Preseason Celts-Knicks game observation

[Tr1boy]

1.  Sullinger is on the verge of becoming a third stringer.   Even though he looks like he lost some weight, he looks slower than how he was last season.  Looks weaker too.   So now he is in a bad area where he is still kind of inefficient from the outside but also can't muscle some shots he was able to in the past

2.  David Lee -  Tonight we saw the version I thought we were going to get when GSW traded him away.  Has lost a step.  Had all kinds of trouble against length today. Avg defender.  Not a reliable shooter.  If it's between Lee and Zeller, Zeller has the edge.  Lee as the season moves on, will get buried deeper in the bench imo. But in certain games will help the team by scoring 15 pts grab 8 rebounds. He just won't be able to do this consistently

3.  Amir, Zeller, KO, Jerebko and Mickey are the 5 guys i'm comfortable with upfront. Comfortable playing on a regular basis.   Mickey had a solid game tonight. Other than the 1st game from SL, he has been nothing but solid for a 1st year rookie.   Definitely is not making rookie mistakes or been outplayed by vets.    Amir plays as advertised.  Zeller and KO have improved from last season. Jerebko is Jerebko and plays with alot of energy. Also nice to see him produce a little from the SF spot

4.  I don't like having  Turner and IT on the court at the same time. The ball is stuck to their hands and everyone else are like standing around.  They should not play together as much as possible.

5. RJ Hunter keeps surprising out there on the court.  More than a 3 pt specialist. Could also play some backup point

6. Smart not playing had a pretty noticeable impact tonight


 

[Surferdad]

Not sure I agree on a couple of points.

1. I see no evidence that Sully is weaker.  He is still a strong rebounder and certainly is tough enough to go right at Kyle O'Quinn multiple times in a row. Where is the evidence that he is weaker?

2. Lee just had an off-night. He does a lot of other good things out there like outlet passing. I see no basis to predict he will get buried on the bench.

I'm okay with your other points.

[LarBrd33]

It will be interesting to see how this team plays when matched up against teams not widely expected to be bottomfeeders (or Euro teams without NBA talent). 

I have two broad conflicting thoughts.

1.  When Brad was hired we heard a lot about his special assistant who obsesses over numbers.  I got the sense they look at every possible combination of players and all sorts of advanced analytics to determine the best possible combinations and plays in any given situation.  You can't do that without lots of data, though... so it requires lots of experimenting.  That can somewhat explain the chaotic lineups in pre-season and the early part of the year... and can also explain why a team like Boston might start the season slow like last year.

2.  It wasn't until Boston had several trades and was hit with a few injuries that the lineup cleared up and roles became more defined.  Was part of that Brad figuring out what works... or was part of it the players finding some chemistry without the nutty chaotic lineup shifts?  I worry a little about this roster being too overloaded with mediocrity.  It's going to be hard for guys to get a rhythm if there's lots of nightly roster shifts.   A few hiccups early could cause the players to lose faith and things to snowball in a bad way.  But maybe it's all part of the method.

[Tr1boy]

Not sure I agree on a couple of points.

1. I see no evidence that Sully is weaker.  He is still a strong rebounder and certainly is tough enough to go right at Kyle O'Quinn multiple times in a row. Where is the evidence that he is weaker?

2. Lee just had an off-night. He does a lot of other good things out there like outlet passing. I see no basis to predict he will get buried on the bench.

I'm okay with your other points.

Sully shot 1-8 and looked avg to bad on the defensive end.   He hasn't even had one really good game this pre season except for one against a near NBDL team.   Things look worse than how he played last season. Actually one of his best seasons so far in his short career was his 1st season.  He kept it simple, took punishment in the offensive boards to get O rebounds, tip ins etc.  He doesn't really do this anymore.   

This is not the only off game Lee has had so far.  How many off games is he allowed?  And the thing is, he is trying out there.   Having him start and play alot of mins will end up becoming a detriment for this team imo

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Not sure I agree on a couple of points.

1. I see no evidence that Sully is weaker.  He is still a strong rebounder and certainly is tough enough to go right at Kyle O'Quinn multiple times in a row. Where is the evidence that he is weaker?

2. Lee just had an off-night. He does a lot of other good things out there like outlet passing. I see no basis to predict he will get buried on the bench.

I'm okay with your other points.

Sully shot 1-8 and looked avg to bad on the defensive end.   He hasn't even had one really good game this pre season except for one against a near NBDL team.   Things look worse than how he played last season. Actually one of his best seasons so far in his short career was his 1st season.  He kept it simple, took punishment in the offensive boards to get O rebounds, tip ins etc.  He doesn't really do this anymore.   

This is not the only off game Lee has had so far.  How many off games is he allowed?  And the thing is, he is trying out there.   Having him start and play alot of mins will end up becoming a detriment for this team imo

I don't believe you, this was only Lee's 3rd game with us and I think the first 2 he was pretty good (I think he avg a dbl dbl the first 2 or close to it).

[Surferdad]

Not sure I agree on a couple of points.

1. I see no evidence that Sully is weaker.  He is still a strong rebounder and certainly is tough enough to go right at Kyle O'Quinn multiple times in a row. Where is the evidence that he is weaker?

2. Lee just had an off-night. He does a lot of other good things out there like outlet passing. I see no basis to predict he will get buried on the bench.

I'm okay with your other points.

Sully shot 1-8 and looked avg to bad on the defensive end.   He hasn't even had one really good game this pre season except for one against a near NBDL team.   Things look worse than how he played last season. Actually one of his best seasons so far in his short career was his 1st season.  He kept it simple, took punishment in the offensive boards to get O rebounds, tip ins etc.  He doesn't really do this anymore.   

This is not the only off game Lee has had so far.  How many off games is he allowed?  And the thing is, he is trying out there.   Having him start and play alot of mins will end up becoming a detriment for this team imo

I don't believe you, this was only Lee's 3rd game with us and I think the first 2 he was pretty good (I think he avg a dbl dbl the first 2 or close to it).

Agree on Lee.

On Sully, I was only responding to your use of the word weaker.  I agree he had a bad shooting game.

[Tr1boy]

Where does Lee compare against NBA calibre players?  He definitely lost his position to Draymond Green.   He couldn't even beat out Ezeli when Ezeli cameback from injuries last season.  Again , against certain matchups he will give you the performances needed for wins.  But as an everyday thing now, I'm not going to expect alot.

[Evantime34]

1.  Sullinger is on the verge of becoming a third stringer.   Even though he looks like he lost some weight, he looks slower than how he was last season.  Looks weaker too.   So now he is in a bad area where he is still kind of inefficient from the outside but also can't muscle some shots he was able to in the past

2.  David Lee -  Tonight we saw the version I thought we were going to get when GSW traded him away.  Has lost a step.  Had all kinds of trouble against length today. Avg defender.  Not a reliable shooter.  If it's between Lee and Zeller, Zeller has the edge.  Lee as the season moves on, will get buried deeper in the bench imo. But in certain games will help the team by scoring 15 pts grab 8 rebounds. He just won't be able to do this consistently

3.  Amir, Zeller, KO, Jerebko and Mickey are the 5 guys i'm comfortable with upfront. Comfortable playing on a regular basis.   Mickey had a solid game tonight. Other than the 1st game from SL, he has been nothing but solid for a 1st year rookie.   Definitely is not making rookie mistakes or been outplayed by vets.    Amir plays as advertised.  Zeller and KO have improved from last season. Jerebko is Jerebko and plays with alot of energy. Also nice to see him produce a little from the SF spot

4.  I don't like having  Turner and IT on the court at the same time. The ball is stuck to their hands and everyone else are like standing around.  They should not play together as much as possible.

5. RJ Hunter keeps surprising out there on the court.  More than a 3 pt specialist. Could also play some backup point

6. Smart not playing had a pretty noticeable impact tonight

1. I think he is going to start the season as a third stringer, but he will get more minutes in certain situations. Even though he wasn't great on offense tonight, we were getting killed on the boards and he helped with that.

2. I agree Lee had problems with length tonight, but I think there are specific lineup combinations that mitigate that. To me, Lee has looked the best when he gets to run the offense through the high post. Playing with Isaiah prevents him from running the offense. This is why I like him as a starter with Smart, and in the second unit lead by IT.

4. Turner has a lot more driving lanes when he is on the court with IT, suddenly the mid range jumpers off the dribble become drives to the hoop, maybe they weren't great together tonight but I think they work well with each other.

[GetLucky]

Where does Lee compare against NBA calibre players?

About equal to Rondo from the looks of things 

[Tr1boy]

1.  Sullinger is on the verge of becoming a third stringer.   Even though he looks like he lost some weight, he looks slower than how he was last season.  Looks weaker too.   So now he is in a bad area where he is still kind of inefficient from the outside but also can't muscle some shots he was able to in the past

2.  David Lee -  Tonight we saw the version I thought we were going to get when GSW traded him away.  Has lost a step.  Had all kinds of trouble against length today. Avg defender.  Not a reliable shooter.  If it's between Lee and Zeller, Zeller has the edge.  Lee as the season moves on, will get buried deeper in the bench imo. But in certain games will help the team by scoring 15 pts grab 8 rebounds. He just won't be able to do this consistently

3.  Amir, Zeller, KO, Jerebko and Mickey are the 5 guys i'm comfortable with upfront. Comfortable playing on a regular basis.   Mickey had a solid game tonight. Other than the 1st game from SL, he has been nothing but solid for a 1st year rookie.   Definitely is not making rookie mistakes or been outplayed by vets.    Amir plays as advertised.  Zeller and KO have improved from last season. Jerebko is Jerebko and plays with alot of energy. Also nice to see him produce a little from the SF spot

4.  I don't like having  Turner and IT on the court at the same time. The ball is stuck to their hands and everyone else are like standing around.  They should not play together as much as possible.

5. RJ Hunter keeps surprising out there on the court.  More than a 3 pt specialist. Could also play some backup point

6. Smart not playing had a pretty noticeable impact tonight

1. I think he is going to start the season as a third stringer, but he will get more minutes in certain situations. Even though he wasn't great on offense tonight, we were getting killed on the boards and he helped with that.

2. I agree Lee had problems with length tonight, but I think there are specific lineup combinations that mitigate that. To me, Lee has looked the best when he gets to run the offense through the high post. Playing with Isaiah prevents him from running the offense. This is why I like him as a starter with Smart, and in the second unit lead by IT.

4. Turner has a lot more driving lanes when he is on the court with IT, suddenly the mid range jumpers off the dribble become drives to the hoop, maybe they weren't great together tonight but I think they work well with each other.

#3 is a decent point.   

[SHAQATTACK]

1.  Sullinger is on the verge of becoming a third stringer.   Even though he looks like he lost some weight, he looks slower than how he was last season.  Looks weaker too.   So now he is in a bad area where he is still kind of inefficient from the outside but also can't muscle some shots he was able to in the past

2.  David Lee -  Tonight we saw the version I thought we were going to get when GSW traded him away.  Has lost a step.  Had all kinds of trouble against length today. Avg defender.  Not a reliable shooter.  If it's between Lee and Zeller, Zeller has the edge.  Lee as the season moves on, will get buried deeper in the bench imo. But in certain games will help the team by scoring 15 pts grab 8 rebounds. He just won't be able to do this consistently

3.  Amir, Zeller, KO, Jerebko and Mickey are the 5 guys i'm comfortable with upfront. Comfortable playing on a regular basis.   Mickey had a solid game tonight. Other than the 1st game from SL, he has been nothing but solid for a 1st year rookie.   Definitely is not making rookie mistakes or been outplayed by vets.    Amir plays as advertised.  Zeller and KO have improved from last season. Jerebko is Jerebko and plays with alot of energy. Also nice to see him produce a little from the SF spot

4.  I don't like having  Turner and IT on the court at the same time. The ball is stuck to their hands and everyone else are like standing around.  They should not play together as much as possible.

5. RJ Hunter keeps surprising out there on the court.  More than a 3 pt specialist. Could also play some backup point

6. Smart not playing had a pretty noticeable impact tonight

Agree with these ...way I saw it tonight too.....but not sure when everybody gets up to snuff ,  get their playing legs ,  touches back ,  and feel for each other .  It will all shake down exactly like this .

It's still way to early to tell for sure but .......I got tell ya,   Hunter , Mickey and Rozier are dang near as good as all but about guys on the rest of the team.  Only  Smart, Lee , Amir , AB , IT and maybe Zeller  ....possibly KO are clearly better than the THREE just drafted Rookies.

I think CBS is seeing all the spots Hunter might fill in at .....at various times in the game.......where can he be used to get off a last second shot most effectively .   

Hunter s height would be hard to deal with if he can have shorter guards on him .   

He maybe taking a lot of last sec shots if not this year definetly next .   With Mickey rebounding .

[Csfan1984]

Gotta say I enjoyed Walden, Hunter, Young, Sully and Mickey playing together at the end. Lots of learning for them. I think it's the best part of preseason.

So the good
-Hunter and Young duo. Feel they are starting to show flashes of chemistry, as in two shooters on opposite sides of the floor. RJ may be pushing Young or Young is just getting more comfortable. Regardless of what it is both looked good tonight. Exciting to see flashes from both in the same game. I know some fans lack patience and want to choose to develop/play Hunter and move Young. But we honestly need both to develop. Having two shooters at wings can do wonders for the offense.

-Mickey continues to impressive maybe its time to give him some better competition to see how real it is. Get him in the game earlier.

-Zeller was an offensive juggernaut. The guy can score quickly.

The middle
IT, AB, KO, Sully, Walden, Jerekbo all were slightly below average in some part of their game. But not horrible. Just an off night I felt.

The bad was mostly combos not the players.
-AJ and Lee combo I didn't like. They need more PT chemistry. Seems AJ is effective when asked to be outside or inside but could find the spots with Lee. Lee is good from high post or at the 3pt line then needs to slash/cut to the hoop which confuses spacing for AJ. You could also see both struggled on D tonight. AJ with 5 TOs as well. Know a lot of posters wanted to see this combo and it failed first attempt.

-IT and Turner combo also didn't work too well. Which is a combo I wanted to see. Both have to believe in taking the open look after the other creates. They are too ball dominant. If they hesitate to shoot or simply pass they just get as many TOs as Fts along with some bad shots. IT was still better with sharing and taking his shots. But they didn't adapt their games.

[Tr1boy]

Gotta say I enjoyed Walden, Hunter, Young, Sully and Mickey playing together at the end. Lots of learning for them. I think it's the best part of preseason.

So the good
-Hunter and Young duo. Feel they are starting to show flashes of chemistry, as in two shooters on opposite sides of the floor. RJ may be pushing Young or Young is just getting more comfortable. Regardless of what it is both looked good tonight. Exciting to see flashes from both in the same game. I know some fans lack patience and want to choose to develop/play Hunter and move Young. But we honestly need both to develop. Having two shooters at wings can do wonders for the offense.

-Mickey continues to impressive maybe its time to give him some better competition to see how real it is. Get him in the game earlier.

-Zeller was an offensive juggernaut. The guy can score quickly.

The middle
IT, AB, KO, Sully, Walden, Jerekbo all were slightly below average in some part of their game. But not horrible. Just an off night I felt.

The bad was mostly combos not the players.
-AJ and Lee combo I didn't like. They need more PT chemistry. Seems AJ is effective when asked to be outside or inside but could find the spots with Lee. Lee is good from high post or at the 3pt line then needs to slash/cut to the hoop which confuses spacing for AJ. You could also see both struggled on D tonight. AJ with 5 TOs as well. Know a lot of posters wanted to see this combo and it failed first attempt.

-IT and Turner combo also didn't work too well. Which is a combo I wanted to see. Both have to believe in taking the open look after the other creates. They are too ball dominant. If they hesitate to shoot or simply pass they just get as many TOs as Fts along with some bad shots. IT was still better with sharing and taking his shots. But they didn't adapt their games.

the last point. 

Both guys are kind of hogs. Not the best spot up shooters either. 

The hoggins is not a bad thing. Every team one or two that can hog, score their own baskets etc.

But playing these two won't work well imo.  I don't see Turner staying a Celtic after this season.

[Csfan1984]

Yeah many said it before but I was hoping based on the way both guys talk their play would change to reflect the team goals and lineup. They just play their typical preferred style of play regardless.

[Greyman]

I haven't read too much into the other preseason games and this one is no different. Lots of experimenting going on. Poor form from individual players is also a little bit less of a worry at this point, but it is significant and could determine, in part, the futures of some players in a crowded roster.