Author Topic: KO lack of progress - body  (Read 22889 times)

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Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2015, 08:57:13 AM »

Offline rickyfan3.0...

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Who cares what these guys bodies look like? They put out all this fake propaganda about James Young putting on 19 pounds of muscle, yet the kid seems like he can't play. Like, would Tim Duncan have been a better player if he was doing more curls?

KO can play, and won't get better if his body improves. Yes, if he puts on 20 pounds of muscle, he'd likely become a better defender/rebounder, but that will never be his game.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2015, 09:11:09 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Three of the seven best defensive lineups the Celtics deployed last year, by the numbers, featured Jameer Nelson and Kelly Olynyk:
http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1

Rajon Rondo graded out as a better defender than KO last season. So did Gerald Wallace:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html?lid=header_teams

Jared Sullinger averaged more blocks than Olynyk did. Olynyk's one steal per game is good, but considering Al Jefferson is close to that, and I think you'd agree that Jefferson is hardly a good defender (and my suspicion is that you don't think Sully is a particularly good defender either).

 I would maintain that most everyone on the Celtics had their defensive numbers inflated by their system -- the system that allowed them to finish 12th in the league in Defensive RTG overall, and this particularly applies to Kelly Olynyk, who also did not post his numbers playing starters minutes, and is unlikely to maintain them if he ever cracks 30 minutes per night -- something to take into account when you're casually extrapolating per-minute stats.

That is one reason, probably, why Olynyk's defensive numbers are inflated towards something you could squint at and say "they're good", especially if you wanted to see him stay with the Celtics -- a notion you've expressed on multiple occasions.

I'm trying very hard not to be casual about interpreting the stats.  I admit that I'm a big Olynyk fan and that I'm biased towards him.  I want to see him do well, and I appreciate any evidence that suggests he's doing well.

Given the above, I take heart in the numbers that show almost unanimously that he's a plus defender.  I've looked at more or less every stat available to me (not the ones you have to pay for), and they say he's a good defender.

Despite the numerical evidence, though, almost everyone around here claims--often forcefully and derisively--that Kelly's a lousy defender.  I read a lot of phrases about him being "soft" or "lacking aggression" or being "weak" without any real analysis of his actual defense.

I've considered the "over-inflated" stats argument.  It's reasonable to surmise that his stats look good because the team's overall defense is good.  However, when you look at his on court/off court stats for last season, they show that the team was considerably better defensively when he was on the court than when he was off the court. 

I understand that this naturally leads to your next argument; that Kelly's defensive stats are inflated because he played primarily against opposing bench players.  If this were the case, though, I would think it would be a general rule that bench players across the league would post better defensive stats than their starting counterparts.  Kelly's not the only bench player in the league who played primarily against opposing bench players, right?  In looking at defensive stats for players across the league, though, this doesn't appear to be the case at all.  there are tons of non-starters with lousy defensive numbers.

Now, don't misunderstand me here; like most of you, the eye test does not tell me that Kelly Olynyk is a great defender.  I've seen him make a lot of mistakes.  I've seen him get overpowered by bigger players and I've seen him get burned by faster players. 

However, I've also seen things defensively that impress me about Kelly.  He often shows good awareness in the lane on pick and roll plays.  When he drops back to cover with a ball handler charging and a big rolling, he's generally good at not over committing to either too early, doing his best to disrupt an easy finish.  He has quick hands (although not much length) which often allow him to make plays on the ball in these situations. 

As a post defender, he can get overpowered, as I said earlier, but he generally at least fights for position to try to make an easy score more difficult.

I feel that his biggest weakness defensively is on the perimeter.  He really can't guard quicker fours, never mind being able to switch onto threes.  These situations are a nightmare for Kelly.  This is where it seemed to me that coach Stevens did a very good job protecting Kelly.  He didn't put him in a lot of situations I can recall where he was forced to guard quicker perimeter players.

Despite his "soft" label, I think his best role moving forward is as a center.  If he can be paired with a long, athletic, shot blocker at the four like, say, an Amir Johnson, Kelly can guard the lane in the pick and roll, be asked to bang a bit with opposing centers, and be bailed out by his PF partner with weak side shot blocking help. 

He can hold his own more defensively at center than at power forward, and he can create more of a matchup advantage for himself, and the team as a whole, on the other end of the floor with his perimeter oriented offensive game at the five position.

I don't expect to change the general perception of Kelly Olynyk as a soft player who can't defend.  I don't expect people to not continue to see what they are already predisposed to see. 

I do, however, ask that perhaps, when using the "eye test" this upcoming season, that folks take the time to not only look for the things that Olynyk does poorly defensively that confirm these preconceived notions, but also to keep an eye out for the things he does well defensively. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2015, 09:16:34 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Three of the seven best defensive lineups the Celtics deployed last year, by the numbers, featured Jameer Nelson and Kelly Olynyk:
http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1

Rajon Rondo graded out as a better defender than KO last season. So did Gerald Wallace:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html?lid=header_teams

Jared Sullinger averaged more blocks than Olynyk did. Olynyk's one steal per game is good, but considering Al Jefferson is close to that, and I think you'd agree that Jefferson is hardly a good defender (and my suspicion is that you don't think Sully is a particularly good defender either).

I would maintain that most everyone on the Celtics had their defensive numbers inflated by their system -- the system that allowed them to finish 12th in the league in Defensive RTG overall, and this particularly applies to Kelly Olynyk, who also did not post his numbers playing starters minutes, and is unlikely to maintain them if he ever cracks 30 minutes per night -- something to take into account when you're casually extrapolating per-minute stats.

That is one reason, probably, why Olynyk's defensive numbers are inflated towards something you could squint at and say "they're good", especially if you wanted to see him stay with the Celtics -- a notion you've expressed on multiple occasions.
I half agree with this. I think all the bigs had their numbers inflated by the system but the guards had their numbers deflated. The guards often left themselves in an exposed position forcing the ball away from screens which helped the bigs immensely.

Not sure Olynyk is a good defender but the team always looked better on offense when he was in the court (even if he wasn't scoring) due to the spacing he brings.

A 2nd unit featuring Olynyk, Lee and Thomas will be really hard to guard next year.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2015, 09:19:27 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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@Celtics18, IMO the thing to hope for is that his defense continues to trend towards the positive and that his offense continues to evolve, particularly his shooting from deep. If he turns into a better-passing Channing Frye no one should be bummed about that.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2015, 09:28:07 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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@Celtics18, IMO the thing to hope for is that his defense continues to trend towards the positive and that his offense continues to evolve, particularly his shooting from deep. If he turns into a better-passing Channing Frye no one should be bummed about that.

I'm sorry, but offensively, you've completely missed what he does if you think his best comparison is Channing Frye.

I've pointed this out in the past, but shooting the long ball, while a huge part of setting up all the other things he does offensively, is only a small part of what makes him an effective offensive player.

The fact that he is very, very good at attacking close outs off the dribble from the perimeter is, to me, his most impressive offensive skill.

Again, the numbers bear this out.  He was one of the most effective bigs in the entire league at creating points off the dribble last season. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2015, 09:35:35 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2015, 09:37:46 AM »

Offline clover

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.

He could well be back to the 4 this year, which should help him quite a bit.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2015, 09:51:23 AM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.

LOL!
He is telling you KO is more than Frye offensively and basically you are saying he should abandon one of his offensive gift (attacking close outs) to be more like Frye with passing...
Offensively, the Sky is the limit for KO! If he can be average defensively he will be one of our most important player, thanks to that particular skill you suggest he abandon...  ::)

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2015, 09:53:01 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.

Disagree.  Having a big that can put the ball on the floor and get in the lane when the big comes out makes him that much harder to guard, and it makes the team that much harder to guard.

Versatility on offense is a huge weapon.  Coach Brad Stevens seems to be a coach that relies on having as much versatility in his arsenal as possible. 

Kelly Olynyk's multi-skilled offensive game helps provide that. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2015, 09:56:10 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.

I don't think the league is shifting towards one-dimensional players with clearly defined roles.  I feel that it's shifting away from that towards having players at multiple positions with multiple offensive skill sets. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2015, 09:58:45 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Again, you're misunderstanding. But that's ok.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2015, 10:00:31 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The NBA is an athletes game.   I was against taking KO and Sully because of their lack of athletic ability.   Both can play in the NBA, but neither has a ton of star potential because of their low athletic base.   Both were relatively skilled when they entered the league.  I never expected either of them to be a star, I did expect Sully to show up in shape, however.  Out of the two, I have seen more improvement in their body in KO basing what I have seen on the court.   Sully, supposedly is getting into shape, but he never should have been out of shape.

KO is a better fit for CBS system.   He is the better three point shooter, can pass and has better defensive stats than Sully.

As for the toughness, I think KO's standing up to Kevin Love was a big step forward.   There are times, where he lets the game come to him and was soft.   I hope that learning he can stand up to NBA players and not take their crap will improve his game.   Sully and KO are at a big point in their careers, where they either deliver the goods on offense and play D or they will be labeled career backups.   

Ainge, did not trust either of them, I think, in this off season, and rightfully so.   He went out and traded for Lee, signed Amir, and resigned Jonas.  Ainge covered his butt in case they faltered which is what he should have done.   All three of those guys are more athletic than KO and Sully.   Zeller is a better athlete.   Jonas, Amir, Lee and Zeller are all good running players.

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2015, 10:00:38 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Again, you're misunderstanding. But that's ok.

Explain it better, then.  I want to understand. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2015, 10:01:01 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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You're misunderstanding -- I don't think having your 5 taking his man off the dribble is a particularly useful offensive weapon to have. He would be best served (IMO), judging by the way the league is shifting, at refocusing on his passing and his three point shooting.
I think having a 5 who can dribble drive is a significantly more useful skill if the other 4 guys on the court are perimeter players, which I think is exactly where the league is going.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: KO lack of progress - body
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2015, 10:20:39 AM »

Offline GzUP617

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 KO isn't a 5, we've proved that already. Also a high skill-set is never a bad thing.