Author Topic: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?  (Read 6828 times)

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No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« on: March 21, 2015, 12:39:02 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Let me first say that I'm on board with the playoff push.  I'm not sure if we'll get there.   Prior to the losses to OKC and the Spurs, I took a wild guess that we'd go 6-11 over the final 17 games, but I'm rooting for us to finish a lot better than that.  I have faith in Ainge regardless of what happens.  Granted, I don't buy into the idea that merely making the playoffs is some kind of transcendent developmental experience.  I don't really think it matters much, honestly.  A classic example is 2012 Philly.  They were an extremely young team that barely made the playoffs with 35 wins.  They managed to knock off #1 seed Chicago (sans D-Rose) in Round 1 and push the Big-3 Celtics to 7 games in Round 2.  You'd think young Philly would have carried that grand performance into the next season, right?  Of course not.  They ended up winning 34 games and missing the playoffs.  Talent is everything in this league and they didn't have it.  Talent is how you can go from a bottom-feeder to contender overnight with a single acquisition (saw it with Boston in 2008 and have seen it thrice with Lord James in Cle/Mia/Cle).  The whole "playoff reps" thing is only relevant when you've already acquired that superstar talent.  Still, the playoffs could theoretically have some benefit.  The argument can be made that making the playoffs would help in our pursuit of free agents this offseason.  I can buy that premise.  Let's explore it.

Despite the two losses, we're currently tied for the #8 seed right now.   If the playoffs started today, it looks like we'd be facing off against Atlanta in Round 1.   That automatically makes our best pick this year #16.   That puts a bit of a damper on our trade market hopes.   Teams aren't too anxious to trade star talent for mid-to-late 1sts.  You'd have to sell them on the Brooklyn picks, because a mid 1st isn't inherently valuable.  We saw last offseason how challenging it was to even put together a competitive trade package around the #6 pick.  At the end of the day, having a Top 5 pick is going to trump any trade package involving multiple mid 1sts.   

I imagine making the playoffs this season would have a large part to do with the contributions of the guys currently on the squad, right?  If you're the type of person who subscribes to the idea that playoff experience carries over into the next season, I imagine you'd want to do everything possible to retain the current team and add to it, right?  Right now our playoff push is partially fueled by a few guys who are free agents this offseason.  I'm curious what it will take to retain those guys.

Open question:  What are you paying Brandon Bass, Jonas Jerebko, Gigi Datome and Jae Crowder this Summer?

It looks like we have roughly 26 mil in cap space at the moment.  We're going to need to pay #16 and #25 so figure that's another 3 mil gone.    Even if you got Bass, Crowder and Jonas each for 5 mil (and let Gigi walk), you're suddenly down to merely 8 mil in cap space.   It doesn't seem possible to retain all those guys and still have money for a max contract.   

I'm starting to wonder if we'll be better off forgetting about the cap space and trying to utilize our trade exceptions instead.   Moving a trade exception along with mid picks might net something, but probably not the much-needed superstar talent. 

It's possible that we'll have an offseason without any lotto picks or max room cap space.   

Of course, moving Gerald Wallace's contract could allow us the opportunity to retain everyone AND have room for a max deal.  We may need to sacrifice a draft pick in order to dump that contract off on a team with cap space to eat it.  Or maybe you just use the stretch provision on the Wallace contract.  Especially with the cap about to jump, it probably isn't going to matter much if we have a few million in dead dollars eating into our cap over the next 3-5 years.  With the trade market being our best option for landing a star, I'd probably try to hang onto the Wallace contract until at least the trade deadline, because any major package involving draft picks and prospects (Sully/Oly/Smart) is going to need a filler contract.  The 10 mil expiring Wallace deal is a perfect "filler contract".

So I guess in summary, making the playoffs could help in our pursuit of free agents... but unless Ainge makes some additional moves, we aren't going to be able to retain the playoff team and have significant cap space to pursue free agents with.  The trade market is likely our most viable option for acquiring talent... in which case, the only tangible benefit of making the playoffs this season would be a mildly uptick in the trade value of our assets.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 12:50:27 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 01:02:06 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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There is a possibility for a draft-day trade. We traded our 16th and the 2nd rounder to grab KO at 13th pick. I don't see why Danny won't trade down again if he found a talent that he likes.

Showcasing our vets in the playoffs might entice Playoff contenders. They might buy our players with picks, promising young players, TPEs and expiring contracts.

Among our players, Wallace is the only bad contract we had and I rather let him expire than take another albatross contract. Many of our vets are soon to be available FA. We can sign them for cheap, hope for a trade or just simply let them walk away. DA managed to squeeze something when Hump signed with the Wizards.

We can wait for a disgruntled superstar asking for a trade if free agency fails.

I don't get your obsession with lottery picks. We haven't won any lottery since the Chauncey Billups days and we won't win it anytime soon.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2015, 01:22:23 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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There is a possibility for a draft-day trade. We traded our 16th and the 2nd rounder to grab KO at 13th pick. I don't see why Danny won't trade down again if he found a talent that he likes.

Showcasing our vets in the playoffs might entice Playoff contenders. They might buy our players with picks, promising young players, TPEs and expiring contracts.

Among our players, Wallace is the only bad contract we had and I rather let him expire than take another albatross contract. Many of our vets are soon to be available FA. We can sign them for cheap, hope for a trade or just simply let them walk away. DA managed to squeeze something when Hump signed with the Wizards.

We can wait for a disgruntled superstar asking for a trade if free agency fails.

I don't get your obsession with lottery picks. We haven't won any lottery since the Chauncey Billups days and we won't win it anytime soon.
I really only pushed for us to tank twice during my time as a Celtic fan.

2007 -   Really wanted Durant or Oden.   Can't really say the tanking was a bad move... without that #5 pick, we don't get Ray Allen and without Ray Allen we don't get Kevin Garnett.  Tanking directly lead to our championship the next year.

2014 -   Really wanted a Top 8 pick.  Lots of talent in that draft.   I didn't want to miss out on a draft with there was a better-than-average shot of landing a substantial talent by tanking.   We've seen enough from Wiggins to determine that kid is going to be a superstar.  I still think Jabari Parker and Joel Embiid are going to be superstars.  I think Julius Randle still has potential to be a big time player.  Too soon to judge Exum.  We ended up with Smart.  Plenty of fans of Smart on this forum.  He already is displaying elite defensive ability.  I'm skeptical of his offensive potential, but we'll see what happens.  I'm MUCH rather have Marcus Smart than not have him.  He's certainly our most valuable trade asset.   I don't regret pushing for the tank.

This year, I don't really care.  As we learn more about the draft and it evolves, there might be a clear top order that we'll be missing out on, but whatever.   No regrets tanking in 2007 and 2014, but I prefer rooting for my team to win.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2015, 02:23:44 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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The possibility of trading down to top 10 are not zero. There might be teams out there that might like our players better than they can get in the draft or prefer quantity over quality picks. As some experts,  this draft will be thin in superstar talent so our chance of trading down could get bigger.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2015, 02:27:39 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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There is a possibility for a draft-day trade. We traded our 16th and the 2nd rounder to grab KO at 13th pick. I don't see why Danny won't trade down again if he found a talent that he likes.

Showcasing our vets in the playoffs might entice Playoff contenders. They might buy our players with picks, promising young players, TPEs and expiring contracts.

Among our players, Wallace is the only bad contract we had and I rather let him expire than take another albatross contract. Many of our vets are soon to be available FA. We can sign them for cheap, hope for a trade or just simply let them walk away. DA managed to squeeze something when Hump signed with the Wizards.

We can wait for a disgruntled superstar asking for a trade if free agency fails.

I don't get your obsession with lottery picks. We haven't won any lottery since the Chauncey Billups days and we won't win it anytime soon.
The KO trade was for the #16 and two second round picks.  The obsession with lottery picks is easy.  Look at the top players in the league.  How many of them weren't drafted in the top 10? 

Ainge already tried to get one disgruntled superstar (Love) and didn't come close to making it happen.  If another disgruntled superstar (e.g. Cousins) comes on the market, there are a number of teams that could outbid us.  You'd need a star to demand a trade to the Celtics and I don't see that happening.  I wouldn't hold my breath on star free agents wanting to come here either.  The draft is our best option to get a star and to do that you want top 10 or preferably top 5 picks. 

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2015, 02:30:36 AM »

Offline chambers

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Again I'll say that I'm not really sure what we are doing right now with this team.
It would appear we are going to wait for a free agent signing or disgruntled star- with the free agent acquisition the much more likely move for our future than the disgruntled star. Who knows when that will happen.

Piece one may be DeAndre Jordan this offseason if the Clippers question whether to pay him.

The fact remains though that without Brad Stevens as a genius coach, we really don't have much other than Smart and Sullinger and some Brooklyn picks.

And while it's fun to watch this team fight tooth and nail- no one will remember this squad in 3 years time, and this season hasn't done much to help the future of our organization.
We realized that Rondo was no longer in our long term plans and our dreams were crushed when Love made his way to Cleveland.

Marcus Smart's shooting developments have been amazing, but his lack of aggression and dribble penetration have been puzzling on the offensive end- making it a mostly sweet yet slightly bitter experience overall once factoring in his defensive excellence.
The value of a few of our throw ins has been great- again for winning some close games and beating up on second units- but I'm not sure what these wins actually equate to in the long run.

Of all the key pieces that we actually know will be here next year, it seems that only Smart, Zeller, Thomas and perhaps Bradley have been better than expected.

Kelly Olynyk and Sullinger have both been pretty disappointing. Kelly from a basketball standpoint (serious questions about his toughness and lack of defensive awareness) and Sullinger from an effort/attitude standpoint. I really have my doubts that Kelly Olynyk is more than a 6th/7th man in this league- perhaps a poor man's Ryan Anderson.

GiGi, Crowder, Datome, Bass are all free agents.

I'm just not convinced that going for the playoffs and adding all these guys and giving them minutes was the smartest move unless we plan on keeping them all around.

Do we really care if GiGi and Jerebko score 7 points a game if they aren't here next season?
Bass is playing great, but he is literally worth nothing to us now other than a great locker room presence and he'll likely be gone to a playoff team next season.

We don't have any stars, and we don't have any solid lottery picks. We are basically praying that the Nets bink us a top 10 pick and waiting for free agents.

I'm just not 100% convinced in this plan yet, but I hope I'm wrong.

As I said in a post to eja recently- it's doubtful the East stays this bad for much longer. Miami will be back next year with Bosh and Dragic as Whiteside improves, New York has cap room, a top 3 pick and a top 20 player in his prime who's had a season of rest.
Cleveland has Lebron, Kyrie and Love and the Bucks have Giannis, Jabari Parker and a top 4 record in the East. Then there's the Bulls and Wizards. Then there's us...
Right now the 76ers have far superior assets and potential talent than us. They'll also have cap room soon.
At least we ain't the Nets.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 02:39:19 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2015, 02:47:16 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Let me first say that I'm on board with the playoff push.  I'm not sure if we'll get there.   Prior to the losses to OKC and the Spurs, I took a wild guess that we'd go 6-11 over the final 17 games, but I'm rooting for us to finish a lot better than that.  I have faith in Ainge regardless of what happens.  Granted, I don't buy into the idea that merely making the playoffs is some kind of transcendent developmental experience.  I don't really think it matters much, honestly.  A classic example is 2012 Philly.  They were an extremely young team that barely made the playoffs with 35 wins.  They managed to knock off #1 seed Chicago (sans D-Rose) in Round 1 and push the Big-3 Celtics to 7 games in Round 2.  You'd think young Philly would have carried that grand performance into the next season, right?  Of course not.  They ended up winning 34 games and missing the playoffs.  Talent is everything in this league and they didn't have it.  Talent is how you can go from a bottom-feeder to contender overnight with a single acquisition (saw it with Boston in 2008 and have seen it thrice with Lord James in Cle/Mia/Cle).  The whole "playoff reps" thing is only relevant when you've already acquired that superstar talent.  Still, the playoffs could theoretically have some benefit.  The argument can be made that making the playoffs would help in our pursuit of free agents this offseason.  I can buy that premise.  Let's explore it.

Despite the two losses, we're currently tied for the #8 seed right now.   If the playoffs started today, it looks like we'd be facing off against Atlanta in Round 1.   That automatically makes our best pick this year #16.   That puts a bit of a damper on our trade market hopes.   Teams aren't too anxious to trade star talent for mid-to-late 1sts.  You'd have to sell them on the Brooklyn picks, because a mid 1st isn't inherently valuable.  We saw last offseason how challenging it was to even put together a competitive trade package around the #6 pick.  At the end of the day, having a Top 5 pick is going to trump any trade package involving multiple mid 1sts.   

I imagine making the playoffs this season would have a large part to do with the contributions of the guys currently on the squad, right?  If you're the type of person who subscribes to the idea that playoff experience carries over into the next season, I imagine you'd want to do everything possible to retain the current team and add to it, right?  Right now our playoff push is partially fueled by a few guys who are free agents this offseason.  I'm curious what it will take to retain those guys.

Open question:  What are you paying Brandon Bass, Jonas Jerebko, Gigi Datome and Jae Crowder this Summer?

It looks like we have roughly 26 mil in cap space at the moment.  We're going to need to pay #16 and #25 so figure that's another 3 mil gone.    Even if you got Bass, Crowder and Jonas each for 5 mil (and let Gigi walk), you're suddenly down to merely 8 mil in cap space.   It doesn't seem possible to retain all those guys and still have money for a max contract.   

I'm starting to wonder if we'll be better off forgetting about the cap space and trying to utilize our trade exceptions instead.   Moving a trade exception along with mid picks might net something, but probably not the much-needed superstar talent. 

It's possible that we'll have an offseason without any lotto picks or max room cap space.   

Of course, moving Gerald Wallace's contract could allow us the opportunity to retain everyone AND have room for a max deal.  We may need to sacrifice a draft pick in order to dump that contract off on a team with cap space to eat it.  Or maybe you just use the stretch provision on the Wallace contract.  Especially with the cap about to jump, it probably isn't going to matter much if we have a few million in dead dollars eating into our cap over the next 3-5 years.  With the trade market being our best option for landing a star, I'd probably try to hang onto the Wallace contract until at least the trade deadline, because any major package involving draft picks and prospects (Sully/Oly/Smart) is going to need a filler contract.  The 10 mil expiring Wallace deal is a perfect "filler contract".

So I guess in summary, making the playoffs could help in our pursuit of free agents... but unless Ainge makes some additional moves, we aren't going to be able to retain the playoff team and have significant cap space to pursue free agents with.  The trade market is likely our most viable option for acquiring talent... in which case, the only tangible benefit of making the playoffs this season would be a mildly uptick in the trade value of our assets.
Obviously you try to attract a top tier free agent but realistically I think we need to be looking at the 2nd/3rd tier free agents like Middleton.  I don't think trading for a star is very realistic.  The chance of a star becoming available is small and if someone did (e.g. Cousins) there are a number of other teams that could outbid us.  Furthermore how often do star trades actually work out well?  I think our best bet to get a star is through the draft.  Draft for star potential at the risk of busting.  Hopefully the Brooklyn picks will turn out good.     

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2015, 03:27:39 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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No Lotto picks + No Cap space = reality, lol. ;D Ugh.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2015, 03:41:19 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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There is a possibility for a draft-day trade. We traded our 16th and the 2nd rounder to grab KO at 13th pick. I don't see why Danny won't trade down again if he found a talent that he likes.

Showcasing our vets in the playoffs might entice Playoff contenders. They might buy our players with picks, promising young players, TPEs and expiring contracts.

Among our players, Wallace is the only bad contract we had and I rather let him expire than take another albatross contract. Many of our vets are soon to be available FA. We can sign them for cheap, hope for a trade or just simply let them walk away. DA managed to squeeze something when Hump signed with the Wizards.

We can wait for a disgruntled superstar asking for a trade if free agency fails.

I don't get your obsession with lottery picks. We haven't won any lottery since the Chauncey Billups days and we won't win it anytime soon.
The KO trade was for the #16 and two second round picks.  The obsession with lottery picks is easy.  Look at the top players in the league.  How many of them weren't draft ed in the top 10? 


And how many of those didn't pan out? Sure, drafting outside the lottery have higher chance of getting a superstar, but the team also have higher chance of not getting out of mediocrity. Look at Kyrie Irving without Lebron or the Kevin Love T-Wolves. They can't even sniff the playoffs despite having "Star Players". How many can't it takes before they can do that..... oh wait. They are teamed together with LeBron so it doesn't matter now. Not all players prefer a contending team or a location with nice weather. Mind you, Dwight Howard chose Houston because it's his hometown. And long ago, a player named Dana Barros signed with the C's despite having an All-Star appearance the previous season because he is a Boston native. Nerlens Noel could knock the door anytime soon.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2015, 03:50:36 AM »

Offline Chris22

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Will Celtic fans ever stop whining?

We have cap space and 5 first round picks in the next two drafts, plus two more Brooklyn picks down the road.

And we are 7-3 in our last 10 games with a great coach.

And we just picked up a great point guard.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 12:19:40 PM by Chris22 »

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2015, 07:58:00 AM »

Offline flybono

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I wouldn't re-sign any of those players. Save the coin and make a push for  MONROE and MILLSAP.   

There is your C and Power forward!

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2015, 08:42:01 AM »

Offline JBcat

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I wouldn't re-sign any of those players. Save the coin and make a push for  MONROE and MILLSAP.   

There is your C and Power forward!

We might have a decent chance at Monroe but he isn't exactly a rim protector.  I see no reason for Millsap to leave Atlanta.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2015, 09:05:13 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Relax, I doubt we resign all those guys only the cheap ones.   Ainge, has the cold heart neccessary will let those guys walks.   He will not be sentimental enough to think he can build around those guys even though they have shown some pluck and won the hearts of the fans.   He does not care about that he cares about the big picture, I do not see us playing 20 million to lock those guys in unless the cap is changing and if it is they will want more.

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2015, 09:14:32 AM »

Offline jonaslopes

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Let me first say that I'm on board with the playoff push.

Liar.
It's nice seeing him get exposed as overrated after having argued with fellow fans for years that he was overrated.. but I don't hate him. I'm looking forward to seeing him [...] bounce around to a couple more teams... eventually come back to Boston[...] and helps us as a role player until he runs himself out of the league.
LarBrd33 on Rondo

Re: No Lotto picks + No Cap space?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2015, 09:46:55 AM »

Offline greg683x

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I wouldn't re-sign any of those players. Save the coin and make a push for  MONROE and MILLSAP.   

There is your C and Power forward!

You wouldnt resign crowder at a reasonable price??  I see him leaving anyway to play on a contender but thats nuts to just dismiss resigning him
Greg