Author Topic: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?  (Read 16469 times)

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Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2015, 08:30:16 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Cowens and Hondo are excellent examples of the players we could see from our current team. Cowens and Hondo were stars. Russell and Bird were superstars. I think we can build a championship caliber team modeled after the Cowens/Hondo teams.

I don't see anyone on our current team projecting as a Cowens or Havlicek.  Cowens was a league MVP and both are NBA Hall of Famers. Over one 4 year stretch, Havlicek averaged approximately 26 points, 8 rebounds and 7 assists.  In 1970-71 he averaged 29ppt, 9rpg and 7.5 apg.   Almost the same the following year.  Also, btw -- he averaged about 45 mpg. 

Havlicek was a superstar and Cowens (for a few years) was pretty darn close.  NO comparison to anyone on the current team.


Edit:  On further thought, they were both superstars.  Top 5 players when they were at the top of their games.  And in 1974 and 1976, led the C's to 2 championshps.  Hondo played in 13 all-star games; Cowens 8.     in 1976, Dave Cowens scored 19 ppg, gathered 16 rpg, and as CENTER handed out 4.2 assists.     Both were SUPERSTARS.   And YES you need superstars to win in the NBA.  JoJo was my favorite player of that era -- but I knew that Havlicek and Cowens were the best players.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 09:35:31 PM by Neurotic Guy »

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2015, 09:25:46 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Cowens and Hondo are excellent examples of the players we could see from our current team. Cowens and Hondo were stars
  Spoken like someone too young to remember.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2015, 09:49:44 PM »

Offline walker834

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The closest comparison is probably the early celtics before the got Bill Russell.  We have a lot of guys but we don't have that one guy.

I just think there really isn't a model or comparison though.  The celtics should just be building this and trying to be as good as they can be.

The nba has changed a lot since then and superstars are really far and in between. Superstars that win titles it's really been Duncan, LEbron and Curry the last several years.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2015, 09:55:49 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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and Shaq, and Kobe/Gasol and between those five players you have almost every NBA Finals appearance since 1999... but somehow needing a superstar is a fallacy, according to you?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2015, 09:57:50 PM »

Offline mctyson

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The pistons proved that having 5 quality starters can get it done.  Why can't having 5 quality starters, a really deep bench and a coach who can play all these guys start a new trend?  We'd be starting something new here.  Stars are made not born anyways. Teams win basketball games suddenly players get recognition in all  star games. 

We'd need players who are unselfish and can sacrifice for the team but that's what it's all about here anyways.

Yes "needing" a superstar is a fallacy. 

We all need a liver, without one we would die.  NBA teams do not need a superstar (e.g. Lebron, Durant, Kobe) to win, let alone survive.  Also, superstars need other players (Lebron needed Wade, Kobe needed Shaq and Pau) to win championships. 

The question is better worded this way:  can you build an consistent, championship-contending NBA franchise for 3-5 years without having one player who makes 1st or 2nd All-NBA (i.e. top-10)? 

I say yes, it is possible and I think the Hawks are doing that right now.  Thats the model for the Celtics in a world where getting a top-10 player is a lot harder than the people on this board make it out to be, considering how much they worship draft picks.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2015, 10:02:10 PM »

Offline walker834

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Well Cousins, Love, or drafting someone is the best shot we have at getting one or developing our own players. Player slike Curry, Lebron, Shaq or Kobe are not coming here or are too old.  Duncan, Dirk etc.   There aren't many players of that caliber in the NBA.

Players like Dwight Howard and Harden are in that no mans land themselves.  Superstar talent but not good enough.

Kevin Durant. That's about it.  I think d rafting is probably our best shot and trying to improve our chances of getting a lottery pick.

I don't think we have to lose to do that.  Those celtics teams before they got Russell were not a losing franchise. 

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2015, 10:09:56 PM »

Offline walker834

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Thon Maker here we come.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2015, 10:10:31 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Not only is the way the NBA was structured 60+ years ago totally irrelevant to the way the NBA operates today, but the Celtics were a losing franchise before they drafted Hall of Fame point guard Bob Cousy in 1950.

edit I'm dumb they didn't even draft him he fell into their lap after one refused to pay his salary and one folded. I knew that, just spaced.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2015, 10:16:49 PM »

Offline walker834

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Right the celtics didn't even want Cousy at first.  Red called him a local yokel lol.

Regardless the nba is different now but the game is the same.  They had Cousy and were a challenger but not good enough to get over the top.   Red was good at acquiring draft picks.  He landed Mchale, Bird that way and through smart trading.  Russell was the same thing if i'm not mistaken.  It was a trade.  They traded Ed Mccauley I think to get up in the draft.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2015, 10:23:45 PM »

Offline walker834

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point is the closest comparison probably is that though.  We have marcus.  We were bad for a year.  We have an assortment of good young players to compete.  We have a ton of draft picks and are missing that one or two guys.   Ben Simmons.  Thon Maker etc.......

We are like the pre 60's celtics and post 70's celtics which if we are really trying to build a dynasty that works.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2015, 12:17:14 AM »

Offline biggs

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"R. Wallace was always talented enough to be a star but due to his combustible nature, didn't reach his potential in Portland".

Or our summer league team  ;D
Truuuuuuuuuth!

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2015, 12:40:43 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Because for every 03-04 Pistons there are five to ten 14-15 Hawks.

The same can be said about teams like the Rockets though. For every Golden state there are teams like Cleveland, Houston, etc that don't win.  Just look at the knicks.

Except when a team like the Rockets doesn't win, a team like the Warriors does win.

Not necessarily. 

When the 2013/14 (star filled) Heat didn't win, the Spurs did.
When the 2003/04 (star filled) Lakers didn't win, the Pistons did.

So doesn't always happen that way.  These are both examples of a team filled with big name stars getting beaten VERY convincingly by a team that didn't really have any big name stars.

I don't think anybody is saying the team with the biggest star ALWAYS wins.

Please see the bold text in the above quotes - it is this that my response was directly towards.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:55:36 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2015, 01:09:10 AM »

Offline Hemingway

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to the point about the Pistons team that won it without a superstar. The take away from that year should be if you can be a better than average team and clever with your assets eventually you can cash in and get a title. Did Dumars think he was getting a title that year on opening night? I don't think so. We are not so far away from that Pistons team pre Sheed. just need to bring in 1 or 2 more guys and further develop a few more. 

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2015, 01:43:48 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Oh, and they got the Lakers at the perfect imploding time.

Everything that you said was completely true, but this point seems to get forgotten when people hold up that Pistons squad as an example of how you can build a champion.  If the Lakers aren't coming apart at the seams, they're winning that series in five games.  The Pistons had a lot more talent that they are often given credit for, but really; the Lakers lost that series, just as much as the Pistons won it.

And the fact that Detroit was never again able to get over the hump, to me that's another point in favor of how you really NEED that superstar.  You don't necessarily need LeBron, but you better have in-his-prime Paul Pierce.

Umm, the Lakers were lucky that they weren't swept, quite honestly.  That team just never really clicked, both on and off the court, especially with the Kobe-Shaq feud and Kobe getting out of going to jail for rape.  A lot of people think that if Malone hadn't gotten hurt that the Lakers would have won the title, but I don't think that holds water.  Even with the mailman, LA was an older team whose defense was never that great, not to mention the fact that they severely lacked depth of any kind.  The only reserve capable of consistently performing was Derek Fisher, Fox was old and out, as was Horace Grant, and Luke Walton proved to be a better fit for the triangle than GP, which isn't really surprising.  Of course, Phil never let Payton use his post game against Billups or Tony Parker, so that didn't exactly help their cause, either, and with close to no depth, how many minutes could Malone really have played at age 40?  He was still tremendously effective, sure, but he couldn't have averaged 40+ mpg, especially against the younger and deeper Pistons, and he always choked in the finals, anyway, lol ;D. I just don't see how the Lakers could have possibly offset Detroit's depth, which was a huge reason why they won, imo.  The Pistons could call on Lindsey Hunter, Mike James, Corliss Williamson, Elden Campbell, Darvin Ham, and Mehmet Okur off the bench, and them losing Okur, James, and Williamson in the 2004 offseason because they were trying to save money ::) really hurt them in 04-05.  Dumars did get McDyess, who was great for them, and they came tantalizingly close to winning back to back titles, but, ironically, the lack of depth really hurt them after 03-04, in addition to missing out on Melo.  Larry Brown and Flip Saunders were also not the least bit interested in playing the young guys (sound familiar?  Ugh.) who could have really helped them, like Amir Johnson, Aaron Afflalo, and Carlos Delfino, and once Saunders shifted their approach to more of an offensive than defensive team, Ben Wallace was gone, and that's when it ended, imo, because he was their heart and their superstar, and once he left they seemed to get quite complacent.  He was on the downside, yes, but if they'd kept him and still added Webber in 06-07, that's an incredible big man rotation, don't you think?  Sorry for the tangent.  They had a great run, though.  Putting Carmelo on that squad would have been their version of adding Len Bias to the 86 team, in a way, but they blew it, lol ;D. Wow.

Re: Is needing a superstar a fallacy?
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2015, 01:57:56 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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to the point about the Pistons team that won it without a superstar. The take away from that year should be if you can be a better than average team and clever with your assets eventually you can cash in and get a title. Did Dumars think he was getting a title that year on opening night? I don't think so. We are not so far away from that Pistons team pre Sheed. just need to bring in 1 or 2 more guys and further develop a few more.

I disagree.  Ben Wallace had already made his first all star team in 2003, had won his first two dpoy awards, and had twice been named to the All-Defensive First Team, as well as the All-NBA second and third teams, respectively, while we currently have no one of that caliber.  Sigh.