Author Topic: KO lack of progress - body  (Read 22889 times)

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Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2015, 10:24:34 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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KO isn't a 5, we've proved that already. Also a high skill-set is never a bad thing.

How was that proven?
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2015, 10:33:54 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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And, it continues.

A lot of very uninformed, baseless comments bashing a guy who has spent the first two years in the league as a very productive player.

I bet if Giannis was bulking up, people will say he's one step closer to becoming the next Durant.  ;)

Giannis is bulking up.  Didn't you see him in the Africa game?

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2015, 10:44:13 AM »

Offline GzUP617

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KO isn't a 5, we've proved that already. Also a high skill-set is never a bad thing.

How was that proven?

 He did lose the starting Center job, honestly you can play him at the 4 or 5 but he'll always play more of a stretch PF than anything else.  The small wingspan and defense at the rim not really being his play style is what proves it to me.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2015, 10:55:54 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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KO isn't a 5, we've proved that already. Also a high skill-set is never a bad thing.

How was that proven?

 He did lose the starting Center job, honestly you can play him at the 4 or 5 but he'll always play more of a stretch PF than anything else.  The small wingspan and defense at the rim not really being his play style is what proves it to me.

As you already have your proof, this may be of no interest to you, but I thought I'd post these numbers anyway, just in case.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14BOS20.HTM#bypos

According to 82games.com, Kelly played 31% of the team's minutes at center last year while playing only 4% at power forward.

His offensive rating was about the same at each position, but the defensive rating was strikingly better when he played the center position.

PF:  ORTG; 105.0, DRTG; 107.3

C:  ORTG; 105.2, DRTG; 96.0

So, my eye test already told me I liked him better at center.  Now, these numbers seem to do a nice job backing up that preference. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2015, 10:57:30 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Again, you're misunderstanding. But that's ok.

Explain it better, then.  I want to understand.

I am saying he should shore up his biggest offensive weakness (shooting from deep) and focus on his facilitating skills. You are saying that is a call for one-dimensional play.  Hence: misunderstanding.

Regardless, I have no desire to argue with you about the relative merits of your 2015 roster binky.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2015, 10:59:36 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.
I think having a 5 who can dribble drive is a significantly more useful skill if the other 4 guys on the court are perimeter players, which I think is exactly where the league is going.

Potentially, but I think the Magic did all right without one when they made the Finals with Dwight.

If a Kelly Olynyk dribble drive play is one of our more useful offensive play calls, I think it'll be time to start watching lottery projections.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2015, 11:03:26 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Again, you're misunderstanding. But that's ok.

Explain it better, then.  I want to understand.

I am saying he should shore up his biggest offensive weakness (shooting from deep) and focus on his facilitating skills. You are saying that is a call for one-dimensional play.  Hence: misunderstanding.

Regardless, I have no desire to argue with you about the relative merits of your 2015 roster binky.

I'm not trying to argue.  Just trying to engage in a thoughtful basketball discussion.

Anyway, at the risk of being too argumentative, I agree that I'd like to see him improve his percentages from deep.  At the same time, I'd like to see him continue working on his driving game, his passing game, and I'd even love to see him add more of a mid-range game (which I think he has the skill to add to his arsenal).

This may seem like a lot, but personally I think he's too multi-skilled to just work on being a big who shoots threes a la Channing Frye. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2015, 11:06:13 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.
I think having a 5 who can dribble drive is a significantly more useful skill if the other 4 guys on the court are perimeter players, which I think is exactly where the league is going.

Potentially, but I think the Magic did all right without one when they made the Finals with Dwight.

If a Kelly Olynyk dribble drive play is one of our more useful offensive play calls, I think it'll be time to start watching lottery projections.
One of our most useful calls? Probably not but a killer option behind a Lee/Thomas pick and roll for the second unit.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2015, 11:07:24 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.
I think having a 5 who can dribble drive is a significantly more useful skill if the other 4 guys on the court are perimeter players, which I think is exactly where the league is going.

Potentially, but I think the Magic did all right without one when they made the Finals with Dwight.

If a Kelly Olynyk dribble drive play is one of our more useful offensive play calls, I think it'll be time to start watching lottery projections.

That Magic team--almost a decade ago now--was the last team I remember that was that successful that relied so heavily on having a dominant interior big man who they aimed to feed it into deep in the post first and foremost while surrounding him with spot up shooters.

I'm not saying that given the right big man, that strategy couldn't work again.  It certainly doesn't look like the way the Celtics are headed, though.

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2015, 11:08:02 AM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.

Wait, that is a fundamental skill in the way the league is developing. The ability to put the ball on the floor against a defender closing out is essential to the modern NBA offense.

Often in these scenarios a stretch 4 or 5 receives the ball on the perimeter/behind the 3 point line on a dish or swing, coming out of p+r penetration or strong side actions. Hence, when they get the ball their man has sagged off, gone to help on penetration or any number of possibilities. This is what creates the open looks for the big. In the case of a hard or successful close-out the ability for a big to put the ball on the floor and penetrate is the fundamental act that continues the objectives of the modern offense, which is to get and maintain the Thibs style defense off balance, creating advantages of 4 on 3, or 3 on 2. The penetrating big ideally will draw defender attention from elsewhere creating the opening that allows a pass to a weak side cutter or bringing in the defender just a touch from the corner generating the uber-sexy corner 3. A big who gets stymied by the close-out, who can't put the ball on the floor without hesitation, stalls the offense, ruining the continuity of the advantage, and allows the defense to regain their balance and cohesion.

Bigs who can do this, stretch the floor and then when they receive the ball not stall movement but further bend an already off balance defense are one of the primary weapons of the modern basketball offense. It has grown out of the simple shooting stretch big but is where so much value and attention is currently being placed.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2015, 11:10:54 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Worth noting: I'm trying to be nice to C18 and not just say that spending the time and effort on Kelly Olynyk is not worth our franchise's time because he's just not cut out to be a valuable contributor to the team since he'll get all cringey about it and, in his defense, this is my opinion and he obviously doesn't share it.

There are absolutely some players at the 5 who absolutely should be working on the dribble drive for the reasons you've listed. Our token white guy is not one of them, IMO.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2015, 11:11:07 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Again, you're misunderstanding. But that's ok.

Explain it better, then.  I want to understand.

I am saying he should shore up his biggest offensive weakness (shooting from deep) and focus on his facilitating skills. You are saying that is a call for one-dimensional play.  Hence: misunderstanding.

Regardless, I have no desire to argue with you about the relative merits of your 2015 roster binky.

Direct quote from you:

"I don't think having your 5 man taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have."

I don't think I misunderstood that part, and I know I don't agree with it. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2015, 11:12:00 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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See the above. Maybe instead of "your 5 man" I should have written "Kelly Olynyk" more explicitly. Apologies.

Or: The implication, of 'your 5 man' was supposed to allude to the player we were already talking about... which is why I was able to use "He" at the start of the next sentence, he being a referential pronoun.  My mistake.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2015, 11:17:44 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Worth noting: I'm trying to be nice to C18 and not just say that spending the time and effort on Kelly Olynyk is not worth our franchise's time because he's just not cut out to be a valuable contributor to the team since he'll get all cringey about it.

There are absolutely some players at the 5 who absolutely should be working on the dribble drive for the reasons you've listed. Our token white guy is not one of them.

Thank you for trying to be nice.

I can appreciate the fact that you see Kelly Olynyk as little more than a "token white guy."  I see him as considerably more than that.

I'm attempting to make reasoned arguments to back up my opinion. 

Personally, I feel like I've made some decent ones that have helped prompt others to add some useful analysis of Kelly Olynyk and his game beyond the "get rid of the pasty, soft white guy; he sucks" variety that seem to be the norm around here lately. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2015, 11:22:49 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Also worth noting: I gave you a good starting point for my suspicion of his defensive numbers and you not so subtly railroaded my actual point into a bit of a diatribe lumping me in with the people who say olynyk's stats are inflated because he plays against bench players (never said that) and that I've called him a soft player who can't defend (haven't said that, either).

You're more or less doing the same thing in that last post. I don't think we should get rid of him because he's our token white guy, I think we should get rid of him because he's unlikely to get significantly better than he is right now. In this regard, he's similar to JuJuan Johnson -- although he's a better player than Triple-J.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.