Better to be swept in Round 1 and pick #15... or have 9th best draft odds?

[Csfan1984]

Guys you all keep saying "hindsight is everything", but in my original post I mention that 15+26 is probably not getting us a top 10 pick.  I explicitly say the team is going to get swept. I explicitly say there will be a real cost associated with making the playoffs.  I mentioned guys like elfrid Payton last year and Andre Drummond as the kind of players we could potentially miss out on by picking outside the top 10. I was prepared for this outcome in march. This is why I can't be mad about our failure to trade up.  We had the foresight to know this was the drawback of making a pointless playoff push.

The only tangible benefit was keeping brad happy.  And if you disagree that it's a tangible benefit, you have every right to be frustrated.  The last 11 games of the season may have set us back even further in our quest for relevance. Here's hoping some free agents are dumb enough to think those 11 games made a difference. Here's hoping the trade values of your players took a spike due to those 11 games.  Otherwise... Ouch.

An I told you so post? Look I was pro tank and wanted things shut down hard when IT fell hard. Yet I don't think it's necessary to bump a post and drop an I told you so about this one. Everyone is mourning this decision or in denial and will stay in denial. No need for the revisiting.

[tazzmaniac]

Losing is never an option. We have built a reputation for rebuilding the right way. That may attract a free agent that admires it. Forget what ifs.

Agree... but it's interesting to note that the final 11 games of the season (15 if you include the 4 where the Cavs took us behind a woodshed) almost cost us 5 extra draft picks.  We were reportedly willing to give up 6 draft picks (including our own #16) in order to get the Charlotte pick #9... and it wasn't even enough to get the job done.   Amazing.   

Think about the reverse of that.  We lose 9 of the last 11, end up with Pick #9... and Charlotte offers us 6 draft picks for it.  It's kind of fun to think about, because when I was creating this thread, I was creating it in a bubble where I had no concept of how the value of #9 would compare to #15 and whether or not it really even mattered.    Well, we now have a tangible idea of what the comparative value actually was... and it's startling.  Those final 11 games had a real cost.   

11 games... Less than 3 weeks of NBA basketball... may have dramatically impacted the course of this franchise.   Actually... why am I even saying "may have"?   This is definitive.  Less than 3 weeks of NBA basketball absolutely impacted the course of this franchise.  It's no coincidence that after striking out on Winslow, rumors dropped that we were willing to give 15 mil per year to restricted free agent Tobias Harris.  Here's hoping we make something out of it this summer in free agency... otherwise, this was a total waste.

Fewer games than that.  If we'd just lost 3 games more, we'd have had the 10th pick.  Our situation would look a lot better if we had Winslow.  Philly would probably be quite receptive to a trade offer for one of their bigs if it included Winslow. 

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Congrats to NO going home losers and have AD. So what? What guarantee does NO/AD have that his team will ever do anything more than our team over the years? I have seen many stars come and go in this league and their resume is full of great numbers and that's it! Then you add in all the stars who left their original team only to win with some other team! Pfft give me a break!

[SHAQATTACK]

I think what the tank crowd forgets ......no matter who we get or where we start , unless you have LeBron ......

There are going to be building seasons ......after you go to lottery , it still will be 3-5 seasons before the team is complete and ready to have a 60 win season.

There will be 40 win medium seasons ....BeForE. You get to be a contender for a title .

It's a long building process no matter the strategy . .......you don't go from 16 wins to 60 in one season..

Anothony Davis has made the Pelican a playoff team. Finally......but it maybe another 2-5 years before he is in his first finals game.

Look how long LeBron struggled in Cleveland .


It's easy to get to 35-45 wins ......the hated stuck in the middle ......but no matter I you have lottery pick ...it's going to take many years to reach the 60 win level.

 

[GreenFaith1819]

Stay the course, Danny.

We did the right thing in making the playoffs.

If you "try" to tank..."try" to lose...whatever....you can breed a climate of losing. The players aren't dumb...they'll see that. That losing will spread, becomes contagious. Players start getting attitudes...playing lazy....not hussling.

At least with THIS group we have a culture of winning.

IMO, outside of Oak, KAT and maybe DeAngelo Russell there are NO other immediate game-changers in this draft....NY drafting Kristaps has evidently made Melo LIVID, LOL.

Just stay the course, Danny...many of us, including myself, were upset on draft night, but I was upset on draft night of 2007, too.

And we all know what happened after that draft.

Danny has done it before and he can do it again.

[GreenWarrior]

We've spent a lot of time talking about the cost of the playoffs, but no one seems to have brought up the things that were gained (and yes, there were some things that were gained).  They don't  balance out what was lost if one of the picks we *might* have had turns into a stud, but still:

- We know Jae Crowder is a solid playoff rotation player.  His grit n balls defense and offensive aggressiveness translate to the post season. 
- We know that Tyler Zeller's value translates too.  Again, he's not gonna take over a game anytime, but a solid playoff rotation player.
- Marcus Smart has value, and may have a future.  I know there were times when I was relieved to see him coming back on the floor
- Brad Stevens is a good coach, and the spotlight doesn't faze him.

and most importantly:

- Isaiah Thomas' game does *not* translate to the postseason.  I will be very interested to see what he does this offseason. If he's a winner, he will come back with a stronger game and determined to prove that he will not be stopped again.  This is something I'd rather he learn in a year when the C's had NO shot than in a year when his failures would have derailed a possible playoff run.

I don't think we have to find these things out at the expense of what is actually better for the team.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I think what the tank crowd forgets ......no matter who we get or where we start , unless you have LeBron ......

There are going to be building seasons ......after you go to lottery , it still will be 3-5 seasons before the team is complete and ready to have a 60 win season.

There will be 40 win medium seasons ....BeForE. You get to be a contender for a title .

It's a long building process no matter the strategy . .......you don't go from 16 wins to 60 in one season..

Anothony Davis has made the Pelican a playoff team. Finally......but it maybe another 2-5 years before he is in his first finals game.

Look how long LeBron struggled in Cleveland .


It's easy to get to 35-45 wins ......the hated stuck in the middle ......but no matter I you have lottery pick ...it's going to take many years to reach the 60 win level.

Kings have had Cousins for 5 years, I guess they beat us to the promised land too. Let's talk about how we made it to the playoffs because the east was so bad but let's forget AD made it by the LAST game of the season that the spurs didn't care about winning, talk about how OKC had to have multiple bad injuries and still almost pushed him out!!! They crawl in, get swept, and fire their coach! Congrats!

[SHAQATTACK]

It's hard to make a team bust their butts all season, then 2/3 way though decide ......now we are going to LOoSE on purpose ?   That's demoralizing to the coach and players .

Players and coaches have been programed TO WIN since they were little ....to make it to the big show and finally .....then be told to neal  down and give up?

That's hard for true professionals to swallow. ......ok for D leaguers needing to put food on the table....so they ll cave , do anything to log NBA play n time.

I think you have to decide at the beginning 1/4 or 1/3 of season .....like LA and NY did ....are we going to shut people down, trade or let people go .....shoot for top five lottery record

Or

Are we going to play the thing out and let them go as far as we can



The issue with the Celtics is .......we hired a Great young coach .......NY and LA have poor junk coaches ....that are there for the option of rebuilding or tanking ......who,are in training and will do what ever they are told by the GM .

To get CBS ......you can bet your bottom dollar the PROMiSE to him was .....no direct tanking .....

CBS is just too smart and proud to go along with much tanking .   He is coach and only thinks win.


So......I just don't think part of the CBS contract .....what he was promised included him to be a tanking coach ........he is always trying to win ......it kills him to think the other way.

Frankly ......with CBS not sure you can tank......look at all the horrible messes he was given and he managed pretty good showings to be honest ....not many coaches could have done what he did .....especially a rookie coach.

The poor young tanking coaches in LA , NY , Philly are HIStORY once the team gets going with stars or elites ....they ll be fired and guys like ....CBS will be hired to take over .

Danny may have jumped the gun a little ......I think with the new NBA you build the team with junk coach.....then hire your Doc Rivers coach to take you to the promised land.

So....... Unless you fire CBS and hire a no name interim. Nothing coach like La , NY or Philly  or even a yes man like Spo in Miami .....I just don't see Celtics being lower than a 9 th pick from now on.

Simply ......CBS ain't tanking ......he is professional ......he probably considers that beneath him.

[get_banners]

tanking prob means stevens leaves, so no thanks. yes, i agree it would have been better had we actually been one of the worst teams in the league, but that was not the case. we weren't getting a high pick. yes, we could have gotten winslow, but that was the result of a lot of teams being stupid and catastrophic injuries to teams that should have been ahead of us (Miami and Indy, specifically). Those two do even slightly better, nobody is really complaining, b/c we'd be competitive but out of the postseason, in the lottery, and maybe land winslow. tanking is complicated - you need to commit (and say screw you to your fans) AND you need others to not be so blatant in the practice AND teams to not have catastrophic injuries to their key players.
Also, we are trying to be a real player in FA the next few years. See how well that would go if we went full-Philly. You hear about all the players that want to go there?

[GreenWarrior]

I think what the tank crowd forgets ......no matter who we get or where we start , unless you have LeBron ......

There are going to be building seasons ......after you go to lottery , it still will be 3-5 seasons before the team is complete and ready to have a 60 win season.

There will be 40 win medium seasons ....BeForE. You get to be a contender for a title .

It's a long building process no matter the strategy . .......you don't go from 16 wins to 60 in one season..

Anothony Davis has made the Pelican a playoff team. Finally......but it maybe another 2-5 years before he is in his first finals game.

Look how long LeBron struggled in Cleveland .


It's easy to get to 35-45 wins ......the hated stuck in the middle ......but no matter I you have lottery pick ...it's going to take many years to reach the 60 win level.

that's why after we traded Pierce and KG we shouldn't have stopped there, and we should have tanked right away. instead of waiting 3 yrs. and then realizing we have no choice but to be a lottery team.

everyone likes to bash the pro-tankers but the NBA is so star driven and if you can't(like the C's) just make a bid on a free agent superstar at any given time, the draft and trades are the only way of acquiring these superstars. that's the NBA, not the people that endorse their stupid set up.

[tazzmaniac]

It's hard to make a team bust their butts all season, then 2/3 way though decide ......now we are going to LOoSE on purpose ?   That's demoralizing to the coach and players .

I think you have to decide at the beginning 1/4 or 1/3 of season .....like LA and NY did ....are we going to shut people down, trade or let people go .....shoot for top five lottery record

Or

Are we going to play the thing out and let them go as far as we can



The issue with the Celtics is .......we hired a Great young coach .......NY and LA have poor junk coaches ....that are there for the option of rebuilding or tanking ......who,are in training and will do what ever they are told by the GM .

To get CBS ......you can bet your bottom dollar the PROMiSE to him was .....no direct tanking .....

CBS is just too smart and proud to go along with much tanking .   He is coach and only thinks win.


So......I just don't think part of the CBS contract .....what he was promised included him to be a tanking coach ........he is always trying to win ......it kills him to think the other way.

Frankly ......with CBS not sure you can tank......look at all the horrible messes he was given and he managed pretty good showings to be honest ....not many coaches could have done what he did .....especially a rookie coach.


So....... Unless you fire CBS and hire a no name interim. Nothing coach like La , NY or Philly  or even a yes man like Spo in Miami .....I just don't see Celtics being lower than a 9 th pick from now on.

Simply ......CBS ain't tanking ......he is professional ......he probably considers that beneath him.

We didn't need to tank.  We were just 3 losses out of the 10th pick.  If Ainge had just bought out Prince immediately, we probably would have had those losses.  I'd say playing Prince and then trading him for Jerebko and Datome was meaningless but it probably cost us Winslow.   

[cltc5]

Stay the course, Danny.

We did the right thing in making the playoffs.

If you "try" to tank..."try" to lose...whatever....you can breed a climate of losing. The players aren't dumb...they'll see that. That losing will spread, becomes contagious. Players start getting attitudes...playing lazy....not hussling.

At least with THIS group we have a culture of winning.

IMO, outside of Oak, KAT and maybe DeAngelo Russell there are NO other immediate game-changers in this draft....NY drafting Kristaps has evidently made Melo LIVID, LOL.

Just stay the course, Danny...many of us, including myself, were upset on draft night, but I was upset on draft night of 2007, too.

And we all know what happened after that draft.

Danny has done it before and he can do it again.

You and others using this psychology of a winning culture and losing mentality need to stop.  It's not even a measurable excuse.  It's just something anti tankers use to make themselves feel better about their stance.  Everyday these young men make a choice to compete or not and it has nothing to do with what they did the week before.  If the mindset is right they'll put themselves in a position to win.  Doesn't matter what "culture" they're in.  Hell they were below .500.  What kinda culture does that suggest?

[Rondo9]

Guys you all keep saying "hindsight is everything", but in my original post I mention that 15+26 is probably not getting us a top 10 pick.  I explicitly say the team is going to get swept. I explicitly say there will be a real cost associated with making the playoffs.  I mentioned guys like elfrid Payton last year and Andre Drummond as the kind of players we could potentially miss out on by picking outside the top 10. I was prepared for this outcome in march. This is why I can't be mad about our failure to trade up.  We had the foresight to know this was the drawback of making a pointless playoff push.

The only tangible benefit was keeping brad happy.  And if you disagree that it's a tangible benefit, you have every right to be frustrated.  The last 11 games of the season may have set us back even further in our quest for relevance. Here's hoping some free agents are dumb enough to think those 11 games made a difference. Here's hoping the trade values of your players took a spike due to those 11 games.  Otherwise... Ouch.

An I told you so post? Look I was pro tank and wanted things shut down hard when IT fell hard. Yet I don't think it's necessary to bump a post and drop an I told you so about this one. Everyone is mourning this decision or in denial and will stay in denial. No need for the revisiting.

Denial so you talked to everyone who was happy that they made playoffs?

[LarBrd33]

Guys you all keep saying "hindsight is everything", but in my original post I mention that 15+26 is probably not getting us a top 10 pick.  I explicitly say the team is going to get swept. I explicitly say there will be a real cost associated with making the playoffs.  I mentioned guys like elfrid Payton last year and Andre Drummond as the kind of players we could potentially miss out on by picking outside the top 10. I was prepared for this outcome in march. This is why I can't be mad about our failure to trade up.  We had the foresight to know this was the drawback of making a pointless playoff push.

The only tangible benefit was keeping brad happy.  And if you disagree that it's a tangible benefit, you have every right to be frustrated.  The last 11 games of the season may have set us back even further in our quest for relevance. Here's hoping some free agents are dumb enough to think those 11 games made a difference. Here's hoping the trade values of your players took a spike due to those 11 games.  Otherwise... Ouch.

An I told you so post? Look I was pro tank and wanted things shut down hard when IT fell hard. Yet I don't think it's necessary to bump a post and drop an I told you so about this one. Everyone is mourning this decision or in denial and will stay in denial. No need for the revisiting.

well... semi "i told you so"... This is what I suggested would happen, but I was still on board with the playoffs, because of a naive belief that Brad Stevens is a key part of our future.   I wanted to keep him in Boston.  Puttering out into the lotto, I think Brad would have considered bailing.  We have  him on board still... for now...

[Rondo9]

Stay the course, Danny.

We did the right thing in making the playoffs.

If you "try" to tank..."try" to lose...whatever....you can breed a climate of losing. The players aren't dumb...they'll see that. That losing will spread, becomes contagious. Players start getting attitudes...playing lazy....not hussling.

At least with THIS group we have a culture of winning.

IMO, outside of Oak, KAT and maybe DeAngelo Russell there are NO other immediate game-changers in this draft....NY drafting Kristaps has evidently made Melo LIVID, LOL.

Just stay the course, Danny...many of us, including myself, were upset on draft night, but I was upset on draft night of 2007, too.

And we all know what happened after that draft.

Danny has done it before and he can do it again.

You and others using this psychology of a winning culture and losing mentality need to stop.  It's not even a measurable excuse.  It's just something anti tankers use to make themselves feel better about their stance.  Everyday these young men make a choice to compete or not and it has nothing to do with what they did the week before.  If the mindset is right they'll put themselves in a position to win.  Doesn't matter what "culture" they're in.  Hell they were below .500.  What kinda culture does that suggest?
[/quote


Why should they stop? They just has much of a right to express their desire for a winning culture as do you rooting for a tank