Question: EXACTLY how much cap space do Cs have this summer?

[Moranis]

If someone could answer this, I'd appreciate it.

I seem to be hearing different amounts from 20 mil to 27 mil.

Without much maneuvering (example, trading or stretching Wallace) we should be able to manufacture about $30-$33 million and that includes cap holds on 1st round picks. And it also includes cap hold on Jae Crowder, which is a given it's going to happen.

I'm also working on the assumption of a projected cap of about $67 million.

With Wallace: $22,934,306 or so.
Without Wallace: $33,040,161 or so.
Stretching Wallace: $29,671,543 or so.

Thanks. Man if we can somehow give Wallace the boot, it be great to have in the area of 30 million in cap space.

It would be more advantageous to use Wallace in a sign-and-trade, rather than giving him the boot.  Doing so effectively increases our ability to acquire free agents by $5 million.

My initial thought is not to trade (by giving up a 1st) or stretch Wallace unless we need it.  But sure where you are coming from with a sign and trade?  He is already signed; and has negative value.

Now, if  another team wanted to trade for him to clear space, that's another thing.  But we'd need to take on long term salary coming back or else what's the point for the other team?

I think he might sign and trade for a free agent and send Wallace back as the matching salary (plus whatever else the other team needs to take on Wallace and facilitate a sign and trade).

He's saying use Wallace in a sign and trade. As in trade Wallace for a player getting a big contract to whom we then sign to said contract.

Ah, got it. 

Well, still trying to figure out whether the motivation would be there.  If the other team is under the cap, I presume they would have to heavily compensated (beyond an average first round pick) to take on Wallace even for just one year.  And even if they are not below the cap, they'd be paying 10 mil for a first round pick.  That's too much unless it is a guaranteed lottery pick and even then I would flinch.

As for packaging players and Wallace, not sure how much value we have to package?

It could be a three-team trade.  Wallace and the draft pick could go to the Sixers, another player or pick could go to the free agent's original team, and we get the free agent.  For example, if Love and Jordan both agreed to sign in Boston for the max, one could sign outright, while the other would be traded for.  Because we can sign either one outright, we'd have some leverage with Cleveland and Clippers, since the first one that takes the offer gets something, while the other gets nothing.  Accordingly, someone like Sully could be sent to Cleveland, with maybe  a pick, as well as Pressey and Babb to match salaries, while Wallace gets sent to Philly (or Orlando or Utah or Minny or even Portland if LMA leaves).  This would create about a $17 million exception for the team losing the free agent, which is useful too.

The hardest part of using Wallace to create more salary space is convincing two max free agents to sign here.  The easy part is to negotiate with teams, because there are 29 teams in the league, and someone will step up if compensated with cash and picks.

Or they could both say F-U and Boston only gets one of them.

[greece66]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

And Shavlid Randolph 

To this 40 mil are included qualifying offers to Gigi (2 mill) and Phil (1 mill). So, if necessary we can easily make this 26 mill.

[saltlover]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

Crowder has a cap hold of about $1.15 million.  The cap hold for a roster spot is about $520k.  His extra space taken up is largely negligible ($600k) in the scheme of roster management.  Expect him to be given his qualifying offer and taking up cap space during the free agency period.

[saltlover]

If someone could answer this, I'd appreciate it.

I seem to be hearing different amounts from 20 mil to 27 mil.

Without much maneuvering (example, trading or stretching Wallace) we should be able to manufacture about $30-$33 million and that includes cap holds on 1st round picks. And it also includes cap hold on Jae Crowder, which is a given it's going to happen.

I'm also working on the assumption of a projected cap of about $67 million.

With Wallace: $22,934,306 or so.
Without Wallace: $33,040,161 or so.
Stretching Wallace: $29,671,543 or so.

Thanks. Man if we can somehow give Wallace the boot, it be great to have in the area of 30 million in cap space.

It would be more advantageous to use Wallace in a sign-and-trade, rather than giving him the boot.  Doing so effectively increases our ability to acquire free agents by $5 million.

My initial thought is not to trade (by giving up a 1st) or stretch Wallace unless we need it.  But sure where you are coming from with a sign and trade?  He is already signed; and has negative value.

Now, if  another team wanted to trade for him to clear space, that's another thing.  But we'd need to take on long term salary coming back or else what's the point for the other team?

I think he might sign and trade for a free agent and send Wallace back as the matching salary (plus whatever else the other team needs to take on Wallace and facilitate a sign and trade).

He's saying use Wallace in a sign and trade. As in trade Wallace for a player getting a big contract to whom we then sign to said contract.

Ah, got it. 

Well, still trying to figure out whether the motivation would be there.  If the other team is under the cap, I presume they would have to heavily compensated (beyond an average first round pick) to take on Wallace even for just one year.  And even if they are not below the cap, they'd be paying 10 mil for a first round pick.  That's too much unless it is a guaranteed lottery pick and even then I would flinch.

As for packaging players and Wallace, not sure how much value we have to package?

It could be a three-team trade.  Wallace and the draft pick could go to the Sixers, another player or pick could go to the free agent's original team, and we get the free agent.  For example, if Love and Jordan both agreed to sign in Boston for the max, one could sign outright, while the other would be traded for.  Because we can sign either one outright, we'd have some leverage with Cleveland and Clippers, since the first one that takes the offer gets something, while the other gets nothing.  Accordingly, someone like Sully could be sent to Cleveland, with maybe  a pick, as well as Pressey and Babb to match salaries, while Wallace gets sent to Philly (or Orlando or Utah or Minny or even Portland if LMA leaves).  This would create about a $17 million exception for the team losing the free agent, which is useful too.

The hardest part of using Wallace to create more salary space is convincing two max free agents to sign here.  The easy part is to negotiate with teams, because there are 29 teams in the league, and someone will step up if compensated with cash and picks.

Or they could both say F-U and Boston only gets one of them.

Not really.  Boston wouldn't have much trouble at all finding takers for Turner and Young to create the extra room needed, and could then sign both outright.

[PhoSita]

So roughly 20 million in cap space, probably.  Closer to 25 if they get rid of Wallace.

I think Ainge will look to sign or otherwise acquire a couple guys in the $10-12 million range.

Perhaps trade or stretch Wallace if needed to take on somebody with a salary closer to $15 million.

$25 million or so in space would be enough to take on both Hibbert and Gallinari.

[LarBrd33]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

Crowder has a cap hold of about $1.15 million.  The cap hold for a roster spot is about $520k.  His extra space taken up is largely negligible ($600k) in the scheme of roster management.  Expect him to be given his qualifying offer and taking up cap space during the free agency period.

I see this brought up a lot about how his cap hold is only 1 mil.  Yeah, we'll give him a qualifying offer... but Jae Crowder also has to look out for Jae Crowder... and if he goes out and signs an offer sheet with a team quick, we'll be forced to either let him walk or match the offer.  How much do you suspect Crowder is getting on the open market?  Cuz if it's 6 mil per year or something, you'll have a tough decision... do you want 23 mil in cap space or do you want to bring back Crowder and have 17 mil?  Once again, this assumes we let Bass walk.  If we're trying to sign a guy like Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge, I think we'll need 20 mil in cap space to offer a max contract.

A lot of this can be alleviated by dumping Wallace, but that will cost us a 1st rounder. 

[saltlover]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

Crowder has a cap hold of about $1.15 million.  The cap hold for a roster spot is about $520k.  His extra space taken up is largely negligible ($600k) in the scheme of roster management.  Expect him to be given his qualifying offer and taking up cap space during the free agency period.

I see this brought up a lot about how his cap hold is only 1 mil.  Yeah, we'll give him a qualifying offer... but Jae Crowder also has to look out for Jae Crowder... and if he goes out and signs an offer sheet with a team quick, we'll be forced to either let him walk or match the offer.  How much do you suspect Crowder is getting on the open market?  Cuz if it's 6 mil per year or something, you'll have a tough decision... do you want 23 mil in cap space or do you want to bring back Crowder and have 17 mil?  Once again, this assumes we let Bass walk.  If we're trying to sign a guy like Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge, I think we'll need 20 mil in cap space to offer a max contract.

A lot of this can be alleviated by dumping Wallace, but that will cost us a 1st rounder.

Yes, but the earliest Crowder could sign an offer sheet would be July 9th, and the Celtics would have until July 13th to match it.  The Celtics essentially have until July 12th at the earliest to figure out what to do with Crowder.  It's pretty unlikely that the big name free agents won't have figured out what they want to do by then. So while, you're correct, Crowder can't wait around for the Celtics, practically speaking, I don't expect that to be an issue.  The C's cap dollars should be either allocated, or determined that they will be unallocated, by the time it matters.

Edit: Also, with regards to Bass.  His cap hold is over $10 million.  He's not getting that.  Cap holds are really only useful to keep if you're a) already over the cap, or b) under the cap, but wish to sign a player for more than his cap hold (aka Crowder).  While Bass won't be renounced until his cap space is needed, understand that Bass essentially should be treated like any other non-roster free agent.  The Celtics have a pool of money for free agents, and Bass is just another free agent.

[PhoSita]

The C's cap dollars should be either allocated, or determined that they will be unallocated, by the time it matters.

Agreed.  I expect Ainge to have made his big move (or moves) within the first week or so of free agency.

Crowder won't get more than $5 or 6 million a year, in any case, due to his lack of size and poor outside shooting.  I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up signing for $3 or 4 million per.

Like Aminu, Crowder could get $7-8 million a year, or even as much as $10 in the new cap environment, if he became a reliable outside shooter like Matt Barnes or Danny Green.  Failing that, the best he'll see is an MLE type offer.

[Ed Hollison]

One thing the Cs could do would be to try and use Wallace's expiring contract and pick(s) to trade for a star who is already under contract, and then use that move as enticement for a second guy via free agency. That's essentially what they did in 2007 with Ray Allen, who helped the Cs pitch Garnett on the idea of coming to Boston. (Yes, I realize Garnett was also traded, but you get the point.)

Could this work this time around? If so, who might that first star be? I think it could end up being someone we are not at all thinking about right now, maybe someone with 1-2 years still on his current deal.

[saltlover]

One thing the Cs could do would be to try and use Wallace's expiring contract and pick(s) to trade for a star who is already under contract, and then use that move as enticement for a second guy via free agency. That's essentially what they did in 2007 with Ray Allen, who helped the Cs pitch Garnett on the idea of coming to Boston. (Yes, I realize Garnett was also traded, but you get the point.)

Could this work this time around? If so, who might that first star be? I think it could end up being someone we are not at all thinking about right now, maybe someone with 1-2 years still on his current deal.

While that's true, if the player makes substantially more than Wallace, it will take up cap room, and could potentially limit the amount of money the C's can offer the big free agent.  But it is possible, and there are certainly players who will be moved this summer.

[PhoSita]

One thing the Cs could do would be to try and use Wallace's expiring contract and pick(s) to trade for a star who is already under contract, and then use that move as enticement for a second guy via free agency. That's essentially what they did in 2007 with Ray Allen, who helped the Cs pitch Garnett on the idea of coming to Boston. (Yes, I realize Garnett was also traded, but you get the point.)

Could this work this time around? If so, who might that first star be? I think it could end up being someone we are not at all thinking about right now, maybe someone with 1-2 years still on his current deal.

They're not stars, but both Eric Gordon and David Lee will probably be available this summer for any team with the cap space to absorb the bulk of their deals without sending much, if anything, back in terms of actual salary.

Gallinari is another guy who's shown the ability to be a quality scorer in this league who I expect to be available for not much.

Hibbert, if he opts in for the final year of his deal, may be up for trade for a relatively small price, again given the ability of the team trading for him to take on most or all of his contract without sending salary back.


I honestly can't think of any names equivalent to Ray Allen circa 2007 that would be available.  Keep in mind, too, that the Celts traded a top 5 pick to get Ray.  They don't have one of those -- or any asset of comparable value -- this time around.

[BudweiserCeltic]

If someone could answer this, I'd appreciate it.

I seem to be hearing different amounts from 20 mil to 27 mil.

Without much maneuvering (example, trading or stretching Wallace) we should be able to manufacture about $30-$33 million and that includes cap holds on 1st round picks. And it also includes cap hold on Jae Crowder, which is a given it's going to happen.

I'm also working on the assumption of a projected cap of about $67 million.

With Wallace: $22,934,306 or so.
Without Wallace: $33,040,161 or so.
Stretching Wallace: $29,671,543 or so.

Thanks. Man if we can somehow give Wallace the boot, it be great to have in the area of 30 million in cap space.

It really depends, if anyone is worth using the cap space on or not. If we don't find takers for the cap space, we might just be better off keeping Wallace and conserving the draft pick until the trade deadline to see what comes up by then.

But yeah, the point in all of this is that as things stand, we have anywhere from $23 million - $33 million to work without doing anything outlandish. This includes the 1st round picks cap holds, this includes the Crowder QO, and it ignores all the team options and free-agents who can/should be renounced.

Obsessing over Jerebko / Bass and the likes is fairly pointless, and I hope Ainge is smart enough to not do so as well. Retaining those two players should be plan Z.

[LarBrd33]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

Crowder has a cap hold of about $1.15 million.  The cap hold for a roster spot is about $520k.  His extra space taken up is largely negligible ($600k) in the scheme of roster management.  Expect him to be given his qualifying offer and taking up cap space during the free agency period.

I see this brought up a lot about how his cap hold is only 1 mil.  Yeah, we'll give him a qualifying offer... but Jae Crowder also has to look out for Jae Crowder... and if he goes out and signs an offer sheet with a team quick, we'll be forced to either let him walk or match the offer.  How much do you suspect Crowder is getting on the open market?  Cuz if it's 6 mil per year or something, you'll have a tough decision... do you want 23 mil in cap space or do you want to bring back Crowder and have 17 mil?  Once again, this assumes we let Bass walk.  If we're trying to sign a guy like Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge, I think we'll need 20 mil in cap space to offer a max contract.

A lot of this can be alleviated by dumping Wallace, but that will cost us a 1st rounder.

Yes, but the earliest Crowder could sign an offer sheet would be July 9th, and the Celtics would have until July 13th to match it.  The Celtics essentially have until July 12th at the earliest to figure out what to do with Crowder.  It's pretty unlikely that the big name free agents won't have figured out what they want to do by then. So while, you're correct, Crowder can't wait around for the Celtics, practically speaking, I don't expect that to be an issue.  The C's cap dollars should be either allocated, or determined that they will be unallocated, by the time it matters.

Edit: Also, with regards to Bass.  His cap hold is over $10 million.  He's not getting that.  Cap holds are really only useful to keep if you're a) already over the cap, or b) under the cap, but wish to sign a player for more than his cap hold (aka Crowder).  While Bass won't be renounced until his cap space is needed, understand that Bass essentially should be treated like any other non-roster free agent.  The Celtics have a pool of money for free agents, and Bass is just another free agent.

So what you're saying is that we can begin our negotiations with free agents on July 1st... and then as of July 8th, they can sign contracts.  So even if Crowder signs an offer sheet on day 1, he still only counts against our cap for 1 million for the next 3 days until we match?... so even if Crowder improbably signed a max deal, we could utilize our 20 mil in cap space From July 8-12th (while Crowder only counts as 1 mil against our cap hold) and then match his improbable max deal on the 12th??  So essentially his cap hold isn't impacted by the offer sheet he signs?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

Crowder has a cap hold of about $1.15 million.  The cap hold for a roster spot is about $520k.  His extra space taken up is largely negligible ($600k) in the scheme of roster management.  Expect him to be given his qualifying offer and taking up cap space during the free agency period.

I see this brought up a lot about how his cap hold is only 1 mil.  Yeah, we'll give him a qualifying offer... but Jae Crowder also has to look out for Jae Crowder... and if he goes out and signs an offer sheet with a team quick, we'll be forced to either let him walk or match the offer.  How much do you suspect Crowder is getting on the open market?  Cuz if it's 6 mil per year or something, you'll have a tough decision... do you want 23 mil in cap space or do you want to bring back Crowder and have 17 mil?  Once again, this assumes we let Bass walk.  If we're trying to sign a guy like Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge, I think we'll need 20 mil in cap space to offer a max contract.

A lot of this can be alleviated by dumping Wallace, but that will cost us a 1st rounder.

Yes, but the earliest Crowder could sign an offer sheet would be July 9th, and the Celtics would have until July 13th to match it.  The Celtics essentially have until July 12th at the earliest to figure out what to do with Crowder.  It's pretty unlikely that the big name free agents won't have figured out what they want to do by then. So while, you're correct, Crowder can't wait around for the Celtics, practically speaking, I don't expect that to be an issue.  The C's cap dollars should be either allocated, or determined that they will be unallocated, by the time it matters.

Edit: Also, with regards to Bass.  His cap hold is over $10 million.  He's not getting that.  Cap holds are really only useful to keep if you're a) already over the cap, or b) under the cap, but wish to sign a player for more than his cap hold (aka Crowder).  While Bass won't be renounced until his cap space is needed, understand that Bass essentially should be treated like any other non-roster free agent.  The Celtics have a pool of money for free agents, and Bass is just another free agent.

So what you're saying is that we can begin our negotiations with free agents on July 1st... and then as of July 8th, they can sign contracts.  So even if Crowder signs an offer sheet on day 1, he still only counts against our cap for 1 million for the next 3 days until we match?... so even if Crowder improbably signed a max deal, we could utilize our 20 mil in cap space From July 8-12th (while Crowder only counts as 1 mil against our cap hold) and then match his improbable max deal on the 12th??  So essentially his cap hold isn't impacted by the offer sheet he signs?

I need to refresh my memory, but I think if he signs an offer sheet the amount of the offer sheet (at least the first year) counts as a cap hold against us while we decide to match it or not.

[LarBrd33]

Salary cap for this season was 63 millon, Boston has 40 million in the books for next year. So about 23 million, give or take. This is per HoopsHype and RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

23 mil is how it looks to me as well.  That's if we let Bass, Crowder and Jerebko walk, right?

Crowder has a cap hold of about $1.15 million.  The cap hold for a roster spot is about $520k.  His extra space taken up is largely negligible ($600k) in the scheme of roster management.  Expect him to be given his qualifying offer and taking up cap space during the free agency period.

I see this brought up a lot about how his cap hold is only 1 mil.  Yeah, we'll give him a qualifying offer... but Jae Crowder also has to look out for Jae Crowder... and if he goes out and signs an offer sheet with a team quick, we'll be forced to either let him walk or match the offer.  How much do you suspect Crowder is getting on the open market?  Cuz if it's 6 mil per year or something, you'll have a tough decision... do you want 23 mil in cap space or do you want to bring back Crowder and have 17 mil?  Once again, this assumes we let Bass walk.  If we're trying to sign a guy like Kevin Love or LaMarcus Aldridge, I think we'll need 20 mil in cap space to offer a max contract.

A lot of this can be alleviated by dumping Wallace, but that will cost us a 1st rounder.

Yes, but the earliest Crowder could sign an offer sheet would be July 9th, and the Celtics would have until July 13th to match it.  The Celtics essentially have until July 12th at the earliest to figure out what to do with Crowder.  It's pretty unlikely that the big name free agents won't have figured out what they want to do by then. So while, you're correct, Crowder can't wait around for the Celtics, practically speaking, I don't expect that to be an issue.  The C's cap dollars should be either allocated, or determined that they will be unallocated, by the time it matters.

Edit: Also, with regards to Bass.  His cap hold is over $10 million.  He's not getting that.  Cap holds are really only useful to keep if you're a) already over the cap, or b) under the cap, but wish to sign a player for more than his cap hold (aka Crowder).  While Bass won't be renounced until his cap space is needed, understand that Bass essentially should be treated like any other non-roster free agent.  The Celtics have a pool of money for free agents, and Bass is just another free agent.

So what you're saying is that we can begin our negotiations with free agents on July 1st... and then as of July 8th, they can sign contracts.  So even if Crowder signs an offer sheet on day 1, he still only counts against our cap for 1 million for the next 3 days until we match?... so even if Crowder improbably signed a max deal, we could utilize our 20 mil in cap space From July 8-12th (while Crowder only counts as 1 mil against our cap hold) and then match his improbable max deal on the 12th??  So essentially his cap hold isn't impacted by the offer sheet he signs?

I need to refresh my memory, but I think if he signs an offer sheet the amount of the offer sheet (at least the first year) counts as a cap hold against us while we decide to match it or not.

so then ... once again... Crowder may cause a problem if we intend on re-signing him.

But hopefully we figure out who we are signing July 1-8 before signing officially begins.