Is Doc Rivers overrated as a coach? Big 3 or Doc River's magic

[Jonny CC]

I have a feeling people are going to be emotional about this one but...

Doc actually wasn't a very good coach at all. Similar to Mark Jackson (who the GS players almost universally LOVED) he was backed by the players but doesn't actually help the team win.

I blame the fact we only got 1 title 100% on injuries, but it's still a little suspicious to see that a team with as much talent as those Big 3 Celtics only manage to get top-9 in offensive efficiency once (which was the year they got there).

Let's keep in mind that Doc Rivers also managed to win one more game after going to Clippers... following on the heels of Vinny-motherfreaking-Del Negro. If you can't significantly out-coach Del Negro WITH internal improvement from Blake Griffin and another year for your key players to jell... I'm sorry, you're not a great coach.

The only two things Doc is great at are 1) managing player egos 2) drawing plays out of timeouts.

Better than some (like the abysmal Vinny Del Negro) but not a difference maker (like Pop or Rick Carlisle).

Doc the GM seems to be hamstringing Doc the coach a bit. And Rivers is more than just his tenure with the C's -- he's done a lot more with a marginal squad than, say, Brad Stevens has --  but you're right: he does seem to coach to the way he thinks is best to play basketball, regardless of the roster he's presented with.

No he hasn't, at least not in the way Stevens has had. Doc always had either McGrady or Pierce on his teams. The teams were pretty mediocre but having a wing that can get you 25 in their sleep makes any coach's job easier...at least relative to what Stevens has had in his first two years as coach. I'm not even going to get into how he completely mishandled Al Jefferson's touches, and part of the reason Jefferson exploded the way he did was because Pierce force-fed him going against the gameplan. The fact that he couldn't even pull one way out of that 18 game losing stread was really depressing. Sure the team sucked, but they weren't 18 game losing streak bad. Not with Jefferson playing the way he was.

I don't think the Celtics would have more than 18-20 wins with Doc as coach of this team. He wouldn't be able to handle all the roster turnover and lack of general offensive talent (until Thomas obviously).

This would be a very nice post, if it were true.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2000.html
You'll notice this team reached .500. You'll notice that it features neither Tracy McGrady nor Paul Pierce. You'll notice that, actually, it's probably a worse team than the collection of talent that Stevens has had to work with.

Wow, you are right. I completely forgot about that team! One year before McGrady arrived, I believe. I don't really agree that the collection of talent is worse on that team, but you definitely proved me wrong about him always having a 25 PPG talent. To cover me a bit, though, that season was Ben Wallace's coming out party. The Magic had a real tough defense because of him anchoring it. It's easier to grind out wins in the regular season with a tough defense so I'd say Doc had a much more balanced roster to work with that season than what Stevens has had in two seasons (until very recently). I just forgot Doc coached that roster.  Armstrong played out of his mind that season so I'll give Doc some credit for that one.

I know Maggette was a rookie that year, but he had multiple seasons at over 20 a game included two above 22 a game.  Mercer was also on that team until he was traded midway through the year.  Mercer was a pretty good scorer in his own right.

I have never been a fan of Doc but that was a pretty Fugly team he had in Orlando.  Wow. 

[SHAQATTACK]

I do think some coaches are able to get more out of their players or rather vise versa ,  players will play harder for one coach than another.

I will say the head coach of Atlanta has done an amazing job .   That club act and plays like a professional team win or lose.

Hawks may not beat LeBron ,  for lack of talent .....but you can be sure it won't be for lack of trying.

[thirstyboots18]

So Doc is either bad because he never developed talent on veteran teams, or he's bad because he won due to players having breakout years and became superstars while he was coaching them?

Pierce was a superstar before Doc. McGrady was going to be a superstar no matter what. Only "superstar" that can be credited to Doc may be Wallace, but the argument could be made that he broke out in Washington a season before he went to Orlando. Some people might not even want to say he fully broke out until he went to Detroit under Carlisle. So I guess there is Rondo too, which I'll give Doc. Doc managed his personality well enough even if I don't think his shot was properly developed. That's more on Rondo than Doc probably, though, we've seen Stevens force a couple of his players to shoot 3s to develop their game regardless of past experience with the shot (Sully and Olynyk).

Never said Doc was bad anyway. Only that I agree that he is somewhat overrated.

Pierce was a superstar?  Pierce was the best player on a bad team.

[LooseCannon]

Decent coach when not hampered by an idiot GM.  Has flaws that can be checked somewhat by a good GM constructing the roster to limit his choices.  Probably won't screw things up if you give him a good roster.

[DarkAzcura]

So Doc is either bad because he never developed talent on veteran teams, or he's bad because he won due to players having breakout years and became superstars while he was coaching them?

Pierce was a superstar before Doc. McGrady was going to be a superstar no matter what. Only "superstar" that can be credited to Doc may be Wallace, but the argument could be made that he broke out in Washington a season before he went to Orlando. Some people might not even want to say he fully broke out until he went to Detroit under Carlisle. So I guess there is Rondo too, which I'll give Doc. Doc managed his personality well enough even if I don't think his shot was properly developed. That's more on Rondo than Doc probably, though, we've seen Stevens force a couple of his players to shoot 3s to develop their game regardless of past experience with the shot (Sully and Olynyk).

Never said Doc was bad anyway. Only that I agree that he is somewhat overrated.

Pierce was a superstar?  Pierce was the best player on a bad team.

Best players on bad teams can still be superstars. Pierce was a superstar. Superstar to me = top 10-15 player.

It's amazing how underrated Pierce can be, on a Celtics forum no less. Kobe, McGrady, Lebron, etc never outplayed Pierce when he was in his prime in head to head matchups. Pierce almost always got the best of the "flashy" superstars (Vince and McGrady) and played them toe to toe. It's not his fault management in Boston sucked until Ainge turned the whole thing around because let me tell you, even Kobe Bryant wasn't winning crap here with the rosters Pierce had to play with. One of the bigger (roster) tragedies in Boston sports history is not getting to see Pierce play with a good, balanced team for most of his prime.

[mgent]

Doc is one of the best coaches around, nothing other than ignorance could lead you to believe otherwise.  He actually has the balls to keep Deandre Jordan in there at the end of games.  A weak coach would just bench him because it's the easier call.

And what was the result of Doc's move?  Jordan's confidence is at an all-time high.

[Vox_Populi]

Doc is one of the best coaches around, nothing other than ignorance could lead you to believe otherwise.  He actually has the balls to keep Deandre Jordan in there at the end of games.  A weak coach would just bench him because it's the easier call.

And what was the result of Doc's move?  Jordan's confidence is at an all-time high.

I agree in general. Clippers have a winning record without Griffin. Last year they had one without Paul. They still have the best offense in the league for the second straight year with him coaching.

I've noticed recently people have been harsh on him and Thibs.

[Kane3387]

Doc is a top 3-5 coach imo.

Leadership
Inspirational
Can draw up great plays
Players love him

Give me a coach with these qualities any days and doc has all of them. Only criticism is his rotations at times.

[Scottie]

Only place where I have heard anything but reverence for Doc as a coach has been on these forums. As ever, there is a preoccupation with the things people don't do as opposed to the things they do.

[cltc5]

Doc is a fraud.  As is spoelstra and Phil Jackson.  And that's no joke.   You can be a great coach with superstars on your team. Not that hard.  Good coaches win with a team.  Bad coaches need superstars to win.

[cltc5]

I have a feeling people are going to be emotional about this one but...

Doc actually wasn't a very good coach at all. Similar to Mark Jackson (who the GS players almost universally LOVED) he was backed by the players but doesn't actually help the team win.

I blame the fact we only got 1 title 100% on injuries, but it's still a little suspicious to see that a team with as much talent as those Big 3 Celtics only manage to get top-9 in offensive efficiency once (which was the year they got there).

Let's keep in mind that Doc Rivers also managed to win one more game after going to Clippers... following on the heels of Vinny-motherfreaking-Del Negro. If you can't significantly out-coach Del Negro WITH internal improvement from Blake Griffin and another year for your key players to jell... I'm sorry, you're not a great coach.

The only two things Doc is great at are 1) managing player egos 2) drawing plays out of timeouts.

Better than some (like the abysmal Vinny Del Negro) but not a difference maker (like Pop or Rick Carlisle).

doc may have had an excuse for 2009 but not 2010. we had a double digit lead in the 4th. we blew it in LA in game 7. Terrible coaching.

This

[guava_wrench]

I have a feeling people are going to be emotional about this one but...

Doc actually wasn't a very good coach at all. Similar to Mark Jackson (who the GS players almost universally LOVED) he was backed by the players but doesn't actually help the team win.

I blame the fact we only got 1 title 100% on injuries, but it's still a little suspicious to see that a team with as much talent as those Big 3 Celtics only manage to get top-9 in offensive efficiency once (which was the year they got there).

Let's keep in mind that Doc Rivers also managed to win one more game after going to Clippers... following on the heels of Vinny-motherfreaking-Del Negro. If you can't significantly out-coach Del Negro WITH internal improvement from Blake Griffin and another year for your key players to jell... I'm sorry, you're not a great coach.

The only two things Doc is great at are 1) managing player egos 2) drawing plays out of timeouts.

Better than some (like the abysmal Vinny Del Negro) but not a difference maker (like Pop or Rick Carlisle).

doc may have had an excuse for 2009 but not 2010. we had a double digit lead in the 4th. we blew it in LA in game 7. Terrible coaching.

This

        is wrong.

We lost the lead because Wallace's back gave out. It wasn't coaching. It was not having a center to defend Gasol and Bynum.

We had the lead because Wallace was great in the first half. He ran out of gas.

It makes no sense to generalize that losing a lead is bad coaching. Someone could just as arbitrarily say that it was due to Doc's coaching that we were able to get that lead until the better team took over. Not at all convincing.

[Scottie]

Doc is a fraud.  As is spoelstra and Phil Jackson.  And that's no joke.   You can be a great coach with superstars on your team. Not that hard.  Good coaches win with a team.  Bad coaches need superstars to win.

That being the case, you forgot Red.

[Ogaju]

Glad he is the Clipper's problem now.

[slamtheking]

Is Doc Rivers overrated as a coach? Big 3 or Doc River's magic

you certainly do like to make new threads (even dups) for topics that have been beaten to death here but to your question.  IMHO, he was grossly overrated by many here.   glad he's gone.   Stevens is showing he's better at developing young players than Doc and he's doing fairly decent at end of game situations now that this team is actually in games to the end.