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Author Topic: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.  (Read 3063 times)

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IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« on: April 22, 2015, 07:29:57 PM »

Offline coco

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Walking that thin line between go to guy and hero ball.  I thought the ball was moving well, but not so well in the 4th.

I hope we don't regress to hero ball.  I hate seeing the guys standing waiting for IT4 to do something.

....just saying.

It is a fine line after all....
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2015, 07:38:29 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Quote from: coco on April 22, 2015, 07:29:57 PM
Walking that thin line between go to guy and hero ball.  I thought the ball was moving well, but not so well in the 4th.

I hope we don't regress to hero ball.  I hate seeing the guys standing waiting for IT4 to do something.

....just saying.

It is a fine line after all....

Funny you say that: IT4 had 7 assists last night, in 30 minutes of action. No other Celtic had more than 3.

Right now, he's probably the best option the C's have at running the pick and roll.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 07:41:48 PM »

Online Who

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Thomas has always been a hero-ball type player. It was why Sacramento let him leave. It was Phoenix wanted him gone despite trading Dragic. He is selfish gunner.

This combined with the lousy defense is why Thomas can only be a quality player as a change-of-pace backup PG and not as a starting PG.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 07:58:42 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Quote from: Who on April 22, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
Thomas has always been a hero-ball type player. It was why Sacramento let him leave. It was Phoenix wanted him gone despite trading Dragic. He is selfish gunner.

This combined with the lousy defense is why Thomas can only be a quality player as a change-of-pace backup PG and not as a starting PG.

Really? He is easily our best scorer and compares fairly well with other top scoring PGs around the league. If he wasn't 5'9", he would get a lot more respect. He is more than a spark-plug, but I do agree that he is best used off the bench - always best to start out the game with defense.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 08:28:40 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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With the way we shot down the stretch I would like to see him assert himself when the game tightens up in the final minutes, if it close, he can at least get to the rim.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 08:50:48 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Celtics aren't generating a ton of great looks, especially late in the game, with their standard offense.  Letting Thomas do his thing is a better option.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 09:02:22 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Quote from: Who on April 22, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
This combined with the lousy defense is why Thomas can only be a quality player as a change-of-pace backup PG and not as a starting PG.

I think he's being used correctly as a bench scorer who is a candidate for Sixth Man of the Year.  He can potentially be better than Jason Terry coming off the bench in Dallas, but not as good as Manu Ginobili coming off the bench in San Antonio.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 11:48:38 PM »

Offline jeezem

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They should always run their set.  If that is pick and roll, great.  However, everyone on the floor should still be looking to take their shot if they get it.  I'll take a Zeller 15 foot open jumper at the buzzer, or from Bass, or Crowder driving, or a back cut layup from Bradley over an IT fade away Three with 2 taller players in his face.  The way San Antonio does this is great.  They just get great shots, they have a couple guys who can make offense, but for the most part, they just run their set offense and get all quality looks.  A disorganized team loses, unless they have exceptional talent.  Which is what I see from Cleveland - they play way below their potential.  Would love to see some adjustments on our part, and shove that in their faces - and have the media get all over them and their King of the whatever he's King of; cheese?   
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 12:34:35 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Quote from: PhoSita on April 22, 2015, 08:50:48 PM
The Celtics aren't generating a ton of great looks, especially late in the game, with their standard offense.  Letting Thomas do his thing is a better option.

I disagree.  We had much better options, offensively, late in both games as opposed to what we ended up going with down the stretch, imo, which invariably involved Thomas continuing to play completely out of control.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 12:43:32 AM by Beat LA »
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 12:38:35 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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Honestly, the way the Celtics were shooting in the 4th quarter last night, we needed someone with the confidence to step into shots. The series could very well be tied by now if the Celtics didn't turn into a bunch of bricklayers when they had some wide open looks. Inexperience and nerves caught up with some of the players yesterday, and having a heat-check guy like Thomas take some iffy shots is better, and arguably higher-percentage,  than watching hot potato.

On the other hand, that's what Thomas is. If he doesn't take those maybe-good-but-maybe-bad-especially-if-he-misses shots, he becomes a borderline liability, kind of like how Rondo is a liability without the ball in his hands (although Thomas' deficiencies, namely height, are somewhat made up for by his shooting ability.) I see Thomas as a shorter, slightly-better decision-making version of Jason Terry that can drive to the rim more effectively- a borderline starter, but someone you'd prefer to have off the bench as a combustable game-manager. Basically, a step up from Patty Mills but below a Tony Parker. 
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 08:46:28 AM »

Offline littleteapot

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The ball moves well when we are in transition and early offense. When the game slowed down in the 4th, we weren't moving it well. It's been like that all year. It has more to do with our inexperience than Thomas IMO.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 08:51:20 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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It's a Catch-22:

If you don't have a guy who wants every shot down the stretch, then you don't have a go-to guy.

If you have a guy who wants to take the shot every time down the stretch, then he's a selfish, ball hog.

It's a fine line.   

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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 09:01:39 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: Beat LA on April 23, 2015, 12:34:35 AM
Quote from: PhoSita on April 22, 2015, 08:50:48 PM
The Celtics aren't generating a ton of great looks, especially late in the game, with their standard offense.  Letting Thomas do his thing is a better option.

I disagree.  We had much better options, offensively, late in both games as opposed to what we ended up going with down the stretch, imo, which invariably involved Thomas continuing to play completely out of control.

I mean, they have been generating open three point looks and other deep jumpers, but are those really good looks for this team?  We have a floor spreading team that largely can't shoot all that well.  I suspect Blatt is telling his team to let us bomb away from deep, just don't give up the paint.  And it's working.

Thomas is the only guy who,can consistently get inside and finish.  Turner is your next best option, and I'd much prefer to let IT go at it.

Ideally IT would try to make use of screens and picks and occasionally get one of the big men involved, but those guys have been struggling to finish against Clevelands size late in games.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 09:07:54 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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Quote from: Beat LA on April 23, 2015, 12:34:35 AM
Quote from: PhoSita on April 22, 2015, 08:50:48 PM
The Celtics aren't generating a ton of great looks, especially late in the game, with their standard offense.  Letting Thomas do his thing is a better option.

I disagree.  We had much better options, offensively, late in both games as opposed to what we ended up going with down the stretch, imo, which invariably involved Thomas continuing to play completely out of control.

Agreed. He's trying to do way to much, calling it hero ball sounds about right to me.
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Re: IT4 -- Are we back to Hero Ball? I hope not.
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 09:09:50 AM »

Offline littleteapot

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Quote from: PhoSita on April 23, 2015, 09:01:39 AM
I mean, they have been generating open three point looks and other deep jumpers, but are those really good looks for this team?  We have a floor spreading team that largely can't shoot all that well.  I suspect Blatt is telling his team to let us bomb away from deep, just don't give up the paint.  And it's working.

Thomas is the only guy who,can consistently get inside and finish.  Turner is your next best option, and I'd much prefer to let IT go at it.

Ideally IT would try to make use of screens and picks and occasionally get one of the big men involved, but those guys have been struggling to finish against Clevelands size late in games.
Open 3s are good for basically every team. The issue is when we try to run our offense, we either take a really out-of-control midrange jumper or we have to hit on several high-risk passes to get the open shots. Our players are not strong in terms of knowing how to give themselves good passing lanes and make passes in rhythm, and the result is skip passes or passes to people who just plain aren't open.
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