If Amir Johnson can play Center why hasn't he?

[littleteapot]

The worst kept secret about the Toronto Raptors last year is that Jonas Valanciunas only played 26 MPG last year. For almost half the game, they needed to find someone else to play Center. Their rotational big men were stretch 4 Patrick Patterson, perennial benchwarming power forwards Tyler Hansbrough and James Johnson, and Amir Johnson. If Amir Johnson was legitimately a player who can play either big man spot, don't you think the Raptors would have used him more as a center, having no other good center options when Jonas hits the bench.

I used this post for a picture of the lineups the Raptors went with: http://www.raptorshq.com/2015/3/17/8228881/toronto-raptors-quick-stat-hits-ideal-lineups

Excluding lineups that were barely used, Jonas and Amir played 993 minutes together and were basically a net 0 rating, and a defensive rating of about 104.

Amir Johnson played without Jonas for only 210 minutes, and was always in a lineup with DeRozan and a bunch of shooters, with Patterson as his frontcourt mate, and some combination of Lowry, Ross, Vasquez and Williams. These lineups did have a net rating of +10, but this is mainly due to outscoring opponents as their defensive rating is still 104. The 368 minutes with Jonas but no Amir are the worst in terms of net rating and defense, but the 479 minutes without either starting big are actually the best (by a slim margin) in terms of net rating and defensive rating.

Amir Johnson just isn't a center. He was best in his primary role for Toronto as a defensive-minded power forward, covering for the defensive deficiencies of an offensive-minded center. The Raptors never used him as the center in a traditional lineup, were reluctant to use him as a lone big in a perimeter-oriented lineup, and had more success just going ultra-small anyway.

[Celtics4ever]

Amir Johnson just isn't a center. He was best in his primary role for Toronto as a defensive-minded power forward, covering for the defensive deficiencies of an offensive-minded center.

  He will have his work cut out for him if he is covering Sully.

[Evantime34]

Did the Raptors play much small ball? I felt like they didn't play him as much as a small ball five, but I think that's because they didn't go small much in general.

[Robb]

Pretty confused by this. Your third paragraph makes the point that as the lone big, Amir was a part of the best lineup the Raptors had. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but that sounds pretty encouraging.

[littleteapot]

Pretty confused by this. Your third paragraph makes the point that as the lone big, Amir was a part of the best lineup the Raptors had. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but that sounds pretty encouraging.

Any frontcourt lineup without Valanciunas had a great rating. The ultra-small frontcourt with a some combo of James Johnson, Hansbrough and Patterson as the bigs was more effective and more used than Patterson and Amir.

[Robb]

Pretty confused by this. Your third paragraph makes the point that as the lone big, Amir was a part of the best lineup the Raptors had. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but that sounds pretty encouraging.

Any frontcourt lineup without Valanciunas had a great rating. The ultra-small frontcourt with a some combo of James Johnson, Hansbrough and Patterson as the bigs was more effective and more used than Patterson and Amir.

Ah. Got it. I checked 82 Games and for last year Amir had a 24.2 PER as a Center, and allowed a 19.5 for - 4.7 difference. I figure that's part of the reason they'd consider playing him as a 5.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14TOR9.HTM

[Jon]

Stevens trotted out lineups last year very commonly with Sully/Bass at the 5/4 and sometimes even Bass/Crowder.  Regardless of what Toronto did, if Stevens is going to play a 3 at the 4 and an undersized 4 at the 5 together, you better believe Amir Johnson will get minutes at the 5.

[BDeCosta26]

"He was best as a defensive minded 4 next to an offensive 5"

I never understood this. Olynyk is really a 7 foot stretch four with a face up game. Johnson is a 6'10 big, a defender who's excellent near the hoop. So just because Olynyk is 7 feet, he's the center and Johnson's the PF because he's 6'10? That doesn't make sense. Johnson will be playing Center. Olynyk would be playing PF.

People do it with guards too. A local example is people being down on Smart by saying "He'll never be a pure PG". Do you even watch basketball? The pure PG isn't a required commodity in today's game. Versatile players are much more valued, and "combo guard" isn't a bad term. Evan Turner was really our PG masked as a SF for a large chunk of the season. Traditional positions mean much less in today's game .

[Who]

Amir Johnson is a PF who can play some minutes at C. Not a full time C.

It's only in recent years that Amir Johnson has become a high level defensive player. Before that, Amir Johnson struggled with the physicality of starting PFs (nevermind Cs). He had above average height, length, quickness, mobility but below average strength and was pushed around too often at PF to be considered a top defender. Given his offensive limitations, this meant Amir was only a borderline starter. A bench player on a strong team to be honest.

However, Amir has gradually (and I mean gradually! It took him about 7 years since entering the league. Amir has major problems carrying weight. He often loses whatever weight he puts on in the summer during the course of the season) improved his strength over his career and over the last few years has become strong enough to be a top defensive PF. I'd say for the last 3 years, I think. Not sure. Can't quite remember. It's recent enough though.

However, while Amir has developed enough strength to battle PFs, he is still below average strength wise / physicality for a C. Unlike PF, Amir also has below average height for a C at 6-10/6-11. So a skinny undersized C. Leaving Amir vulnerable to being overwhelmed physically by starting caliber centers. On the other end of the floor, Amir's skill-level is too limited to make up the difference. He is unable to create his own shot. His jump-shot is basic and he rarely takes it because he does not have confidence in it. He does not use his quickness to drive on his opponent. He does have advantage in transition scoring and he is a terrific cutter. Garbage man type scorer. So similar offense with a big decline in defense = a much less effective player.

Amir Johnson is effective enough at center to be comfortable with him playing backup C minutes against less useful opposing players but he is unable to matchup physically (or make up for it with skill-set) against starting caliber Cs.

But this is pretty similar to Tyler Zeller. He has same problems. Cannot matchup physically or athletically to opponent starting centers. Best off as a backup C. Mostly a garbage man scorer. Zeller has more of a jump-shot. Unlike Zeller, Amir Johnson is a much more experienced and capable team defender so Boston will get a boost there while still remaining vulnerable to being physically overwhelmed in the paint. Amir will give much of the same offense while offering superior team defense + rebounding. So it's an upgrade. It's just a band-aid solution. It's not a long term solution.

Amir Johnson is a full time PF who can play part time C minutes being asked to play full time C minutes here. It's not ideal. But he is better at C than anyone else on the Celtics roster.

[ahonui06]

Amir Johnson will definitely be playing C for Boston at times throughout the season, albeit in spot minutes. He's a solid defender and rim protector and the Celtics could use that.

[mmmmm]

The numbers from that article were from mid-season and were not complete by any means.

Here are some more complete numbers (nbawowy.com) of the various front court pairings and trios that Toronto used this last year:

(Regular season only, AJ = Amir Johnson, JV = Jonas Valanciunas, TH = Tyler Hansbrough, PP = Patrick Patterson, JJ = James Johnson(SF))

AJ + JV  :  1254 minutes, 2399 possessions, ORtg 106.0, DRtg 107.9, Net -1.9
AJ - JV : 725 minutes, 1430 possessions, ORtg 114.1,  DRtg 106.0,  Net  +8.1

The following are w/o Valanciunas:

AJ + PP : 494 minutes, 969 possessions, ORtg 113.9, DRtg 107.0, Net +6.9
AJ + TH : 130 minutes, 249 possessions, ORtg 117.5, DRtg 101.8, Net +15.7

The following is w/o Valanciunas, Patterson or Hansbrough:

AJ + JJ : 75 minutes, 159 possessions, ORtg 106.3, DRtg 101.9, Net +4.4

The following is w/o Valanciunas or Hansbrough:

AJ + JJ + PP : 118 minutes, 221 possessions, ORtg 109.1, DRtg 109.1,  Net +0.0

The following is w/o Valanciunas or Patterson:

AJ + JJ + TH : 35 minutes, 65 possessions, ORtg 123.1, DRtg 76.9,  Net +57.2

The following is w/o Valanciunas, Hansbrough or Amir:

JJ + PP:  161 minutes, 312 possessions, ORtg 112.5, DRtg 119.9, Net -7.4

The following is w/o Valanciunas, Patterson or Amir or Stiemsma(since he actually played enough with JJ & TH to pollute this sample unless I exclude him):

JJ + TH:  39 minutes, 78 possessions, ORtg 107.7, DRtg 91.0, Net +16.7

The following are w/o Valanciunas,  Amir (or Stiemsma):

JJ + TH + PP: 321 minutes, 591 possessions, ORtg 120.5, DRtg 102.7, Net +17.8
TH + PP : 729 minutes, 1368 possessions, ORtg 119.6, DRtg 107.8, Net +11.8

Ignoring the more extreme numbers from the two under-40 minute samples, the main takeaway I would get from this is that Amir's lineups without Valanciunas were all positive, with exception of the AJ+JJ+PP one, which is even.  If you trim that one to lineups that exclude DeRozan, though (92 minutes) it becomes a Net +1.8.

In fact, Amir's lineups in general, with both Valanciunas and DeRozan off the court, were all solid:

AJ w/o (JV, DD) :  325 minutes, 638 possessions, ORtg 115.4, DRtg 103.7, Net +11.7

Toronto's perimeter was not a very good defensive perimeter.   DeRozan was not the only problem.  But he compounded it with his inefficient (yet high usage) offense.

EDIT:  Added the "TH + PP" (no JV, AJ or GS) front court combo.

[littleteapot]

I guess I have to stand corrected.

This might seem nitpicky, but adding up these numbers it looks like playing Amir Johnson with Hansbrough or another traditional PF was still very unpopular. If you look at the Amir+Patterson numbers, the net rating was still good because of the offensive rating which suggests that Amir at C lineups were effective because the Raptors just put 3 or 4 shooters around him and outscored the opponent. I don't know if it means he can be a good defensive center.

But big picture, I was wrong - he played center for significant minutes and whatever they did during that time worked.

[LooseCannon]

Maybe the problem was Dwane Casey.

[Ed Hollison]

As has already been mentioned here, the new NBA is much more “positionless” than it was several years ago. That’s why Stevens tends to talk more about “bigs” than he does “power forwards” and “centers”.

With that in mind, I think pairing Amir Johnson next to Sullinger makes some sense. If you’ve got a big, heavy post-up player on the floor, you can put Sullinger on that player and let AJ be more of weakside shot blocker. AJ can cover another big, perhaps someone who’s more of a threat in the pick-and-roll game. Both AJ and Sullinger can stretch the floor with their shooting as well.

That I think is the beauty of a player like Johnson. He doesn’t really match up well with those big, hulking old-fashioned post-up players. But how many of those guys are out there? If you really need someone on the defensive end to match up with those guys, it’s not too difficult. In the meantime, Johnson can defend the pick-and-roll, protect the rim, step out and hit long jumpers, etc. All of those things are highly valuable in today’s game.

[mmmmm]

I guess I have to stand corrected.

This might seem nitpicky, but adding up these numbers it looks like playing Amir Johnson with Hansbrough or another traditional PF was still very unpopular. If you look at the Amir+Patterson numbers, the net rating was still good because of the offensive rating which suggests that Amir at C lineups were effective because the Raptors just put 3 or 4 shooters around him and outscored the opponent. I don't know if it means he can be a good defensive center.

But big picture, I was wrong - he played center for significant minutes and whatever they did during that time worked.

I added the Hansbrough + Patterson front court pairing.  It shows the same high-offense, not-so-good defense == good net rating results as the Amir + Patterson combo.

The only really good defensive unit listed (with decent minute sample size) is the Amir + Tyler front court, with a DRtg of 101.8.

I think that it's hard to separate out the fact that overall, the Raptors gave up 108.3 points per 100 possessions.  So they were not a good defensive team.  In fact, pretty bad.

How much of that was on Amir in particular is hard to say.