Do We Need a Rim Protector?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I consistently see ideas on this forum for a rim protector, but I think that basic assumption is not keeping up with the changes in the NBA. You have to have some level or rim protection in the NBA, and some championship level teams build their defense around that concept (Thunder, Warriors, Pacers), but I do not think you need it to win in the NBA. For that point, I want to point to the Hawks as exhibit A and the Spurs as exhibit B.

The Hawks have one of the best records in the NBA this year, but their starting frontcourt's defensive FG% at the rim is not good: Milsap 56%, Carroll 57%, and Horford 51%. Each of those is the bottom half of the NBA. And yet, the Hawks defensive efficiency is ranked sixth in the NBA.

Exhibit B is the Spurs. The Spurs are the 18th in opposing FG% at the rim (the Celtics are 15th). But they rank 3rd in the NBA in defensive efficiency.

My point is not that rim protectors are necessarily bad, but that if you scheme correctly, you do not need one, and in fact, it would be  a weakness to have one. Our tendency is to want balance and want our weaknesses to be strengthened.

That brings me to my backwards basketball philosophy. If you cannot get superstars who are great at multiple things, if you design it right, the next best thing is to push into your strengths almost to the exclusion of your weaknesses. In other words, if you get good enough at your strengths, your weaknesses can be minimalized. I think that is what happened with both the Spurs and the Hawks (also the Heat over the past few years). By pushing into offensive effeciency and great three point shooting, other teams were forced to try to keep up, or got caught in a three point shooting contest.

If the Hawks and the Heat had gotten a starting caliber rim protector and played him with the starters, it would have ruined their elite strength of offensive efficiency and three point shooting.

For this reason, I don't think the Celtics necessarily need a rim protector. Sully (53%), Olynyk (51%), and Zeller (49%) are all better at the rim than the Hawks bigs, but they also have offensive versatility and efficiency. I really think that the Celtics have the potential to make a huge jump next year with some minor tweaks. If Sully can get more consistent from three, Olynyk can draw a few more fouls and stop fouling so much, and Zeller can continue to develop his jumpshot, this team has the ability to be really good on offense. Those bigs can open the court up for Smart to get back to who he is as a driver.

However, what if we get a player like Biyombo? Or a raw rim protector like Noel? Or Hibbert? Or Cauley-Stein? Or Larry Sanders? Anything that these players would give us defensively would also take away offensively. In the end, I don't think we would be better off. We may have fewer weaknesses, but our strengths would not be as strong.

I think Stevens gets this. In fact, I think this has been his plan all along. Better offensive efficiency, in the right scheme, can mean better defensive efficiency. Does this mean they are a championship team? No. Does this mean they don't need other pieces? No. But it does mean that they are forming an extremely efficient, extremely team-oriented, extremely fun-to-watch style of basketball.

[TheTruthFot18]

Last few teams to win it all had above average rim protectors. More essential than a pg to win a championship. Even if you don't have a Howard or Davis, solid team defense (Celtics '08, Pistons '04) and or superstar wings with solid bigs (Heat '12-13) gets it done.

[Joe Green]

Kudos on the insightful post. I think you have some points but:

A. A rim protector is like an garbage man who cleans up the mistakes perimeter players make. Since the Celtics featured Rondo and Bradley who both liked to gamble for steals, we were often exposed to penetration - which is where opponents really kill us

B. The hawks and Spurs are the two BEST coached teams who play with extreme discipline. That means switching off picks and blocking out for defensive rebounds. The Celtics are quite the opposite - and have just recently picked it up a notch with solid team defense - which indeed caused our recent success

If were were going to try and emulate the Spurs / Hawks we would need:
A. Bigger SG / SF who can switch off picks and stay with big men
B. Several above average to elite outside shooters
C. At least one more lock down defender (think Kawahi Leonard)

That being said - I think we can get there. Marcus Smart is the first piece of the puzzle (esp. if his outside shot keeps falling). If we could somehow get Jimmy Butler / Kawahi Leonard or another elite perimeter player - we would be well on our way (:

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Last few teams to win it all had above average rim protectors. More essential than a pg to win a championship. Even if you don't have a Howard or Davis, solid team defense (Celtics '08, Pistons '04) and or superstar wings with solid bigs (Heat '12-13) gets it done.

I don't really think the Heat had any good rim protectors. Chris Anderson was a good shot blocker, but he played backup minutes and I think he is a little overrated. Chris Bosh has always been above 50% in defense at the rim, and this year he is at 55% this year.

[guava_wrench]

Kudos on the insightful post. I think you have some points but:

A. A rim protector is like an garbage man who cleans up the mistakes perimeter players make. Since the Celtics featured Rondo and Bradley who both liked to gamble for steals, we were often exposed to penetration - which is where opponents really kill us

B. The hawks and Spurs are the two BEST coached teams who play with extreme discipline. That means switching off picks and blocking out for defensive rebounds. The Celtics are quite the opposite - and have just recently picked it up a notch with solid team defense - which indeed caused our recent success

If were were going to try and emulate the Spurs / Hawks we would need:
A. Bigger SG / SF who can switch off picks and stay with big men
B. Several above average to elite outside shooters
C. At least one more lock down defender (think Kawahi Leonard)

That being said - I think we can get there. Marcus Smart is the first piece of the puzzle (esp. if his outside shot keeps falling). If we could somehow get Jimmy Butler / Kawahi Leonard or another elite perimeter player - we would be well on our way (:

Bradley does not gamble for steals. He focuses on lateral movement, bodying guys, and staying in front of guys.

[guava_wrench]

Last few teams to win it all had above average rim protectors. More essential than a pg to win a championship. Even if you don't have a Howard or Davis, solid team defense (Celtics '08, Pistons '04) and or superstar wings with solid bigs (Heat '12-13) gets it done.

Not sure why you didn't include Dallas (Chandler) and LA (Bynum)

Still, we need a lot more than a rim protector.

[Evantime34]

I'm not sure we need a rim protector, but it is certainly one of our biggest deficiencies. Teams that win without rim protection often do so with an elite offense. Is it necessary? No but is it an area that this team could be improved? Absolutely.

Most of the top teams in the NBA are doing so with an elite offense that is supplemented by their solid defense. We simply don't have the pieces to be an elite offense, yet. I think we are considerably closer to having an elite defensive team than an elite offensive one.

The C's are not good at defending the pick and roll. They are so bad that their defensive scheme is to prevent ball handlers from using the pick even if it occasionally gives ball handlers a direct lane to the hoop. This is due in large part to a lack of speed, timing and length from our big men. The Hawks and the Warriors might not be elite at rim protection, but their small ball lineups allow them the quickness to play good defense against the pick and roll. Since the majority of the C's bigs are slow a rim protector would cover up for the deficiency of the pick and roll defense.

I'm all for Willey Cauley-Stein as the long term solution to this problem, because he can both protect the rim and guard wings on the perimeter in the pick and roll.

[Celtics4ever]

However, what if we get a player like Biyombo? Or a raw rim protector like Noel? Or Hibbert? Or Cauley-Stein? Or Larry Sanders? Anything that these players would give us defensively would also take away offensively. In the end, I don't think we would be better off. We may have fewer weaknesses, but our strengths would not be as strong.

So the reverse of KO and Sully as they are decent on offense and horrible on D.  So we still lose in some regard, how about getting guys who can do both?   That sounds ideal.

[markb]

we need Mark Eaton to win.....can't win without him on next years team.

[Jonny CC]

We had one and got rid of him...Joel Anthony.  lol   

[D.o.s.]

Last few teams to win it all had above average rim protectors. More essential than a pg to win a championship. Even if you don't have a Howard or Davis, solid team defense (Celtics '08, Pistons '04) and or superstar wings with solid bigs (Heat '12-13) gets it done.

I don't really think the Heat had any good rim protectors. Chris Anderson was a good shot blocker, but he played backup minutes and I think he is a little overrated. Chris Bosh has always been above 50% in defense at the rim, and this year he is at 55% this year.

That's his point -- the Heat had the kind of wings that allowed them to play the sort of frantic defense they needed to compensate for their lack of size inside.

[Celtics4ever]

we need Mark Eaton to win.....can't win without him on next years team.

I was waiting for a wiseguy to pounce on, thanks!

On the other Russell won 11 rings,
Chief won three,
Hakeem 2,
Jabbar won 6
Malone 2, 
Cowens 2.
Duncan five
Shaq 5
KG 1

All great centers who could protect the rim.  Some of these guys were more of put you on your back rim protector but they patrolled the paint.  If you can't see it helps I truly feel sorry for you, perhaps you should take up braille.

The argument against it is Jordan with 6 and Lebron with 2

[P stoff]

I agree mostly with the post... getting a one-dimensional shot blocker-type can kill the offense (especially in crunch time).  A longer defender that can move his feet is certainly important, but actual shot blocking isnt that important IMO.  Guys like Henson, Wright, Ibaka can move their feet, but unlike Wright and Henson, Ibaka can shoot from distance.... a nice combo that I think the post refers to.

I think a balance of tough defense, length, and at least a mid-range game is the best combo. If Bass were 6-11 we would have something. 

[Chris22]

Today's NBA is all about the three point shot.

Golden State and the Atlanta Hawks are the two best three point shooting teams.

We need to get Zeller to shoot threes.

[P stoff]

Yes Celts4ever...the list you posted is the holy grail of bigs who had both offensive and defensive skill.  I think the post  (my guess) seems to go deeper into the balance between just getting a big defensive player who does only one thing... as opposed to a guy who doesnt defend at an elite level, but is still solid...who also has SOME offensive game.

Just my take..I could be wrong. We definetly need more length inside, just not sure who is attainable.