Author Topic: All we need is for one player to hit  (Read 10292 times)

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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2015, 06:49:15 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Jazz started their rebuild with Deron Williams, an All-NBA talent they were able to move for a #3 pick (Favors), another #3 (Kanter) and a pick they used to draft Trey Burke in the top 10.

We are pretty far away from having such an option right now.
While that's true, the Celtics' rebuild started with sending our Pierce/KG and we've still got two brooklyn picks (and a sawp) yet to convey. If one of those picks winds up high, we're in business.

Yes, but the Nets have no incentive to be bad and have tons of money (and starting next year, cap space) to make sure they are at least mediocre.

Expect those picks to end up in the 12-20 range and you won't be disappointed.
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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 07:37:48 PM »

Offline Big333223

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The Jazz started their rebuild with Deron Williams, an All-NBA talent they were able to move for a #3 pick (Favors), another #3 (Kanter) and a pick they used to draft Trey Burke in the top 10.

We are pretty far away from having such an option right now.
While that's true, the Celtics' rebuild started with sending our Pierce/KG and we've still got two brooklyn picks (and a sawp) yet to convey. If one of those picks winds up high, we're in business.

Yes, but the Nets have no incentive to be bad and have tons of money (and starting next year, cap space) to make sure they are at least mediocre.

Expect those picks to end up in the 12-20 range and you won't be disappointed.
Right now, Brooklyn is looking to get under the cap so they can reduce the money they're paying out in taxes. Their incentive to be good won't be enough if they're players stink and can't stay healthy, which is a concern for everyone on the roster. They could wind up back in the bottom of the playoff picture again, but I could easily see them as one of the 5 worst teams in the league this season.
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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 07:46:55 PM »

Offline CelticsJG

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The difference between us and Jazz is that they given their players minutes to develop and learn the game. As a organization we just suck at developing players and Danny Ainge sucks at drafting players. He kept going at the same type of player and keep on missing.

Young got sent to the D-League, which is night and day from the NBA experience.

Olynk played sparingly which is largely due he's part of getting into foul trouble and Stevens trying to micro manage everyone

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 07:54:40 PM »

Offline Who

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The difference between us and Jazz is that they given their players minutes to develop and learn the game. As a organization we just suck at developing players and Danny Ainge sucks at drafting players. He kept going at the same type of player and keep on missing.

Young got sent to the D-League, which is night and day from the NBA experience.

Olynk played sparingly which is largely due he's part of getting into foul trouble and Stevens trying to micro manage everyone

Agreed -- I'm frustrated at how the Celtics organization has developed their young players over last couple of seasons and it looks like it is going to continue to be a problem over next few years as well.

Utah have done a great job of developing their young talent recently. Having an ex-Spurs man like Dennis Lindsey has helped them no doubt. Patience and believe in the process.

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 08:16:49 PM »

Offline Big333223

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What players have the Celtics not developed to expectations?

They turned Kendrick Perkins from a tall kid without a single recognizeable NBA skill into the starting center on a championship team (and two other Finals teams).

Avery Bradley was a 19th overall pick who has turned into all defensive 2nd teamer.

Rondo was a 21st overall pick who had 2 top ten finishes in MVP voting while in Boston.

Marcus Smart was the #6 pick and made the rookie 2nd team.

So beause Jared Sullinger (21st pick) and Kelly Olynyk (13th pick in a terrible draft) aren't all stars yet, the Celtics are bad at developing talent?
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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 08:23:27 PM »

Offline Greenbean

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The difference between us and Jazz is that they given their players minutes to develop and learn the game. As a organization we just suck at developing players and Danny Ainge sucks at drafting players. He kept going at the same type of player and keep on missing.

Young got sent to the D-League, which is night and day from the NBA experience.

Olynk played sparingly which is largely due he's part of getting into foul trouble and Stevens trying to micro manage everyone

Agreed -- I'm frustrated at how the Celtics organization has developed their young players over last couple of seasons and it looks like it is going to continue to be a problem over next few years as well.

Utah have done a great job of developing their young talent recently. Having an ex-Spurs man like Dennis Lindsey has helped them no doubt. Patience and believe in the process.

I think the Celts could benefit by adding some new blood in the front office. How much value add is Austin Ainge?

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 08:32:35 PM »

Offline Who

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So because Jared Sullinger (21st pick) and Kelly Olynyk (13th pick in a terrible draft) aren't all stars yet, the Celtics are bad at developing talent?

My unhappiness with the development of the young players is since the team traded off KG + Pierce and started rebuilding. I am happy with how things were prior to that -- that was a team trying to win titles and clearly in a win-now mode. They did as well as they could under those circumstances. But the team is rebuilding now. I expected more of a focus on youth and developing that youth.

I am not happy at how Sullinger's and Olynyk's development has been handled.

I don't like the constant flow of veteran PFs eating into their playing time. Brandon Bass for two years. Kris Humphries. Jerebko. Now David Lee coming in.

I do not like the changing roles and playing guys in roles that they are ill-suited to. Especially Sully -- who after showing good talent (and defense) as a PF in his rookie season alongside a strong interior defender in KG at center -- has been forced to play as a center which is position he should not be asked to play for almost all of his minutes in his 2nd season and a large amount of his minutes last season.

Their development has never been priority which disappoints me.

Which worries me about all these new young perimeter players. Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter. Maybe Thorton. How are these guys going to get the minutes they need in the future to work on their games? The Celtics backcourt is already packed (Smart, Bradley, I.Thomas taking 90% of minutes). They clearly didn't make much of an effort for Sullinger or Olynyk. Will they for those guards? Probably not.

Ainge has invested a lot into getting and keeping these draft picks. I'd like to see more of an effort to actually grow these young players.

... which won't happen under current rebuilding method which disappoints me but I am coming to terms with. It is just a different way forward to the one I was expecting.

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 08:47:40 PM »

Offline Big333223

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What, in your mind, is missing from the development? Is it strictly a question of playing time?

Both Sullinger and Olynyk are playing more than 20 mpg and are being asked to earn their time, rather than simply have minutes handed to them. I prefer that strategy, instilling in these guys that winning is always paramount. I'm not sure where you think these two should be in their development but I'd say they're right where you'd hope them to be, if you're being realistic.
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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 08:51:53 PM »

Offline Greenbean

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So because Jared Sullinger (21st pick) and Kelly Olynyk (13th pick in a terrible draft) aren't all stars yet, the Celtics are bad at developing talent?

My unhappiness with the development of the young players is since the team traded off KG + Pierce and started rebuilding. I am happy with how things were prior to that -- that was a team trying to win titles and clearly in a win-now mode. They did as well as they could under those circumstances. But the team is rebuilding now. I expected more of a focus on youth and developing that youth.

I am not happy at how Sullinger's and Olynyk's development has been handled.

I don't like the constant flow of veteran PFs eating into their playing time. Brandon Bass for two years. Kris Humphries. Jerebko. Now David Lee coming in.

I do not like the changing roles and playing guys in roles that they are ill-suited to. Especially Sully -- who after showing good talent (and defense) as a PF in his rookie season alongside a strong interior defender in KG at center -- has been forced to play as a center which is position he should not be asked to play for almost all of his minutes in his 2nd season and a large amount of his minutes last season.

Their development has never been priority which disappoints me.

Which worries me about all these new young perimeter players. Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter. Maybe Thorton. How are these guys going to get the minutes they need in the future to work on their games? The Celtics backcourt is already packed (Smart, Bradley, I.Thomas taking 90% of minutes). They clearly didn't make much of an effort for Sullinger or Olynyk. Will they for those guards? Probably not.

Ainge has invested a lot into getting and keeping these draft picks. I'd like to see more of an effort to actually grow these young players.

... which won't happen under current rebuilding method which disappoints me but I am coming to terms with. It is just a different way forward to the one I was expecting.

I agree with a lot of this. But another viewpoint could be that the veterans push the young guys and they can be brought along more slowly to learn good winning habits under the vets.

Compeltely agree with the Sully playing center point. Counter productive.

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 08:59:45 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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... which won't happen under current rebuilding method which disappoints me but I am coming to terms with. It is just a different way forward to the one I was expecting.

I'm with you.  I too am disappointed in the way things have gone and dubious of the method that is being employed.

It seems like all along the team has tried to have its cake and eat it too. 

Wanting to rebuild without going for a full-on youth movement or focusing entirely on improving the team's outlook a few years ahead as opposed to adding pieces to make the team better in the here and now.

Personally, I feel like half measures garner half results.  I can be on board with a rebuild plan and keep the faith in the team through difficult seasons as long as it seems like there is a clear plan in place not based on getting lucky or other teams being incompetent.


Ah well.  It is what it is.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 09:02:21 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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The young players need to earn playing time and Anige sucks at drafting? Laughable.

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 09:03:35 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The difference between us and Jazz is that they given their players minutes to develop and learn the game. As a organization we just suck at developing players and Danny Ainge sucks at drafting players. He kept going at the same type of player and keep on missing.

Young got sent to the D-League, which is night and day from the NBA experience.

Olynk played sparingly which is largely due he's part of getting into foul trouble and Stevens trying to micro manage everyone

Agreed -- I'm frustrated at how the Celtics organization has developed their young players over last couple of seasons and it looks like it is going to continue to be a problem over next few years as well.

Utah have done a great job of developing their young talent recently. Having an ex-Spurs man like Dennis Lindsey has helped them no doubt. Patience and believe in the process.

But but ... agreeing with this would require us to acknowledge that maybe the Celts aren't as exceptionally well-run and coached as we like to believe.  If we don't have that to feel superior about, what do we have?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 09:11:26 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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The Jazz started their rebuild with Deron Williams, an All-NBA talent they were able to move for a #3 pick (Favors), another #3 (Kanter) and a pick they used to draft Trey Burke in the top 10.

We are pretty far away from having such an option right now.
While that's true, the Celtics' rebuild started with sending our Pierce/KG and we've still got two brooklyn picks (and a sawp) yet to convey. If one of those picks winds up high, we're in business.

Yes, but the Nets have no incentive to be bad and have tons of money (and starting next year, cap space) to make sure they are at least mediocre.

Expect those picks to end up in the 12-20 range and you won't be disappointed.

I'd say that's about fair the way things look right now. Late-lottery seems likely. I've even liked some if the moves Billy King made this off season. The Young for KG trade was ridiculous. Getting RHJ was a good move.

But the thing about them is, there doing this high wire act where they have no incentive to tank because they owe us our picks. But from where they were after the Pierce and KG trade, they had really limited options for staying competitive. So the get the 8th seed this year after Lopez justs busts out. He's the main reason they even sniffed the playoffs. Yet their totally strapped when it comes to cap space, so their only choice to stay competitive was to give Lopez a long huge deal, which he covets based on his injury history. Lopez has bad feet, which can absolutely tank a big guys career. Johnson and Williams are on the decline. But they're still your second and fourth best players. How much value are you gonna get for them? What's the chances the pieces you get in return are better immediate contributors. Literally all you have going forward next summer is cap space.

It's quite a tight-rope they're walking on and it's awesome having such a vested interest. If Lopez goes down for a significant period again, which is almost probable and certainly possible at this point, they're easily one of the worst teams in the east. That pick would probably be top-6. Even if Thad Young went down, they're probably a top-10 lottery team. But it really comes down to Lopez. He's the only significant player on that team. They've got all their eggs in his basket, and considering how many injuries he's had in his career, I'm not sure I would make that bet. But they didn't really have a choice, because if he left they still didn't have the space to sign anyone, and none of the game changers would go their anyway. They have to do whatever they possibly can to be mediocre. When you force someone's hand, they make bad moves. If Lopez goes down again, they're in serious trouble with very few avenues to turn things around. They literally need to get lucky just to be a run-of-the-mill, stuck in the middle, mediocre treadmill team like some of you guys are so afraid of becoming.

If everything doesn't fall their way, those picks could certainly be top-ten. Its definitely true the East is improving, but if one thinks that pushes us our of the playoff picture, it surely does the Nets too. It's possible Lopez has a monster year, they get the 7th seed, we get the 8th and Dallas makes the playoffs, which would give us like #15, #16 and #19. I bet Ainge could move up a bit with that. But that's a worst case scenario. If this Brooklyn tight-rope act falls on it's face, Lopez gets injured again, they trade Johnson and Williams or they just get passed by improving teams in the East we could be in for a top ten pick easily.

Just imagine if we got #7, #12 and #15. We could do a lot with that. I'm excited for what's ahead. Ainge is smart, one of the best GMs in the league and his goal to keep us flexible enough to stay out of that "also-ran stuck in the middle, mediocre 8th seed" for long. He can go any direction he wants with this team because he's not signing a bunch of third-tier players to long term big money deals. He can easily start a fire sale and sell these guys off if he thinks we can't otherwise compete for a chip. He's been dealt a tough hand here though. He sold off Rondo and Green with the idea that we'd get another top5-10 pick. But the team was actually much better without those guys, but they were still a lottery team. Then the Thomas deal comes along, which you absolutely have to take every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He fits perfectly, we become one of the hottest teams in the league and we get the 7th seed. Stevens is thrilled, and wants to keep building on what they have. We can't tank without a fire-sale, which will just in itself lower the value of our assets. For now, Ainge has decided to add some pieces that could fit well with this group yet stay very flexible with a size able trove of assets and an improving young team.

I think we could win the Atlantic this year right now, and I feel pretty confident there is more moves to come. But I also think we could be in the lottery as a .500 team. When you consider the cards we've been dealt since the Brooklyn trade, I think This is the right play. Retaining your ability to generate large cap space if needed, keeping your sizeable trove of assets to keep you in play for a major trade if one comes along, and covering deficiencies in your growing young core is a smart move. Our 3 1sts this year aren't likely to be higher than 20, and that Brooklyn pick could easily be gold.

Al Jefferson was picked #15 and he got us KG, Pierce was picked number #10. You don't always need a top 3 pick to make a game-changing move. Patience is the key here.

Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2015, 09:16:58 PM »

Offline Big333223

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It seems like all along the team has tried to have its cake and eat it too. 

Wanting to rebuild without going for a full-on youth movement or focusing entirely on improving the team's outlook a few years ahead as opposed to adding pieces to make the team better in the here and now.
This comment is totally divorced from reality. After trading Pierce and Garnett, Ainge then traded Green and Rondo for youth and picks. Over the past two seasons, Ainge has systematically gutted the team in favor of youth and future assetts. The only exception has been Thomas (who is only 25 and on a crazy inexpensive contract) and now the Amir Johnson/David Lee deals, which could still be part of a bigger deal later.

The team went all in on the rebuild, trying to tank, but the East's bottom is already so bad and the team outperformed expecations last season. It definitely wasn't for lack of trying to tank by the front office.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:24:47 PM by Big333223 »
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Re: All we need is for one player to hit
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2015, 09:17:48 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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The difference between us and Jazz is that they given their players minutes to develop and learn the game. As a organization we just suck at developing players and Danny Ainge sucks at drafting players. He kept going at the same type of player and keep on missing.

Young got sent to the D-League, which is night and day from the NBA experience.

Olynk played sparingly which is largely due he's part of getting into foul trouble and Stevens trying to micro manage everyone

Agreed -- I'm frustrated at how the Celtics organization has developed their young players over last couple of seasons and it looks like it is going to continue to be a problem over next few years as well.

Utah have done a great job of developing their young talent recently. Having an ex-Spurs man like Dennis Lindsey has helped them no doubt. Patience and believe in the process.

But but ... agreeing with this would require us to acknowledge that maybe the Celts aren't as exceptionally well-run and coached as we like to believe.  If we don't have that to feel superior about, what do we have?

I don't see why it's necessary to believe that the Celtics are not as well run because another team found what's working for them. Utah has their own method, Boston has theirs and I think they're doing a good job so far.