was rozier drafted just in case

[PhoSita]

Thomas is a good but not great player on a great contract.  He's one of the few guys we have who'd make a very useful piece in acquiring a great player.  I'm sure we'd be happy to keep him if we can but realistically he's more likely to be shipped off if we have a chance to make the big deal we're angling toward.

How valuable is Thomas as a trade piece, really?  At the deadline this past year, he was worth an expiring and a late 1st.  Part of the valuation of him at that time was the fact that two teams in the span of a year had decided to move on from him, apparently due to questions about his defense and willingness to play in a supporting / bench role.

If Thomas continues to succeed with the Celtics, his value might rise somewhat, but do you think other teams will really see him much differently than they did at the deadline this past season, or last off-season? 

I think Thomas is what he is, and though his contract is arguably a great value, I think it also represents the value the league places on him.  Useful in the right situation, but volatile and perhaps not content to the play the role for which he is best suited on a good team.  He's happy with the Celtics now because he's the undisputed #1 option.  A team that might trade for him probably won't be looking to use him that way.

[Csfan1984]

Rozier was drafted so that Ainge could trade Isaiah Thomas further down the road.

I don't really think this is how Ainge drafts.


I think Rozier was taken because Ainge went through his first, second, and third options -- trading up to the top of the draft (Okafor), trading into the top 10 (Winslow), trading a few spots up to take a wing with upside (Oubre) -- and found himself sitting at #16 despite his best efforts. 

At that spot, he went with the type of player he felt most confident projecting to the NBA: a shooting-deficient, defense-first combo guard.  In short, a prototypical Ainge pick.

In that situation, left with a selection of less than ideal options, the "best player available" was the one he felt most comfortable betting on to making it as a role player at the NBA level.

That comes off at as a DA trollish knock. He has taken plenty of offense first guys Al, Green, Sully, KO, Hunter, West, Thornton, and so on. Other than AB, TA and Smart not a lot of Defense first combo guards left that he has drafted. And those three are elite NBA defenders so why complain. He felt Rozier had the most potential and he always believes he can make a trade and move stacked talent if need be. He did not panick and take what he knows will be a role player.

[Boris Badenov]

Thomas is a good but not great player on a great contract.  He's one of the few guys we have who'd make a very useful piece in acquiring a great player.  I'm sure we'd be happy to keep him if we can but realistically he's more likely to be shipped off if we have a chance to make the big deal we're angling toward.

How valuable is Thomas as a trade piece, really?  At the deadline this past year, he was worth an expiring and a late 1st.  Part of the valuation of him at that time was the fact that two teams in the span of a year had decided to move on from him, apparently due to questions about his defense and willingness to play in a supporting / bench role.

If Thomas continues to succeed with the Celtics, his value might rise somewhat, but do you think other teams will really see him much differently than they did at the deadline this past season, or last off-season? 

I think Thomas is what he is, and though his contract is arguably a great value, I think it also represents the value the league places on him.  Useful in the right situation, but volatile and perhaps not content to the play the role for which he is best suited on a good team.  He's happy with the Celtics now because he's the undisputed #1 option.  A team that might trade for him probably won't be looking to use him that way.

I think he increased his value last year.

For one, his productivity on the C's was significantly higher than his previous. His per-36 scoring and assists were 26.4/7.5 with the same efficiency (compared to his recent averages of around 22/6). Say what you want about his defense but offensively those are elite (the only other guys who put up per-36 numbers like that are Curry, Harden, Durant, Westbrook and Lebron)

PER, win shares and OBPM were up. Small sample, etc. but the numbers are pretty amazing for a 20-game stretch.

Second, he did that as the #1 option, which he hadn't really done before.

I'm not sure how much these things would matter to a trade partner, but I think he's more valuable now than he was before we acquired him.

[PhoSita]

PER, win shares and OBPM were up. Small sample, etc. but the numbers are pretty amazing for a 20-game stretch.

Second, he did that as the #1 option, which he hadn't really done before.

I'm not sure how much these things would matter to a trade partner, but I think he's more valuable now than he was before we acquired him.

I agree, though I think that's partly because his value was depressed at the time we acquired him (that's probably why we acquired him).

Still, as you say, his numbers have improved because he's been used as a number one option, playing major minutes.

How many teams in the league are going to be interested in using him that way?  Coming off a season as a top option averaging 20 points and 6 assists for the Kings, nobody wanted to sign him to be a starter.

Has Isaiah done anything to make other teams think he could be a full time starter?  Will other teams see him as a potential top option of a really good team?

Looking at the way he performed in the playoffs against top shelf competition, I think the answer is probably not.

[Csfan1984]

Thomas is a good but not great player on a great contract.  He's one of the few guys we have who'd make a very useful piece in acquiring a great player.  I'm sure we'd be happy to keep him if we can but realistically he's more likely to be shipped off if we have a chance to make the big deal we're angling toward.

How valuable is Thomas as a trade piece, really?  At the deadline this past year, he was worth an expiring and a late 1st.  Part of the valuation of him at that time was the fact that two teams in the span of a year had decided to move on from him, apparently due to questions about his defense and willingness to play in a supporting / bench role.

If Thomas continues to succeed with the Celtics, his value might rise somewhat, but do you think other teams will really see him much differently than they did at the deadline this past season, or last off-season? 

I think Thomas is what he is, and though his contract is arguably a great value, I think it also represents the value the league places on him.  Useful in the right situation, but volatile and perhaps not content to the play the role for which he is best suited on a good team.  He's happy with the Celtics now because he's the undisputed #1 option.  A team that might trade for him probably won't be looking to use him that way.

Of course Thomas has good value. You even admit he boosted his value from the Suns. Thomas was a FA that was sought after. If DA didn't have a inside track to Phx I doubt he lands Thomas for what he did. Now I can see only three teams going after him Nets, Knicks and Jazz. If there are injuries to a PG that is on a team that is offense led PG teams like Wiz, Raps, Clips, Hornets, Bulls, Warriors and so on he will have high value with them as well. Thomas has great value.

And sorry if looks like I'm targeting ya PhoSita, it's only coincidence that I don't like these two post. I agree with ya on plenty of stuff.

[PhoSita]

Of course Thomas has good value. You even admit he boosted his value from the Suns. Thomas was a FA that was sought after.

I'd say the fact that Thomas had to settle for his current contract suggests otherwise.

He boosted his value since he was traded by the Suns, but I'd say that his value has simply returned to where it was before he flamed out after just half a season with a team that snapped him up for a bargain contract toward the end of the previous free agency period.

My question is whether other teams are really likely to see him any differently now than they did when he hit free agency after averaging 20 points and 6 assists for the Kings.  Despite putting up those numbers, nobody was interested in signing him to be a starter, even on a bargain deal.  He had to settle for a sixth man role. 

I think that's his role in this league moving forward, and I think there's a cap on how much teams are willing to give up to acquire a sixth man.

[Csfan1984]

Of course Thomas has good value. You even admit he boosted his value from the Suns. Thomas was a FA that was sought after.

I'd say the fact that Thomas had to settle for his current contract suggests otherwise.

He boosted his value since he was traded by the Suns, but I'd say that his value has simply returned to where it was before he flamed out after just half a season with a team that snapped him up for a bargain contract toward the end of the previous free agency period.

My question is whether other teams are really likely to see him any differently now than they did when he hit free agency after averaging 20 points and 6 assists for the Kings.  Despite putting up those numbers, nobody was interested in signing him to be a starter, even on a bargain deal.  He had to settle for a sixth man role. 

I think that's his role in this league moving forward, and I think there's a cap on how much teams are willing to give up to acquire a sixth man.

Yet that wasn't what he was sold by Phx. He was told he would start with Dragic with Bledsoe being a hold out and likely to be traded. I also mention the teams that would want Thomas.

[Tr1boy]

Rozier was drafted because he reminds Danny of himself. 

Danny is a big fan of tough players with high motor. These qualities edge out skills and talent in his eyes

[PhoSita]

Of course Thomas has good value. You even admit he boosted his value from the Suns. Thomas was a FA that was sought after.

I'd say the fact that Thomas had to settle for his current contract suggests otherwise.

He boosted his value since he was traded by the Suns, but I'd say that his value has simply returned to where it was before he flamed out after just half a season with a team that snapped him up for a bargain contract toward the end of the previous free agency period.

My question is whether other teams are really likely to see him any differently now than they did when he hit free agency after averaging 20 points and 6 assists for the Kings.  Despite putting up those numbers, nobody was interested in signing him to be a starter, even on a bargain deal.  He had to settle for a sixth man role. 

I think that's his role in this league moving forward, and I think there's a cap on how much teams are willing to give up to acquire a sixth man.

Yet that wasn't what he was sold by Phx. He was told he would start with Dragic with Bledsoe being a hold out and likely to be traded. I also mention the teams that would want Thomas.

I don't think you mentioned any teams that would be interested in Isaiah as a long term starter, which is kind of my point.

[littleteapot]

Rozier was drafted because he reminds Danny of himself. 

Danny is a big fan of tough players with high motor. These qualities edge out skills and talent in his eyes

This is sadly probably true. But Danny knows he's a champion because he brought these qualities to a team that already had tall guys who could score and defend and he has to get some of those guys at some point.

[Csfan1984]

Of course Thomas has good value. You even admit he boosted his value from the Suns. Thomas was a FA that was sought after.

I'd say the fact that Thomas had to settle for his current contract suggests otherwise.

He boosted his value since he was traded by the Suns, but I'd say that his value has simply returned to where it was before he flamed out after just half a season with a team that snapped him up for a bargain contract toward the end of the previous free agency period.

My question is whether other teams are really likely to see him any differently now than they did when he hit free agency after averaging 20 points and 6 assists for the Kings.  Despite putting up those numbers, nobody was interested in signing him to be a starter, even on a bargain deal.  He had to settle for a sixth man role. 

I think that's his role in this league moving forward, and I think there's a cap on how much teams are willing to give up to acquire a sixth man.

Yet that wasn't what he was sold by Phx. He was told he would start with Dragic with Bledsoe being a hold out and likely to be traded. I also mention the teams that would want Thomas.

I don't think you mentioned any teams that would be interested in Isaiah as a long term starter, which is kind of my point.

Define your idea of Long term? To me that is just three years in the NBA as dynamics change and players are moving all the time. The three first teams I mentioned could use him right now as a starter for three years they have no one better. And IMO no team can consider any PG a long term starter unless he is a top 5 PG. And if you have one of those you aren't trading him unless you are the owner-less Hornets. You always have to be looking at upgrading to the top. So talking value as a PG that you can actually trade for Thomas has great value.

[littleteapot]

Define your idea of Long term? To me that is just three years in the NBA as dynamics change and players are moving all the time. The three first teams I mentioned could use him right now as a starter for three years they have no one better. And IMO no team can consider any PG a long term starter unless he is a top 5 PG. And if you have one of those you aren't trading him unless you are the owner-less Hornets. You always have to be looking at upgrading to the top. So talking value as a PG that you can actually trade for Thomas has great value.

A lot of teams could get better by trading something of value for Thomas. But the mentality around the league is "he's a 5'10'' bench scorer, we can just pick up Darren Collison for nothing if we need that." I don't agree with this mentality, but it's the mentality of most teams we're trying to trade with.

There's a reason Phoenix got nothing for Thomas or Dragic last year.

[Tr1boy]

Rozier was drafted because he reminds Danny of himself. 

Danny is a big fan of tough players with high motor. These qualities edge out skills and talent in his eyes

This is sadly probably true. But Danny knows he's a champion because he brought these qualities to a team that already had tall guys who could score and defend and he has to get some of those guys at some point.

He didn't find anyone at 16 that had the skills to edge out toughness/ motor Rozier brought

Danny otherwise was looking to move up and grab Winslow.  Another tough player

[littleteapot]

He didn't find anyone at 16 that had the skills to edge out toughness/ motor Rozier brought

Danny otherwise was looking to move up and grab Winslow.  Another tough player

Did Golden State win the championship because of toughness?

No, they won it because they're long at 2-5 and their 1 may be the best shooter of all time. And part of the reason they got the core to surround Steph with was that they got a lot of players other teams wanted. Even if Smart, Thomas, Bradley and Rozier turn in to this beautiful core of guards, they aren't going to win without size, and we're unlikely to be able to trade one of them for a quality forward or center.

[PhoSita]

Define your idea of Long term?

Longer than half a season.  In other words, not just a replacement for an injured starter.