Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier

[crimson_stallion]

So this as creditable as the reports that C's likely trade up? Lol

Well obviously there was some truth in the 'trade up' discussion because Ainge has directly confirmed that he was trying extremely hard to trade up...

Plus some of those trade claims involved the Knicks and Hornets, who we now know (in hindsight) that Danny did make offers to.

Just because the deals never happened, doesn't mean the claims (that he was trying to make deals) was false.

Likewise there is every chance that Danny is making offers to other teams that include Smart.  Doesn't mean one of those deals is actually going to happen...

[RockinRyA]

So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

I like Smart a lot and Im a huge TA fan. Right now its looking like TA is a better player offensively. People forget how good he was during his first few years. However, despite the shooting percentages shown, it looks to me like Smart is the better shooter while also a better passer. Defensively TA is better at it, while Smart plays smarter defensively (doesnt bite as much on upfakes and less gambling) although that can change in a few years as smart is just a rookie.

[Jonny CC]

So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

I like Smart a lot and Im a huge TA fan. Right now its looking like TA is a better player offensively. People forget how good he was during his first few years. However, despite the shooting percentages shown, it looks to me like Smart is the better shooter while also a better passer. Defensively TA is better at it, while Smart plays smarter defensively (doesnt bite as much on upfakes and less gambling) although that can change in a few years as smart is just a rookie.

Smart had a better rookie year than TA and he wasn't 100% healthy.  I expect Smart to continue to be better than TA in the future. 

[hwangjini_1]

So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

I like Smart a lot and Im a huge TA fan. Right now its looking like TA is a better player offensively. People forget how good he was during his first few years. However, despite the shooting percentages shown, it looks to me like Smart is the better shooter while also a better passer. Defensively TA is better at it, while Smart plays smarter defensively (doesnt bite as much on upfakes and less gambling) although that can change in a few years as smart is just a rookie.

Nor does smart dribble the ball off his foot like Allen did with regularity.  God, watching Allen in a half court offense was amazing, and not in a good way.

I see two different players. Allen was an athletic freak who played above the rim in his early years.  But he had no coherent offensive game, mostly put backs etc. plus Allen's a less than brilliant player.

Smart is, well, smarter. He does not play above the rim, but he plays the team game better. Smarts offense is limited right now, and may still be in the future. But he has the potential to become a better jump shot shooter than Allen was.

[truthhurts34]

So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

Are we cherry picking Allen's stats to make it seem like he's a better offensive player than Smart? I think you are. You highlight TA's "39%" 3pt shooting his rookie year but fail to mention how he played less minutes than Smart did this season and shot WAY less of them. Oh, and the fact that he's got a broken jumper, is a career 27% 3pt shooter and has had seasons where he shot less than 20% from that range. It's not debatable, Smart is a better shooter right now than TA has ever been.

And really, you said " In Allen's prime he averaged more points". So in TA's prime he managed more than 10 points a game once. Your really comparing a guys best seasons in his prime to a guy in his rookie year? That's insane. I get that you hate Smart, but that's ridiculous. Smart averaged just about 10 points a game after the Rondo trade AS A ROOKIE. You can't compare a guys prime years against another guys rookie year and say "Look! He averaged more points! TA is the better offensive player!" Because it's not a fair comparison.

But what I really wanna know is why your just ignoring the context of his stat line? You say he can't drive to the hoop but he clearly showed he can, especially toward the end of the season when the ankle started to improve. Have you ever played basketball? You can't just drive to the hoop whenever you get passed the ball, it just doesn't work that way. Occasionally you can get a pass on the weak side and have one man to beat on the way to the rack, but most of the time drives are set up for via screens and picks that create driving lanes for the ball-handler. When your not a primary ball-handler, you don't get those opportunities. When your the 4th or 5th option, you won't have many opportunities to generate stats. If your disappointed with Smarts stat line, be disappointed in CBS for choosing to bring him along slowly instead of making him a featured option and playing through the bumps. Smart can, has, and will continue being able to drive to the hoop and get to the line. Just because he had limited chances to do so last season, and struggled when first returning from the ankle, doesn't make that any less true.

The only advantage TA has on Smart offensively is that he's more athletic. But in just about every other facet from shooting to passing to moving without the ball, free throw shooting to basketball IQ Smart is ALREADY a better offensive player than TA is, and at their same ages he's light years better. Even as a defender Smart is a much smarter, more instinctual and better defender than TA was at the same age with the same type of physical gifts.

You can say "I like Smart, he's a good defensive role player", but it's pretty obvious you don't. Idk, maybe it's just your boundless pessimism. But still, you can't compare Smarts stats as a rookie to TA's in his prime as if Smart at 20 years old will never develop and is the player he'll be forever right now, especially when it doesn't even support your argument and takes absolutely no consideration of context. You post here enough that I know you watch a lot of basketball, but sometimes it seems like your totally ignoring what you see on the court and looking solely at stat lines.

Pure ether. I don't even think it's the fact he doesn't like smart, he picked his stance and will argue it solely for arguments sake.

Clawing for meaningless stats like allens rookie year 3pt % as if it holds any weight. He made 12 3s that entire season....

 I'm just going to sit back, eat some popcorn and have a few more free laughs.

[Big333223]

Does anyone else get a Pitino-dealing-Billups vibe from the "trade Marcus Smart" talk? Billups' rookie numbers were slightly better than Smart's but not by much and he was a year older. It's not the same situation since Billups was gone before the end of his rookie year, but I'm more inclined to give Smart the chance to adjust to the speed of the NBA and really see what he can turn in to.

No, I don't think he's someone you build your team around but I do think he can be a Billups-caliber player. Someone who can competently lead a team with talent surrounding him and maybe make a couple of all star teams.

[LarBrd33]

So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

You are a spin machine.  Now you are trying to compare Smart (now) to Allen in his prime?  You tried to argue that Allen had a better ROOKIE year than Allen.  That's just wrong.   
And, Smart was better offensively than Bass in his rookie year too.

...

I said that Marcus Smart has a ways to go before he's on the same level as Tony Allen in his prime. 

Why people are bringing up Tony Allen's rookie stats... I don't know.  Tony Allen in his prime is better than Marcus Smart right now.  Smart will develop, hopefully.  Hopefully he'll surpass Allen.  Hopefully he'll end up a star player.   But right now, he's not as good as Tony Allen in his prime.

But let's just throw out some stats.

Allen Freshman:  14.4 points, 5.4 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.9 steals, 45%/39%/69% 
Allen Sophomore:  16 points, 5.5 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 2.1 steals, 50%/30%/68%
Allen Sophomore Per-40:  20.3 points, 7 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 2.6 steals, 50%/30%/68%

Smart Freshman:  15.4 points, 5.8 rebounds, 4.2 assits, 3 steals, 40%/29%/77%
Smart Sophomore:  18 points, 5.9 rebounds, 4.8 assits, 2.9 steals, 42%/29%/73%
Smart Sophomore Per-40:  22 points, 7.9 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 3.5 steals, 42%/29%/73%

Tony Allen Rookie per-36:  14 points, 6.3 rebounds, 1.8 assits, 2.2 steals, 48%/39%/74%
Allen offensive peak (age 25) 11.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.5 steals, 51%/24%/78%
Allen peak per-36 (age 25):  16.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.2 steals, 51%/24%/78%

Smart rookie:  7.8 points, 3.1 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 37%/33%/65%
Smart rookie per-36:  10.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 2 steals, 36%/33%/65%

I see them as pretty comparable players.  Smart has a ways to go until he's as good an offensive player as Allen became.   Smart might get stats, but the shooting percentages show that Allen was a better offensive player.  Smart hopefully will become a more complete player.   Smart struggled getting to the rim even in Summer league last season.  He was limited to taking shots... which speaks to his lack of offensive game.  Tony Allen, though prone to stupid decisions in his youth, didn't have a problem attacking the rim. 

[truthhurts34]

Does anyone else get a Pitino-dealing-Billups vibe from the "trade Marcus Smart" talk? Billups' rookie numbers were slightly better than Smart's but not by much and he was a year older. It's not the same situation since Billups was gone before the end of his rookie year, but I'm more inclined to give Smart the chance to adjust to the speed of the NBA and really see what he can turn in to.

No, I don't think he's someone you build your team around but I do think he can be a Billups-caliber player. Someone who can competently lead a team with talent surrounding him and maybe make a couple of all star teams.

I see what you're saying, I think ainge explored deals involving a bunch of players in our team.

I don't think that necessarily means we are actively shopping smart. Drafting rozier also does not mean smart is gone, it means pressey is gone. I expect his contract to not be picked up before the July 15th deadline. Rozier will get presseys minutes going forward, nothing more nothing less.

There really isn't more of a log jam at pg than there was before draft night if you take this into consideration.

[Big333223]

I see what you're saying, I think ainge explored deals involving a bunch of players in our team.

I don't think that necessarily means we are actively shopping smart. Drafting rozier also does not mean smart is gone, it means pressey is gone. I expect his contract to not be picked up before the July 15th deadline. Rozier will get presseys minutes going forward, nothing more nothing less.

There really isn't more of a log jam at pg than there was before draft night if you take this into consideration.

That's true. But I could also see why, if this is the case, people would be upset about spending the #16 pick in the draft on a guy who is going to play garbage time once in a while. My hope is Rozier demands more time than Pressey got.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I see what you're saying, I think ainge explored deals involving a bunch of players in our team.

I don't think that necessarily means we are actively shopping smart. Drafting rozier also does not mean smart is gone, it means pressey is gone. I expect his contract to not be picked up before the July 15th deadline. Rozier will get presseys minutes going forward, nothing more nothing less.

There really isn't more of a log jam at pg than there was before draft night if you take this into consideration.

That's true. But I could also see why, if this is the case, people would be upset about spending the #16 pick in the draft on a guy who is going to play garbage time once in a while. My hope is Rozier demands more time than Pressey got.

Most players after the top few usually don't get a lot of minutes. If someone does get upset about his minutes is that a knock to him or the team or wrong/unrealistic expectations?

[Boris Badenov]

Is Rozier a good enough passer to be a full time PG?
Without somebody (like Smart) alongside him to help shoulder the load in the backcourt?

Rozier is a better pg than Smart is.  Smart is a slightly undersized sg with average handles and first step.  Terrific defender. A tad more skilled version of Tony Allen

Do you realize that you've now said "Rozier is a better PG than Smart", compared Hunter to R. Allen and Redick, and Mickey to Taj Gibson? This just might be the greatest draft in franchise history.

Your statement on Rozier is false. He's not a better PG. He's an average ballhandler, who looks for his shot a lot. He's more of a Tony Delk type, in that he has good length and a scorers mentality. He actually has some good herky jerky moves, which he uses to attack the basket. I do like that he showed significant improvement from his freshman to sophomore season, is fearless, attacks the rim, is very active defensively, and played for a good coach.

This seems to sum up Rozier pretty well, don't you think?

Strengths: Defensively he has NBA skills as he is blessed with quick hands and solid lateral quickness ... Has a unique NBA ready body that is both strong and sturdy ... Can seemingly drive to the lane at will thanks to his great hesitation crossover move that gives him good separation from his defender... Once in the lane he has the uncanny ability to hang in the air and wait for the defense to commit before making his move ... Excellent rebounder for his size ... After he gets the ball he really looks to initiate the fast break ... Once he penetrates into the lane he is a hard player to stop as he is able to rely on his biggest asset which is the drive and dish ... Has developed solid leadership skills often he is a steady influence over his teammates ...Thanks to his wonderful court vision and creativity he has the ability to make difficult passes with pinpoint precision ...

[LooseCannon]

Does anyone else get a Pitino-dealing-Billups vibe from the "trade Marcus Smart" talk? Billups' rookie numbers were slightly better than Smart's but not by much and he was a year older. It's not the same situation since Billups was gone before the end of his rookie year, but I'm more inclined to give Smart the chance to adjust to the speed of the NBA and really see what he can turn in to.

No, I don't think he's someone you build your team around but I do think he can be a Billups-caliber player. Someone who can competently lead a team with talent surrounding him and maybe make a couple of all star teams.

No.  Pitino giving up on Billups is different from Ainge probably seeing Smart as a prime asset who he wants to get top value for if he trades him.

[GreenPride17]

Maybe Danny knows Smart isn't as good as everyone on here think's he is and wants to trade him while his Value is still pretty high

[jambr380]

Does anyone else get a Pitino-dealing-Billups vibe from the "trade Marcus Smart" talk? Billups' rookie numbers were slightly better than Smart's but not by much and he was a year older. It's not the same situation since Billups was gone before the end of his rookie year, but I'm more inclined to give Smart the chance to adjust to the speed of the NBA and really see what he can turn in to.

No, I don't think he's someone you build your team around but I do think he can be a Billups-caliber player. Someone who can competently lead a team with talent surrounding him and maybe make a couple of all star teams.

No.  Pitino giving up on Billups is different from Ainge probably seeing Smart as a prime asset who he wants to get top value for if he trades him.

Yeah, as popular as Smart is (and rightfully so), I don't think many would be disappointed if we acquired Noel for him.

Also, while Billups ended up having a very good career, Kenny Anderson played quite well for us. It wasn't the best move, but Billups took several years to develop and Anderson helped us win games when we were actually good.

[crimson_stallion]

Honestly, I don't really see why people are comparing Tony Allen to Smart so much.  I can certainly see the similarities defensively, but on the offensive end I feel they are two completely different players.

Tony Allen's only real offensive talent ever has been his ability to attack the basket using his strength and explosiveness/athleticicm.  He has always had a pretty weak jump shot, and he has the passing and ball handling skills make Avery Bradley look like John Wall.   

Smart doesn't have Allen's explosiveness and isn't nearly as effective (at least yet) at attacking the basket, but he is already a legitimate threat from three, and he's a perfectly capable (if not exceptional) passer and ball handler.  Not good enough a shooter that you have to game plan for him, but good enough that if you leave him open he'll hurt you - a lot.  Likewise not good enough as a ball handler / passer to dominate the defense, but good enough that defenses have stopped trying to press/trap him - he's shown he's capable of getting around (or passing out of) those situations.

I think Smart has better PG skills than people think, he just doesn't make it obvious because he doesn't have a fancy/flashy style of play that makes those skills stand out (as Rondo did). He's just makes the simple pass and does a good job of using his body well to protect the dribble, much like Paul Pierce does. Just a fundamentally sound player, which is why he had a positive Offensive RPM despite not really putting up amazing offensive box-score numbers.

As for Rozier, I don't think he has as good instincts / good court feel as Smart (Court vision, play making instincts, etc) so I don't think he's ever going to be a natural, play-making PG.  That said,  the NBA has been trending away from that type of PG for a few years now, and has been trending more towards using score-first combo guards (Bledsoe / Holiday / Monta Ellis type guys) at the PG spot. You don't really need to be a great (or even good) passer to play the PG spot in today's NBA - if you can handle the ball effectively enough to break traps and presses, can score to some degree, and can connect on simple passes, then you can play the PG spot in 2015. 

For that reason Rozier probably becomes an immediate upgrade over Bradley because Bradley's lack of confidence as a ball handler (even more-so than his passing ability) restricts him from being able to play that position.  Rozier adds that extra degree of versatility, while also having the potential to be just as good as Bradley as both a defender and a scorer.  This is why I feel he's going to one day replace Bradley on the roster one day.

Replacing Smart with Rozier is probably not quite as easy, because Rozier doesn't have Smart's defensive versatility and I can't see him being able to contain guys like Harden with the same type of effectiveness that Smart can.