANY coach who wants to win games to (by default) play the guys who are experienced and proven contributors from the get-go.  Then if the rookies want to win some of that playing time away from the vets, they'll need to prove their worth on the court, when the opportunities present themselves (garbage time, etc). 

I don't think any rookie on a team this deep is going to get gifted easy minutes.  Rookies will naturally have to work harder to earn minutes than the vets do, because the vets have already proven they can produce in the league and earned their share of respect.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and to start the season I would surely do the same thing.  But if I got 7 or 8 games in and found that the guys who are out there just aren't getting it done, then I would happily throw Rozier / Mickey out there and say "lets see what you can do" just to mix things up.

[Alleyoopster]

Depends I guess on how the team goes.

Over the first three games our D has been rock solid, but our offense has really struggled.  That could just be due to early season jitters (chemistry, conditioning, etc) or it could be because we simply don't have enough scorers.  We'll find out which of those is true once we get up in the 7 or 8 games played range I would say.

If we get to that point and we are STILL struggling to put points on the board, then I would very seriously consider giving a few minutes (even if its just 6-8 mins a night) to Rozier and seeing how he goes. 

Rozier likely has the highest upside as a scorer of anybody on this team (not named Isaiah Thomas) and with his aggressiveness, swagger and athleticism he is the type of guy who could potentially be a great "instant offense" guy.  In preseason he was on of our most effective (and efficient) scorers when given the playing time, and didn't seem to have any problems getting his shot off against NBA defenders - even if it was only against the likes of Philly/Brooklyn/NY, that's still enough to convince me he's worth a shot.

RJ Hunter I think is a tougher one to justify.  He's struggled a bit with his offense so far, and it might take him some time to get his shot flowing in the NBA - this seems to be a pretty common thing for shooters coming out of College (e.g. Reddick, Stauskas, McDermott).  So far his greatest contribution has been with his defense and his playmaking, but those aren't really the things we're struggling with right now.

I'd also seriously consider giving Mickey some spot minutes from time to time.  So far teams have been killing us on the boards, and we have struggled against teams that have a strong inside presence (e.g. Spurs and Sixers both gave us a hard time in the paint).  It kinda feels like our interior defense really struggles when Amir Johnson isn't on the court, and I'd like to see what Mickey can provide in terms of his rim protection, rebounding, and potentially even some P&R offense.

If we continue to struggle in these areas, I wouldn't mind moving Amir Johnson into the starting lineup with Zeller or Sully (I think both combos would work well) and then trying Mickey + Olynyk on the second unit (which I also think would work well).

I feel Mickey (rebounding, shot-blocking) and Rozier (explosive speed and aggressive scoring) have some NBA-level skills right now that we as a team could use, so I wouldn't mind seeing both of those guys get a bit of action.

Great analysis...TP

I'm not sure I would say the D has been rock solid all the time. (Most of the time...I would agree.)  Okafor couldn't be stopped once he got it going.  Same with LaMarcus in the last game.  I'd like to see Stevens give Mickey a shot at guarding the hot shooting forwards from time to time.  Just to  find out what he can do.  Same with Rozier he'd make it uncomfortable for some guards to get to their spots. 

Your points about Rozier and Hunter are right on.  Someone posted a comparison between Rozier and Hunter before the last preseason game.  Terry came out way ahead. 

Hopefully, Rozier and Mickey will get playing time as the season progresses.  They bring a lot of energy to the game.

[crimson_stallion]

Okafor couldn't be stopped once he got it going.  Same with LaMarcus in the last game.  I'd like to see Stevens give Mickey a shot at guarding the hot shooting forwards from time to time.  Just to  find out what he can do.  Same with Rozier he'd make it uncomfortable for some guards to get to their spots.

I agree.

The biggest question marks people seem to have about Mickey is the lack of size to defend NBA bigs. 

At the draft combine Mickey measured at 6'8" and 238 lbs, so he is not at all a 'lightweight'.  He also measured at only 7% body fat which suggests he either has a very solid frame, or else he has  a lot more muscle than people acknowledge.  In either scenario, I suspect he'll be able to take more of a beating in the NBA than people seem to think.  He is no Jajuan Johnson.

Likewise, Mickey measured a 7'3" wingspan, 8'10" max reach, 33" no-step vertical and 38" Max vertical.  The man can really get up, and his combination of length and athleticism means he should be able to challenge the shots of guys who are significantly taller than he is (much like Josh Smith and Elton Brand, who were both defensive beasts when at their physical peaks).

Factor in his relative quickness/mobility and he should be able to defend quicker PF's and C's just as capably.

Then throw in his outstanding motor / work ethic.

I think that if Mickey can learn to be disciplined on defense (not biting on pump fakes, etc) then he has the potential to be the best defensive big man on this team...as a rookie. 

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Mickey 3 years from now looking like Biyombo on defense/boards, and Brandon Bass on offense. 

If you imagine a Biyombo who can score off jumpers/P&R, or a Brandon Bass who can rebound and block shots...either of those hypothetical players would be a pretty good starter in this league.

[chambers]

Ainge is trying to trade Evan Turner right now, it's just a matter of time until someone needs his expiring deal for a playoff insurance wing. I wouldn't be surprised if Zeller or Amir go out either- particularly Amir if a playoff team loses a starting big man to injury.

Unfortunately for Rozier he's probably going to have to wait a while until we find a taker for Avery Bradley- which might not happen till draft night if we try and send out Bradley with one of our million picks for some kind of return.

But yeah, I don't think we'll see either of them until Turner or Bradley goes and that might not be till after the All Star break at the earliest. I doubt Ainge lets Turner walk for nothing but yeah, it's possible.
If that happens, Hunter won't get much time until next season.

[tarheelsxxiii]

I'm not sold Mickey's an NBA player and Rozier has the tallest task of the 3 at running PG before (any of them) are ready for this level. RJ would benefit from spot minutes though, and it'd be informative to see what he does with them. His IQ is high enough, taken together with his length and shooting potential, to make spot minutes worthwhile and arguably helpful. Just my 2 pennies.

[LooseCannon]

Unfortunately for Rozier he's probably going to have to wait a while until we find a taker for Avery Bradley- which might not happen till draft night if we try and send out Bradley with one of our million picks for some kind of return.

Bradley isn't blocking Rozier from playing time, Smart and Thomas are.  If Bradley was traded today, I predict Smart would be the starting PG and Thomas would still be coming off the bench.

[crimson_stallion]

I'm not sold Mickey's an NBA player and Rozier has the tallest task of the 3 at running PG before (any of them) are ready for this level. RJ would benefit from spot minutes though, and it'd be informative to see what he does with them. His IQ is high enough, taken together with his length and shooting potential, to make spot minutes worthwhile and arguably helpful. Just my 2 pennies.

Rozier is a scorer, and is the only one of those three guys who really capable of creating his own offense. He also received (by far) the most praise from current guys on the Celtics roster. This suggests to me that he is the guy most capable of earning minutes.

Mickey is a rim protector who can defend multiple positions, and a rebounder.  Two things we have (so far) been desperately lacking.  He's currently held up by our obviously overcrowded front-court, but if a trade were to happen that thins that out I can see him being the second guy earning minutes.

Hunter...I like what I see from him, but I just don't think he's ready for NBA minutes.  I think he can contribute right away on defense, but I don't think he's yet at the level of being NBA ready offensively.  He struggled offensively in both the Summer League and in Preseason - and while he ultimately did put up decent scoring numbers, his percentages were terrible.

Rozier and Mickey were the most effective of the three in the preseason, which involves legit NBA caliber competition.  That tells me that they are the two guys who are the most NBA-ready.

Hunter has the benefit of playing the position we are weakest at (SG/SF), but I'm not convinced he offers enough to justify playing him over guys like Crowder, Turner and Jerebko.  At least not yet. 

[chambers]

Unfortunately for Rozier he's probably going to have to wait a while until we find a taker for Avery Bradley- which might not happen till draft night if we try and send out Bradley with one of our million picks for some kind of return.

Bradley isn't blocking Rozier from playing time, Smart and Thomas are.  If Bradley was traded today, I predict Smart would be the starting PG and Thomas would still be coming off the bench.

I think if Bradley is traded it certainly opens up minutes for Rozier.
IT can still come off the bench, Rozier will just slide into spot minutes for both IT and Smart.
Stevens doesn't necessarily believe in point guard and shooting guard separation and as long as there are two athletic guards on the court that can shoot and play defense (and handle the ball), then there would be minutes for Rozier as the 3rd/4th guard with Hunter.
I think you'd see some new bench line ups featuring Rozier playing with Smart. Given Rozier is an inch shorter than Bradley, but with significantly longer arms, there's no reason why Smart+Rozier couldn't guard PGs/SG's in switches.
It would also give us another penetrating wing without being a liability on the defensive end.
But yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree on a departing of Bradley giving Rozier more minutes because I think he'd 100% get some real time on the floor.

[tarheelsxxiii]

I'm not sold Mickey's an NBA player and Rozier has the tallest task of the 3 at running PG before (any of them) are ready for this level. RJ would benefit from spot minutes though, and it'd be informative to see what he does with them. His IQ is high enough, taken together with his length and shooting potential, to make spot minutes worthwhile and arguably helpful. Just my 2 pennies.

Rozier is a scorer, and is the only one of those three guys who really capable of creating his own offense. He also received (by far) the most praise from current guys on the Celtics roster. This suggests to me that he is the guy most capable of earning minutes.

Mickey is a rim protector who can defend multiple positions, and a rebounder.  Two things we have (so far) been desperately lacking.  He's currently held up by our obviously overcrowded front-court, but if a trade were to happen that thins that out I can see him being the second guy earning minutes.

Hunter...I like what I see from him, but I just don't think he's ready for NBA minutes.  I think he can contribute right away on defense, but I don't think he's yet at the level of being NBA ready offensively.  He struggled offensively in both the Summer League and in Preseason - and while he ultimately did put up decent scoring numbers, his percentages were terrible.

Rozier and Mickey were the most effective of the three in the preseason, which involves legit NBA caliber competition.  That tells me that they are the two guys who are the most NBA-ready.

Hunter has the benefit of playing the position we are weakest at (SG/SF), but I'm not convinced he offers enough to justify playing him over guys like Crowder, Turner and Jerebko.  At least not yet.

I agree with ya in general.
-Rozier has the highest ceiling
-Mickey has NBA shot-blocking/altering talent
-Hunter would likely struggle offensively, even in spot minutes

My global take is that Rozier is fighting the biggest uphill battle if for no other reason than it's [dang] hard for a rookie to step into the PG role on a playoff team with a lot of pieces. He's very green, though -- handles are sometimes loose, decision-making is not going to be there for quite some time (naturally), and just like Smart, it'll be a while before he figures out how he can be successful on the offensive end at this level. All to be expected. But I have high hopes for him -- expect nothing less than AB-type development, and that's a major compliment. I have more respect for that kid than any one on this roster -- he turned himself into a fine NBA despite his lack of size and a lack of natural offensive attributes & talents.

Mickey is tough for me to latch onto just yet because he showed signs of being TO-prone in college, and more than anything, he's really undersized for his position. He, like all 3 imo, have the mentality to succeed at the highest level, I'm just concerned b/c he did struggle in college to keep up with smaller guys laterally, and at this level, he'd really struggle in the post with his current size. Not sure how he'll cater his offensive game to the NBA, but he does have some talent there... just imagine it'll be a steep learning curve.

I argued a while ago that Hunter would benefit more from spot mins with the team than D-league reps because I do feel strongly that there's a subset of guys who significantly elevate their game when playing with superior players. His IQ for his age/experience is noticeably very high, and to speak to your point about Rozier's flattery from teammates, I noticed several vets checking in on the court with Hunter during preseason games... which also suggests to me they see an IQ beyond his years and believe he's capable of making contributions. He has clearly struggled offensively early on and I've interpreted that as he not really being sure where he fits best at this level... seeing more off-the-dribble pull-ups from him now than in college, and believe he's just going to have to find his niche... how he can benefit his team most effectively on that end.

Even spot minutes are wishful thinking, I admit, and don't doubt for a second CBS knows what he's doing. I'd just enjoy to see him get some minutes here and there (and due to our offensive woes at SG and SF, as you pointed out... along with his IQ and seeming confidence) and believe it'd be interesting and possibly helpful for him to start getting reps sooner than later. We talk a lot about chronological age here, but there's something (more, imo) to be said for developmental age too.