Author Topic: League executive predicts Khris Middleton will receive $15mill/season  (Read 19675 times)

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Offline Forza Juventus

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The crux of this argument is that we overpay for guys then in 2 years that overpay is now a good contract.
It is never good to "overpay" thats by definition bad business, however we dont want to overpay middleton or anyone else, but you can pay based on 2 years from nows cap rather than todays.

Is sacrificing two years of flexibility with an over-market value contract worth it, to get a guy under contract for (hopefully) fair value in the last two years?

That seems like a silly gamble to me.  If the best case scenario is that we overspent for 50% of the contract, and there's no possibility that Middleton will be a bargain, how is that good for us?  That's without even considering the downside of regression, which is certainly a possibility with a guy who has only been a good defender for one season, in a contract year in a defense-first system.
Middleton could regress but he could also continue to improve.  He's only 23 with 3 NBA seasons compared to Butler who is 25 with 4 NBA seasons. 

I'm not sure why it is being broken down as 2 years overpay and 2 years fair value rather than 1 year overpay and 3 years fair value.  Per the article below, Middleton's MAX salary breaks down as follows.   

                                 2015-16       2016-17      2017-18     2018-19
Middleton Salary       $15.8 mil      $16.5 mil     $17.2 mil    $17.9 mil
% of Cap                     23.5%          18.5%         15.9%       17.9%
2014-15 Equivalent   $14.8 mil      $11.6 mil     $10.1 mil    $11.3 mil

http://nba.derekbodner.com/2015/05/04/the-national-tv-deal-and-how-that-impacts-sixers-upcoming-offseasons/

You're right, I should have called it an overpay in all 4 years. ;)

Even the $10.1 million equivalent is more than guys like Jeff Green, Luol Deng, Trevor Ariza, Lance Stephenson, Wes Matthews, Arron Afflalo, etc., make.  The only SFs / swingmen who make more than that $10.1 equivalent are Carmelo, Lebron, Joe Johnson, Durant, Paul George, Hayward, Parsons, Batum, and Gallinari (the last three or four of whom are considered to be overpaid).

Is Middleton worth being paid like the 50th - 60th best paid player in the NBA?  Should he be in the top third of all wing players?  That seems insane to me.

Those players listed make between 7-10 million each. So it is an "overpay" by just a couple million. Middleton is young and good and still can improve. You usually have to "overpay" restricted free agents, otherwise the original team will just match. Do you want good free agents? Usually you have to "overpay". It is a risk worth taking. Middleton could become a very good player and fits our system.
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Offline Who

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How good is Middleton's defense?

I don't put a huge pile of stock in defensive metrics and I barely watched the Bucks play after Jabari Parker got hurt and Larry Sanders left the team (my two favourite players on that team). So consensus seems to be that he is an above average defender (stats + scouts) ... but is he just a good defender, a well above average defender or is he a top defender? A possible All-Defensive team member?

I feel like I have a pretty good gauge on his offense after the Bulls series but I am still unsure about his defense. I haven't seen him play enough.

Online tazzmaniac

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The crux of this argument is that we overpay for guys then in 2 years that overpay is now a good contract.
It is never good to "overpay" thats by definition bad business, however we dont want to overpay middleton or anyone else, but you can pay based on 2 years from nows cap rather than todays.

Is sacrificing two years of flexibility with an over-market value contract worth it, to get a guy under contract for (hopefully) fair value in the last two years?

That seems like a silly gamble to me.  If the best case scenario is that we overspent for 50% of the contract, and there's no possibility that Middleton will be a bargain, how is that good for us?  That's without even considering the downside of regression, which is certainly a possibility with a guy who has only been a good defender for one season, in a contract year in a defense-first system.
Middleton could regress but he could also continue to improve.  He's only 23 with 3 NBA seasons compared to Butler who is 25 with 4 NBA seasons. 

I'm not sure why it is being broken down as 2 years overpay and 2 years fair value rather than 1 year overpay and 3 years fair value.  Per the article below, Middleton's MAX salary breaks down as follows.   

                                 2015-16       2016-17      2017-18     2018-19
Middleton Salary       $15.8 mil      $16.5 mil     $17.2 mil    $17.9 mil
% of Cap                     23.5%          18.5%         15.9%       17.9%
2014-15 Equivalent   $14.8 mil      $11.6 mil     $10.1 mil    $11.3 mil

http://nba.derekbodner.com/2015/05/04/the-national-tv-deal-and-how-that-impacts-sixers-upcoming-offseasons/

You're right, I should have called it an overpay in all 4 years. ;)

Even the $10.1 million equivalent is more than guys like Jeff Green, Luol Deng, Trevor Ariza, Lance Stephenson, Wes Matthews, Arron Afflalo, etc., make.  The only SFs / swingmen who make more than that $10.1 equivalent are Carmelo, Lebron, Joe Johnson, Durant, Paul George, Hayward, Parsons, Batum, and Gallinari (the last three or four of whom are considered to be overpaid).

Is Middleton worth being paid like the 50th - 60th best paid player in the NBA?  Should he be in the top third of all wing players?  That seems insane to me.
Paying Wallace $10mil to ride the bench is insane.  Paying a knucklehead like JaVale McGee $12mil is insane.  There are only 150 starting positions in the NBA and Middleton has established himself as a solid starter.  I'm not an advanced stats guy but it looks like he was top 50 in WS and NetRtg.  Paying Middleton as the 50th - 60th best player may be a bit high but not insanely so. 

Offline Casperian

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You're right, I should have called it an overpay in all 4 years. ;)

Even the $10.1 million equivalent is more than guys like Jeff Green, Luol Deng, Trevor Ariza, Lance Stephenson, Wes Matthews, Arron Afflalo, etc., make.  The only SFs / swingmen who make more than that $10.1 equivalent are Carmelo, Lebron, Joe Johnson, Durant, Paul George, Hayward, Parsons, Batum, and Gallinari (the last three or four of whom are considered to be overpaid).

Is Middleton worth being paid like the 50th - 60th best paid player in the NBA?  Should he be in the top third of all wing players?  That seems insane to me.

Nah, it's perfectly reasonable to give that kind of money to the Bucks' 3rd best wing player.

All we have to do is wave our magic wand called "potential" and the deal doesn't look as insane, anymore. I mean, it's not like Middleton is in a contract year or anything like that, right? I'm sure he'll grow into it....

At least Ben Gordon had a few 20 ppg seasons before people were ready to throw that kind of money at him.
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Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Why do people keep bringing the Detroit Pistons blunders up? It's a cautionary tale sure, but the situation that the Pistons had back then doesn't resemble in any shape or form the situation of the Celtics or the league currently and in the near future.

Other than the possibility of overpaying a player, there's really no parallels to draw between the two circumstances.

The only way you could compare the situation is if you consider a situation in which the Pistons made all those blunders, yet in the following year in 2010 had enough cap space to go after one or two or so players between LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Dirk, Scalabrine, etc.

Also, for all the Gordon cautionary tales, there are also numerous cautionary tales of spending the big bucks on big time free-agents and it also biting you in the ass, as Stoudemire in the aforementioned 2010 free-agency.

All choices have their own set of risks, there's nothing guaranteed here. But that said, the level of flexibility the Celtics have going forward and how the free-agency market is about to be completely altered next year, the consequences of taking risks this particular year doesn't compare to those that teams had in the past.

I have no problem with arguing about the merits of going after Middleton or not, but financial strain really should be the least of our worries and arguing about sacrificing flexibility going forward is honestly a very short-sighted way of looking at this situation.

Personally I'm ambivalent on Middleton, don't care much for him, not my main target, but I do think it's pivotal to add skilled players this year before 2016 free-agency comes around one way or another. And if taking a risk on Middleton is the way we manage it, then so be it. We have other tools (like trades) to try and go for those skill players, but as I already mentioned, having a hard time seeing teams trading talented players in this current market. Very little motivation, and get this, we'll probably will have to OVERPAY to get them.

Offline Casperian

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Why do people keep bringing the Detroit Pistons blunders up? It's a cautionary tale sure, but the situation that the Pistons had back then doesn't resemble in any shape or form the situation of the Celtics or the league currently and in the near future.

Other than the possibility of overpaying a player, there's really no parallels to draw between the two circumstances.

The only way you could compare the situation is if you consider a situation in which the Pistons made all those blunders, yet in the following year in 2010 had enough cap space to go after one or two or so players between LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Dirk, Scalabrine, etc.

Also, for all the Gordon cautionary tales, there are also numerous cautionary tales of spending the big bucks on big time free-agents and it also biting you in the ass, as Stoudemire in the aforementioned 2010 free-agency.

All choices have their own set of risks, there's nothing guaranteed here. But that said, the level of flexibility the Celtics have going forward and how the free-agency market is about to be completely altered next year, the consequences of taking risks this particular year doesn't compare to those that teams had in the past.

All fair points, I brought up Gordon because I already used his contract as an example on page 5, not because I believe Middleton and him will share the same fate.

Besides, it's a cautionary tale which still has relevancy to our current situation, and it's certainly not the only one. Ben Gordon, by any objective measure, was a more proven commodity than Middleton is now, and his 11 million dollar contract did cripple the Pistons quite a bit for many years. The same is true for Charlie V., who also signed for 5 years at 7 million annually. The Pistons also believed they had to spend the money, because they had a good core which only needed a few skilled players to be right back in the thick of things, and because the money was available then.

To say a signing in this ballpark isn't a big risk because of the increasing cap next year is a rather superficial line of argumentation, in my opinion.

Quote
I have no problem with arguing about the merits of going after Middleton or not, but financial strain really should be the least of our worries and arguing about sacrificing flexibility going forward is honestly a very short-sighted way of looking at this situation.

Personally I'm ambivalent on Middleton, don't care much for him, not my main target, but I do think it's pivotal to add skilled players this year before 2016 free-agency comes around one way or another. And if taking a risk on Middleton is the way we manage it, then so be it. We have other tools (like trades) to try and go for those skill players, but as I already mentioned, having a hard time seeing teams trading talented players in this current market. Very little motivation, and get this, we'll probably will have to OVERPAY to get them.

Care to go a bit more into detail why you believe it's short-sighted, and why "it's pivotal to add skilled players before 2016 free agency, one way or another"? I'm afraid that point is not very clear in your post. What do you want us to accomplish with these middle-of-the-road signings? What's the big picture?

I would argue that the flexibility we've accumulated over the past few seasons is our biggest asset, so I think this point is rather important. If we give it up for players who can't lead us to a sustained period of success, what's the point? We already have those and the flexibility right now.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 11:26:49 AM by Casperian »
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Offline SHAQATTACK

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Sometimes I wonder how to gauge players worth ...relative to where they play

Seems a very good player like Middleton will take 20 % less to be on a big market team .  If the TWolfes build a team they wind up having to,pay a ton more for the fringe stars or just good starting types ....of course LBJ type max stars make max anywhere .....

But having to pay Hayward such a huge amount to keep him there .   Seems like small market teams have an up hill battle getting a full competitive team ...or Am I delusional ...LOL

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Why do people keep bringing the Detroit Pistons blunders up? It's a cautionary tale sure, but the situation that the Pistons had back then doesn't resemble in any shape or form the situation of the Celtics or the league currently and in the near future.

Other than the possibility of overpaying a player, there's really no parallels to draw between the two circumstances.

The only way you could compare the situation is if you consider a situation in which the Pistons made all those blunders, yet in the following year in 2010 had enough cap space to go after one or two or so players between LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Dirk, Scalabrine, etc.

Also, for all the Gordon cautionary tales, there are also numerous cautionary tales of spending the big bucks on big time free-agents and it also biting you in the ass, as Stoudemire in the aforementioned 2010 free-agency.

All choices have their own set of risks, there's nothing guaranteed here. But that said, the level of flexibility the Celtics have going forward and how the free-agency market is about to be completely altered next year, the consequences of taking risks this particular year doesn't compare to those that teams had in the past.

All fair points, I brought up Gordon because I already used his contract as an example on page 5, not because I believe Middleton and him will share the same fate.

Besides, it's a cautionary tale which still has relevancy to our current situation, and it's certainly not the only one. Ben Gordon, by any objective measure, was a more proven commodity than Middleton is now, and his 11 million dollar contract did cripple the Pistons quite a bit for many years. The same is true for Charlie V., who also signed for 5 years at 7 million annually. The Pistons also believed they had to spend the money, because they had a good core which only needed a few skilled players to be right back in the thick of things, and because the money was available then.

To say a signing in this ballpark isn't a big risk because of the increasing cap next year is a rather superficial line of argumentation, in my opinion.

Quote
I have no problem with arguing about the merits of going after Middleton or not, but financial strain really should be the least of our worries and arguing about sacrificing flexibility going forward is honestly a very short-sighted way of looking at this situation.

Personally I'm ambivalent on Middleton, don't care much for him, not my main target, but I do think it's pivotal to add skilled players this year before 2016 free-agency comes around one way or another. And if taking a risk on Middleton is the way we manage it, then so be it. We have other tools (like trades) to try and go for those skill players, but as I already mentioned, having a hard time seeing teams trading talented players in this current market. Very little motivation, and get this, we'll probably will have to OVERPAY to get them.

Care to go a bit more into detail why you believe it's short-sighted, and why "it's pivotal to add skilled players before 2016 free agency, one way or another"? I'm afraid that point is not very clear in your post. What do you want us to accomplish with these middle-of-the-road signings? What's the big picture?

I would argue that the flexibility we've accumulated over the past few seasons is our biggest asset, so I think this point is rather important. If we give it up for players who can't lead us to a sustained period of success, what's the point? We already have those and the flexibility right now.

Without expanding too much into it as I'm at work, it's in our best interest to first show that we're a team moving forward, to be a good team.

1. Pretty much every single team out there will have money to throw around. If you want to try and land some of those star players you have to make this team look more attractive, else they should make the easy decision and join teams that are already set with talent/star players in their rosters and now somehow find themselves with money to spend because the salary cap increased substantially.

2a. Players of comparable talent/potential should be more costly in the following years. Heck, even lesser players might be more expensive.
2b. As those players will be most costly, having a player on a better cost controlled contract (and young) will add another asset in potential trades to acquire a talented player if that's the road we're interested in going.
2c. Considering that the incentive to trade players will be by my estimation at an all-time low, having players under contract that you can actually trade, should be of benefit to us.

3. I mention that flexibility is not an issue because even if we make this decision we'll still have flexibility.

There's the salary floor to take into consideration as well. It'll jump to $81 million or so in 2016, next year should be about $60 million. Could be filled with 1 year contracts of course, but I rather take a chance on young potential than do nothing and miss out on just about every opportunity out there.

All that said, in 2016 the only player I'm actually really interested in offering max dollars to, that could be attainable, is Kevin Durant and you're not attracting Kevin Durant by being a team that is taking steps back or stagnant. Absent of that, we have to be very aggressive in the trade market and to be aggressive in the trade market you need to have players in your roster to make it worth while. And just in case, yes we can afford Kevin Durant if we overspend on someone like Middleton.

Others I may have some slight interest in, like Drummond are restricted, so long shot and on $21 million max contracts.

In all, I see a bigger risk on remaining stagnant, staying pat, than taking a risk on a 23 year old player who can shoot, actually performed decently in the playoffs and is not a liability defensively.

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Offline wdleehi

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Middleton is not a player that attracts other players to the Celtics. 



But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season. 

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id rather not pay this dude that money. We may need to sit still and wait for the other teams to blast through all their money.......and then we pounce

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Middleton is not a player that attracts other players to the Celtics. 



But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season. 

You're missing the point. It's not that we have Middleton and suddenly he attracts players. What will attract players, if anything,  is a Celtics team that actually moving forward, improving, getting to the playoffs, etc. Other than that we have nothing else to offer these players that will be hitting the free agency market in 2016, which is what most of you guys seem worried about... we don't have anything else to attract them with.

And that being the case, we might not be a desireable landing spot for them anyways, so what use is having cap space if you won't be able to attract anyone? At least if you get someone like Middleton you can 1) Improve the Celtics team to make it more attractive and 2) Have another trade asset.

And what specifically do you mean by "But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season."? Context matters here.

Offline wdleehi

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Middleton is not a player that attracts other players to the Celtics. 



But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season. 

You're missing the point. It's not that we have Middleton and suddenly he attracts players. What will attract players, if anything,  is a Celtics team that actually moving forward, improving, getting to the playoffs, etc. Other than that we have nothing else to offer these players that will be hitting the free agency market in 2016, which is what most of you guys seem worried about... we don't have anything else to attract them with.

And that being the case, we might not be a desireable landing spot for them anyways, so what use is having cap space if you won't be able to attract anyone? At least if you get someone like Middleton you can 1) Improve the Celtics team to make it more attractive and 2) Have another trade asset.

And what specifically do you mean by "But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season."? Context matters here.


Context

Overpayed players are not good trade assets.

Overpayed players do not move teams forward.  They get teams stuck at the level they are at.



Offline chambers

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Middleton is not a player that attracts other players to the Celtics. 



But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season. 

You're missing the point. It's not that we have Middleton and suddenly he attracts players. What will attract players, if anything,  is a Celtics team that actually moving forward, improving, getting to the playoffs, etc. Other than that we have nothing else to offer these players that will be hitting the free agency market in 2016, which is what most of you guys seem worried about... we don't have anything else to attract them with.

And that being the case, we might not be a desireable landing spot for them anyways, so what use is having cap space if you won't be able to attract anyone? At least if you get someone like Middleton you can 1) Improve the Celtics team to make it more attractive and 2) Have another trade asset.

And what specifically do you mean by "But signing him to 15 million a year contract this off-seasons will certainly make it harder to add such a player if they become available next season."? Context matters here.


Context

Overpayed players are not good trade assets.

Overpayed players do not move teams forward.  They get teams stuck at the level they are at.

The argument is that Middleton is not going to be overpaid. If he stays at the same level he's playing at now without any improvement, it's still good value. If he declines, then it might be an overpay (slightly), but it's not detrimental to us long term.
If we signed him to 4 years, $60 million, it's never going to hamstring us financially- in fact, it's going to make other free agents more likely to want to join Boston because he's a great player.

He's not taking up 20% of the cap for 5 years like Ben Gordon. He'd take up 23% of the cap for the first year, but by the 3rd and 4th years, he'd be taking up 14% and 13% of the cap-which is less % of the cap than we gave Jeff Green in 2012.

The 'potential' is that he excels in our system and when other top 3 contender options are getting paid $25 to $32 million dollars a year, he's getting paid 15 million a year and he's worth $20 million+ or more.

Again, Ben Gordon took up 20% of the cap for almost 5 years. Middleton would take up 23% of the cap in 2015-16, but when the cap increases:
- he takes up 16.8% in 2016-017
- then 13.8% in 2017-18
- then 13.8%(or less) in 2018-19  as he enters his prime at age 27.

Remember this guy is almost 2 years younger than Klay Thompson and he was the best player on a Bucks team that took Chicago to 6 games in the playoffs at age 23.

If the cap wasn't going up, there's no way I'd wanna pay him 15 million a year. But the cap is almost doubling which changes the entire salary landscape.
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Offline Roy H.

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it's going to make other free agents more likely to want to join Boston because he's a great player.

I think this is wrong on both points.  Middleton isn't "great", and he's not going to attract free agents. 


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