So would you have rather traded for Isaiah or had a top 8-12 pick?

[chambers]

Not in a million years...

I can't think of a single player in that range who is likely to become as good as Thomas.  A guy as good as Thomas I wouldn't trade for any draft pick outside the top 5...and even then it would depend on the draft.  This draft was (IMO) nothing special, so I probably wouldn't consider anything outside of top 2.

This is something I could never agree with.  Isaiah Thomas is net minus defensive player. He's a great little scorer off the bench but he's not a championship piece. Could he start on a championship team? Yes. Would opposing coaches like Greg Popovich/Rivers/Blatt be able to exploit that match up very easily? Yes.

Lou Williams beat Isaiah Thomas for 6th man of the year. Yes, Lou Williams.
I don't want to take anything away from IT, but to say he's untradeable for anything outside a top 5 pick is irrational (to me).

Here's the question:
Who has the potential to be a multiple All Star in the NBA and/or a starting caliber two way NBA player... when comparing:

Isaiah Thomas
Justise Winslow
Stanley Johnson
Myles Turner

[chambers]

You guys are assuming we would lose a lot more games without IT. Sure he played very well, but we had turned things around before he got here. Some of you are missing the option that we don't trade for IT and we still end up drafting the same guys. And I'm not trying to take away from IT.

But I don't watch college ball so I don't know about the rookies until they play in the NBA. Given Ainge's track record I'll just assume the moves he makes are smart.

Also after offering MJ 3 picks Ainge did say something like he was glad it got turned down or that in the heat of the moment he offered up more than he wanted. I think that trade offer was an outlier and not the norm when factoring value for trades.

No, I'm assuming we'd lose at least 3 more games without IT. Because 3 more losses is what it took to get Winslow in this years draft at 37 wins.

Ainge can say whatever he wants after the trade was turned down.
You could also say that he was in recovery mode and needed to strengthen his future trade positions by publicly saying he was glad the trade failed-it's what I'd do. Now every GM knows what Danny was willing to give up for a player he loved, and they'll potentially use it against him.
Danny would have been absolutely shattered that he couldn't get Winslow with all those picks. A guy who was projected by many people to easily go in the top 5 picks and fell to #10.

Don't forget that trading for Thomas after the season had ended was probably always going to be an option.

[chambers]

Winslow / Stanley Johnson / Miles Turner


IT is just another Ricky Davis / Dino Radja / Dana Barros / Sherman Douglas.   Entertaining scoring piece while we wait for the franchise to find a cornerstone again.

I maintain, though, that the major deciding point in making the playoffs was keeping Bass and exchanging Prince for Jerebko and Datome,  instead of just waiving both.

I don't see how the guys you mentioned above are any different.  Winslow has mediocre written all over him.  Stanley Johnson should be a good player, but not a star - Ron Artest is about his ceiling.  i doubt Miles Turner will ever be a big star - though he likely has the best chance out of those three.

I really wasn't that impressed by this draft...I don;'t think there are many guys in there who will turn out better than Thomas, or who will offer more impact than Thomas.

One thing you need to consider is what the player brings, relative to our needs.  Isaiah Thomas offers us a go-to scorer who can get to the line, stretch the floor, and close out games with his clutch shooting.  He also offers us a true spark plug to carry our second unit.  These are all things that we desperately needed on this team.

Neither Winslow, Turner or Johnson are likely to offer the same.   They might contribute in other ways and fill other holes, but what's the point in giving up a player at a role of need, in order to pick up another player at another role of need?  One step forward, one step back.  You're going nowhere.

Thomas isn't a superstar of course, that's why we got him, and why we got him on such a great contract.  But he gives us something we need desperately, and if we traded him out and didn't get another go-to scorer in return then we would suffer for it in the Win column.

I don't know how much college basketball you watch but Winslow in particular was heralded as an already excellent defender with the athleticism and basketball IQ (and left hand) that could one day result in a star player.

Think about it like this, if you could trade Justise Winslow right now for Isaiah Thomas, you're saying you wouldn't pull the trigger? Because by going by what Danny attempted to give up for Winslow, he would have 100% made that deal.

[PhoSita]

I'm with chambers on this one; I like Isaiah a lot. I find him very entertaining to watch. But I think you really over rate his net  impact if you think he's a key building block moving forward.

  Likewise, I think you really underrate this most recent draft if you think none of the guys in the 8-10 range have the talent to become building blocks, even if none of them is a star.

[Celtics18]

Last year's Celtics might have snuck into the playoffs even without Isiah Thomas. 

[rollie mass]

intangibles for isiah, he draws fouls like a magnet,frustrates bigs,i watched winslow in summer league lets see what happens when he plays crowder or smart
in college some guys have mature physiques and the pros are a great leveler
isiah is a one off and brings the fans too their feet-as entetainment you can't get much better-

[rollie mass]

intangibles for isiah, he draws fouls like a magnet,frustrates bigs,i watched winslow in summer league lets see what happens when he plays crowder or smart
in college some guys have mature physiques and the pros are a great leveler
isiah is a one off and brings the fans too their feet-as entetainment you can't get much better-

isiah got beat for best 6th because he played for multiple teams last season, a 20pt per game scorer in limited minutes and just needs to be plugged in-
one of the best little men and looking to be the best-
the guy sells tickets as he electrifies the crowd-another intangibale

[chambers]

intangibles for isiah, he draws fouls like a magnet,frustrates bigs,i watched winslow in summer league lets see what happens when he plays crowder or smart
in college some guys have mature physiques and the pros are a great leveler
isiah is a one off and brings the fans too their feet-as entetainment you can't get much better-

isiah got beat for best 6th because he played for multiple teams last season, a 20pt per game scorer in limited minutes and just needs to be plugged in-
one of the best little men and looking to be the best-
the guy sells tickets as he electrifies the crowd-another intangibale

rollie you quoted yourself lol. You are pretty awesome so that's okay.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think Isaiah Thomas will be part of the next true contending Celtics team? Does he get us closer to an NBA championship?
The only way I think he does is if we trade him as part of a package for a real star.
He would be a great 6th man on a championship team, but as Phosita said, he's not a building block.

[chambers]

Last year's Celtics might have snuck into the playoffs even without Isiah Thomas.

They went 18 and 11 after acquiring IT including a 5-1 run in April before the playoffs where he averaged 21 points on over 50% shooting (mainly from the line). We beat the Cavs twice, the Raptors, Pacers and won 1 of 2 vs the Bucks...he also scored 34 points in a must win game vs Detroit lol.

I think it's fair to say that we lose another 3 games without IT over his 21 games stretch for the Celtics where he was our top scorer by a very wide margin at 19 points a game. Bradley + Sully were the closest with 13.5 points a game....

[Eja117]

Kinda revisionist cherry picking. Nobody knew those guys would last to those picks or have such good summers.

IT could still easily end up a better player than every one of them and on a very good contract and seems to actually want to be here.

It is revisionist cherry picking but no one's claiming it's anything else.

Question:
If we know what we know now, would we have traded for IT or not?

We don't know what would have happened. We definitely should have still traded for IT

[krumeto]

I'd still go the Ainge route:
- get IT with a late 1st rounder of which you have plenty. IT is on such a reasonable contract that you can always flip him for the same or better.
- in case he helps the team get to the playoffs, package a tonne of picks (cause we have more than a tonne of those) trying to move up. Chances are if you overpay, you will get a deal done.

There was absolutely no guarantee IT would be available later. With that contract and the situation in PHO, somebody else would have given up a pick to get him.

Now, if Ainge had not caught Charlotte's management in a minor case of dementia, we would have had Winslow AND IT, and a lot less 1st rounders. The discussion would then be if Winslow is worth it.

MJ did not agree (still cannot believe it) , Riley would never agree. Well, stuff happens. Still, it was not a bad plan.

[rollie mass]

intangibles for isiah, he draws fouls like a magnet,frustrates bigs,i watched winslow in summer league lets see what happens when he plays crowder or smart
in college some guys have mature physiques and the pros are a great leveler
isiah is a one off and brings the fans too their feet-as entetainment you can't get much better-

isiah got beat for best 6th because he played for multiple teams last season, a 20pt per game scorer in limited minutes and just needs to be plugged in-
one of the best little men and looking to be the best-
the guy sells tickets as he electrifies the crowd-another intangibale

rollie you quoted yourself lol. You are pretty awesome so that's okay.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think Isaiah Thomas will be part of the next true contending Celtics team? Does he get us closer to an NBA championship?
The only way I think he does is if we trade him as part of a package for a real star.
He would be a great 6th man on a championship team, but as Phosita said, he's not a building block.

total accident at first the quoted post did not post,but the way you put that is funny,
alot of luck and help from cleavland  brought us into the playoffs-but tell me what the promotion of brad stevens is worth in terms of getting a star or near star
lee jumped at chance to play for celts along with amir,
 the celts now have tv exposure-so the celts will get a winslow,randle jabari type at some point but the celts now have a go to scorer and a very powererfull trade chip,not that i want to trade isiah
tell meyou don't gasp at some of the things  thomas does
just think what he can teach rozier and smart about getting to hoop
-thomas is just a mystical talent to be enjoyed-i just sit shaking my head on some of the series of plays,3 changes of pace ,reverse pivot ,hesitation and explode to hoop just hanging and drawing a foul-on a dark feburary freezing day i'll take that-tp for that post on post move of mine

[Celtics4ever]

IT will be better than anyone picked in 8-12 immediately in the present.   But small quick guys have a finite lifespan in the league.   Once their quickness leaves them it is over.  IT is better now but in the long run the jury is out on this one.

[chambers]

I'd still go the Ainge route:
- get IT with a late 1st rounder of which you have plenty. IT is on such a reasonable contract that you can always flip him for the same or better.
- in case he helps the team get to the playoffs, package a tonne of picks (cause we have more than a tonne of those) trying to move up. Chances are if you overpay, you will get a deal done.

There was absolutely no guarantee IT would be available later. With that contract and the situation in PHO, somebody else would have given up a pick to get him.

Now, if Ainge had not caught Charlotte's management in a minor case of dementia, we would have had Winslow AND IT, and a lot less 1st rounders. The discussion would then be if Winslow is worth it.

MJ did not agree (still cannot believe it) , Riley would never agree. Well, stuff happens. Still, it was not a bad plan.

You make some very good points and they are all true, especially about Charlotte's insanity and Danny's plain bad luck. Although I think Danny could have made a handshake deal with his buddy McDonough in Phoenix for IT after the season, he Suns may well have dealt IT to someone else given the contract situation. Good points, TP.

If we use hindsight, what would you prefer more....

1) Acquiring IT, making the playoffs.
2) Missing the playoffs, acquiring Justise Winslow

[chambers]

intangibles for isiah, he draws fouls like a magnet,frustrates bigs,i watched winslow in summer league lets see what happens when he plays crowder or smart
in college some guys have mature physiques and the pros are a great leveler
isiah is a one off and brings the fans too their feet-as entetainment you can't get much better-

isiah got beat for best 6th because he played for multiple teams last season, a 20pt per game scorer in limited minutes and just needs to be plugged in-
one of the best little men and looking to be the best-
the guy sells tickets as he electrifies the crowd-another intangibale

rollie you quoted yourself lol. You are pretty awesome so that's okay.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think Isaiah Thomas will be part of the next true contending Celtics team? Does he get us closer to an NBA championship?
The only way I think he does is if we trade him as part of a package for a real star.
He would be a great 6th man on a championship team, but as Phosita said, he's not a building block.

total accident at first the quoted post did not post,but the way you put that is funny,
alot of luck and help from cleavland  brought us into the playoffs-but tell me what the promotion of brad stevens is worth in terms of getting a star or near star
lee jumped at chance to play for celts along with amir,
 the celts now have tv exposure-so the celts will get a winslow,randle jabari type at some point but the celts now have a go to scorer and a very powererfull trade chip,not that i want to trade isiah
tell meyou don't gasp at some of the things  thomas does
just think what he can teach rozier and smart about getting to hoop
-thomas is just a mystical talent to be enjoyed-i just sit shaking my head on some of the series of plays,3 changes of pace ,reverse pivot ,hesitation and explode to hoop just hanging and drawing a foul-on a dark feburary freezing day i'll take that-tp for that post on post move of mine

You are right about IT being able to teach these young guys about stabbing/feeling out the offense. I think he'll be instrumental in teaching them the pick and roll because he's a master. We need Smart (who is already getting much better in the pick and roll after having almost no idea as a college player) to become a dominant pick and roll player and IT is the perfect coach/guardian. Same with Rozier.

I do gasp at Thomas and he certainly is the kind of player that makes you jump out of your chair and fist pump to the TV lol. Everyone loves the underdog and he's been one his whole life.

I just think as far as the future of the Celitcs goes, I'd have rather rollied' the dice on Justise Winslow. See what I did there?
TP to you for your enthusiasm and old school knowledge rollie.