In Defense of Jared Sullinger- our best player this season

[chambers]

 Now that the 'terrible' Rondo is gone, and Uncle Snooze is gone, someone is going to cop the brunt of negativity in this town. Bradley has taken his share, and now Sully's next in line.

 The Sullinger criticism is understandable to an extent, but overall it's way overblown.
I mean WAY overblown. Some people here are bashing Sullinger like BBallTim defends Rondo (with a certain level of emotional bias).
He, along with Marcus Smart, has been our best player this season and there's no one that comes close.

Do people forget that this guy is almost one year younger than Kelly Olynyk?

What we are witnessing is a player who is going through a transition period in his career and his place on the court. This is due to Danny Ainge's desire to develop All Star caliber talent, and Steven's stubbornness and belief that Sullinger may actually be able to become a legitimate three point shooting stretch four in the NBA. I'm just not sure that Sullinger believes that's his role in the NBA.

 You're watching a guy who's played under the basket his whole life. He's used his brute strength and insane positioning awareness to bully anyone and everyone that comes near him- particularly when he's got the ball in the low post. His whole life he's been able to back anyone down, put the ball up with his crafty soft touch, It's what Doc used him as with the old guard in his rookie season before he had surgery.
 Ainge and Stevens obviously understand the importance of the three point shot in today's NBA, and due to his lack of length, I believe they've decided to gamble on Sully for the first few years of his career and cross their fingers that he can become an elite three point shooting big man, whilst dropping 20 pounds. It's an understandable gamble, because if Sully were able to do both of those things, he'd arguably be an All Star by age 25.
 The problem is that at the moment, he's on a losing team. He's shooting three point shots which are not his strength...(although they could be one day), and he's been unable to control his weight after back surgery.

 Now, he certainly has developed an attitude problem this season and I think that's at the core of the criticism he's gotten here lately. I'm not sure why exactly but he's somehow 'down' emotionally out there at times- more than we ever expected- and it's holding him back from becoming the player he should become. See the clip below where he says he's tired of losing. He looks miserable- but he's an NBA player getting paid millions- so there must be other factors at play here which we don't see/know about- one of those perhaps being his tiredness due to being overweight with an NBA schedule.

 My personal opinion is that after playing half a season with guys like Pierce, KG and Rondo and then being thrown into this dumpster fire that is now the Celtics, he's lost some motivation. Green and Rondo are gone and he, Bass and Bradley are the last ones left- with Bass sure to be gone soon too.
You can see his lackluster effort on defense on some nights, although I don't agree with the hammering he's gotten regarding his defensive abilities.

 The fact is that we are a terrible defensive team- one of the worst 5 in the league, and Jared Sullinger is often the last man standing in a dumpster fire of a defense.
I'm not sure if anyone remembers him playing next to KG, but he was a solid defender on all front- particularly using his strength as he does now, to keep opposing big men out of the paint and prevent them from gaining comfortable position in the paint.
When he was playing next to KG, he was under the rim basically the entire time he was on the floor. Under Stevens he's been forced to make a transition of guarding from the free throw line and out to the perimeter- something he's never had to do before, and he's simply not comfortable with it yet in his second full season.

I'll reiterate (once again), that this guy is 22 years old, and playing in his second full season.
It's also his first season playing his natural power forward position.

One of the biggest problems right now for Sully is that as they try to add the three point shot and 15 foot jump shot to his game, he's being taken away from the basket and thus reducing his effectiveness as an offensive rebounder- which is his primary strength. It also means his field goal % has dropped because his shots are of a lower percentage and thus his points per game have somewhat stalled.

I'm not sure when they'll give up on the Sullinger three point idea but he has shown improvement considering he's really been only shooting threes for less than two seasons.
I think keeping Sullinger as a stretch four project makes sense for now, because it probably makes it appear that his development/production has stalled slightly and thus devalues his salary in the open market in 2016. I we get to 2016 and he still hasn't become Kevin Love 2.0 then his open market value won't be too fierce, and we can re-sign him to a nice contract and then let him play a style of play closer to Zac Randolph rather than Kevin Love.

Please note that Sully still averages 14 points and 8 rebounds in only 28.8 minutes a game and turned into per 36 minutes, he's still at 17.7 points and 10.2 rebounds per game.

If we replace those low percentage three point shot attempts (29%) with shots around the basket (current 2 point fg% is 49%), I wouldn't be surprised to see him get to 20 points, 10 rebounds per 36 minutes quite easily because he'll be taking better shots and he'll be in contention to grab all those offensive rebounds he's so good at getting particularly on the offensive end-and getting easy putbacks and trips to the free throw line.

The three point shooting this season has seen his offensive rebounding numbers drop off from being the 7th best offensive rebounder in the league at 3.3 O boards per game in 2014 to being #19 in the NBA of all power forwards at 2.7 O boards a game- although his defensive rebounding numbers have gotten better at 5.5 per game vs 4.9 per game last season which is very impressive. Imagine if we kept him around the basket more? I don't think it would be a stretch to say he could get somewhere around 16/17 points and 10 or 11 rebounds a game.

This season?
He's lowered his turnovers, improved his steals, improved his defensive rebounding,improved his assists, lowered his fouls per game to 3.3, improved his 3 point shooting % on even more attempts per game, and improved his 2 point field goal percentage from the same amount of shot attempts per game.

His defensive impact is not always there, which is somewhat of a concern, but as usual it's blown way out of proportion because when you are on one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA, and you are facing elite big men almost every night, those elite big men get the ball in the paint much easier than against other teams and get the shots they want in the flow of the offense they want. His offensive rating has improved and his defensive rating has improved- even though he's playing away from the basket on offense for much of his time on the court, and his co-defender in the paint is either Kelly Olynyk, Bass or Zeller. Now I haven't looked into it yet, but I would wager $100 that Sullinger's defensive impact with Zeller out there compared to Olynyk or Bass would be much more efficient.

Anyway, he's 22. He's still improving. He's in his second full season. He hasn't even played 3 years in the NBA yet.

Lay off Sully and be happy that we got this guy with the 21st pick. The calls to 'trade him while he's worth something' are pretty ridiculous considering the changes he's having to play through.

Here's a few short clips of Sully on defense, and another one showing his fury at losing so much.
He's definitely got some emotional maturing to go through, but he's 22 years old for god's sake.
To me, he's a bright spot on a dumpster fire of a rebuilding team, and there's still plenty of potential there.

Defense Vs Hibbert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPpfm8RQ2c

Defense Vs Jefferson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b8nwZCxb0Y

Random games with KG/Pierce
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V74fM9_Zvx0

tired of losing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S9_c-0VrSY

[Chris22]

Sullinger is a good player, who plays hard.

If you gave out ten dollar bills, someone would complain that theirs was wrinkled, or they didn't get the first one.

[hpantazo]

Many TPs to the OP. Sullinger is indeed our best player so far this season and a great young asset. The criticism is totally overblown and it seems like some fans just need to dump on someone for the poor win-loss record. We are lucky to have Suliinger and I look forward to seeing him develop further as a player on this team long term. He works hard, is a force inside when allowed to play there, and is developing a nice outside shot. He passes well for a big man too, and his defense is highly underrated.

I think some of the criticism stems from people's unconscious thoughts when they see a player slightly overweight playing for our team, they think 'heck, I can do better than that guy, he looks as out of shape as me', when in fact they can't and they have no idea how badly they would get crushed on an NBA floor.

[Timdawgg]

Great Post Chambers!!! Thank you! TP!

[flybono]

Sullinger is a good player, who plays hard.

If you gave out ten dollar bills, someone would complain that theirs was wrinkled, or they didn't get the first one.

What games u watching?
Overweight, cannot jump and cannot play a lick of defense. Toooo Slow!

[hpantazo]

Sullinger is a good player, who plays hard.

If you gave out ten dollar bills, someone would complain that theirs was wrinkled, or they didn't get the first one.

What games u watching?
Overweight, cannot jump and cannot play a lick of defense. Toooo Slow!

The guy we drafted at #21 is averaging 14 and 8 on 44% shooting in his third season. I'd say he's a very good player with room to grow still. What did you think we would get at #21, the next Karl Malone? No one drafted 21 or later in that draft is doing nearly as well, except for Draymond Green, who many fans on here would have called for Ainge's removal had he drafted him at 21.

KO on the other hand is another story. We traded up to grab him AND passed on Giannis, and KO is crapping the floor lately.

[jmen788]

But the thing is, since he missed his first year, doesn't he only have one or two years left on his rookie deal?

Also, yes, you can point to his stats, BUT SOMEONE MUST GET STATS ON A BAD TEAM. We are not a good team, in fact, at this time we are incredibly bad. His stats are not impressive. In fact they should be much better on such a bad team.

We are all Celtics fans, just some of us have different opinions on how to get us back to greatness. I personally just can't see him as a starter on our next contending team.

[spikelovetheCelts]

But the thing is, since he missed his first year, doesn't he only have one or two years left on his rookie deal?

Also, yes, you can point to his stats, BUT SOMEONE MUST GET STATS ON A BAD TEAM. We are not a good team, in fact, at this time we are incredibly bad. His stats are not impressive. In fact they should be much better on such a bad team.

We are all Celtics fans, just some of us have different opinions on how to get us back to greatness. I personally just can't see him as a starter on our next contending team.

Great postt Chambers.  Until he plays with a true center we will really never know. I hope we can get one in the draft and SULLY will show his true value. He was a top 3 recruit as a HS senior like Bradley was. He will be a starter on a Playoff team for sure.

[CelticLight]

Awesome post Chambers, I agree with alot of what you wrote.  I agree strongly that hitting the 3 wasn't something he worked on throughout his life and being in the post is something he's relatively good at, therefore he may not be completely comfortable in his role.  I think Brad is trying to develop our players and take them out of there comfort zone to improve aspects of their games, look at smart not attacking, AB taking all these shots, and Sully shooting 3s.  These things we witness in games are a product of what Stevens wants these guys to work on in the long run.  Unfortunately this is a lost season, guys have the time to develop and improve on things they aren't known for.  But again, I agree Sully is our best player on the team right now, and will most certainly improve given his young age.

[Celtics4ever]

 I actually agree with some of what you say.  Let me point out the areas that you over reach on.

You're watching a guy who's played under the basket his whole life. He's used his brute strength and insane positioning awareness to bully anyone and everyone that comes near him- particularly when he's got the ball in the low post. His whole life he's been able to back anyone down, put the ball up with his crafty soft touch, It's what Doc used him as with the old guard in his rookie season before he had surgery.

The brute strength is a myth, see link below, he only did nine bench press at the combine.  He benched 185 nine times.  That is weak for a grown man.  Crowder did 20,  Rob Gronkowski of the NFL Patriots did 225   twenty three times, weighing about 15  pounds less than Sullinger that is brute strength.  I know it is a different sport  and Gronk is a TE.   But if you look at the site posted second below you will see that there are wide recievers who bench more weight than Sully, are faster than Sully and weight less than Sully.   So stop making sound like he the HULK, he is a buik.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/nba-draft-combine-results/

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Rob&l=Gronkowski&i=8506

He is not brutally strong, he is hefty there is a big difference.

The fact is that we are a terrible defensive team- one of the worst 5 in the league, and Jared Sullinger is often the last man standing in a dumpster fire of a defense.
I'm not sure if anyone remembers him playing next to KG, but he was a solid defender on all front- particularly using his strength as he does now, to keep opposing big men out of the paint and prevent them from gaining comfortable position in the paint.
When he was playing next to KG, he was under the rim basically the entire time he was on the floor. Under Stevens he's been forced to make a transition of guarding from the free throw line and out to the perimeter- something he's never had to do before, and he's simply not comfortable with it yet in his second full season.

Playing with a rim protector would help him some.  Anyone looks like a better defender next to KG.  I think his lack of athletic ability and it has been there from the beginning limits his potential as a defender.  Sulllinger makes Bird look like Carl Lewis.

Opponent PF shot  .462 % against him.  Opposing Centers .48% against back then hardly lockdown back in his rookie season.   Today they are shooting .46% for PF and .53% for C.  Opponents per 48 points are almost the same, his rookie season PF were 18.3 today it is 20.6 with C being 20.1 and 20.7 today.  Their PER per 48 is almost the same as well.  PF his rookie season were averaging 15  and today their PER is 15.6, C was 17.6 as rookie, and 18.1 PER today.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS15.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1415/14BOS15.HTM

So was he a better defender, back then?   I think the difference is marginal.   Our memories do strange things, we tend to recall highlights and low-points more than things as they actually were back then.

It's also his first season playing his natural power forward position.

  He still plays a lot of center, 82 games says he is still playing 17% of his minutes at C.   He also played PF with KG and through out his career.

I'm not sure when they'll give up on the Sullinger three point idea but he has shown improvement considering he's really been only shooting threes for less than two seasons.
I think keeping Sullinger as a stretch four project makes sense for now, because it probably makes it appear that his development/production has stalled slightly and thus devalues his salary in the open market in 2016. I we get to 2016 and he still hasn't become Kevin Love 2.0 then his open market value won't be too fierce, and we can re-sign him to a nice contract and then let him play a style of play closer to Zac Randolph rather than Kevin Lov

Please note  that he shot 52 three pointers while at OSU.  It does make sense to let him shoot them because it helps us improve our draft lot.  As for the improvement, he is almost back down to last years horrible .28%.   As of yesterday, he was .30% but he started the year hot and I can see how people thought he improved.    However, lately his true shooting has resurfaced although 2% is an improvement.

I also think it more likely he becomes Kevin Duckworth than Kevin Love.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jared-sullinger-1.html

Now, he certainly has developed an attitude problem this season and I think that's at the core of the criticism he's gotten here lately. I'm not sure why exactly but he's somehow 'down' emotionally out there at times- more than we ever expected- and it's holding him back from becoming the player he should become. See the clip below where he says he's tired of losing. He looks miserable- but he's an NBA player getting paid millions- so there must be other factors at play here which we don't see/know about- one of those perhaps being his tiredness due to being overweight with an NBA schedule.

His ability to self-actualize and maximize his potential, I agree is a problem.  One would think that a player would lose weight playing basketball.   Most players run a lot during a game, he does not, but most players do.   He looks heavier as the season goes on.  How does a guy gain weight during the season?   I think this speak volumes about a person's professional attitudes and caring about their career?   What is going to happen next, will his supporters claim he has a thyroid condition?

Last season, Ainge tasked him to come back in the best shape of his career.   He did not, I am not sure, he has a lot of hard work in him.    He is talented, not athletically, but in a skilled way. For some reason, he does not take care of himself.   Ainge ought to get him a chef, send his butt to a dietitian, a personal trainer and a therapists.    This kind of attitude has hurt several players just look at Big Baby now.  Mel Turpin comes to mind, as well.  He is young but he is also a man, and should be held accountable for behaviors.  It is grow up time, and time to ditch the late night pizzas.

If we replace those low percentage three point shot attempts (29%) with shots around the basket (current 2 point fg% is 49%), I wouldn't be surprised to see him get to 20 points, 10 rebounds per 36 minutes quite easily because he'll be taking better shots and he'll be in contention to grab all those offensive rebounds he's so good at getting particularly on the offensive end-and getting easy putbacks and trips to the free throw line.

I agree but I think his boards will go up even more if he is close to the bucket.  He never be that good on defense but he can be nifty in the post.

. The calls to 'trade him while he's worth something' are pretty ridiculous considering the changes he's having to play through.

I agree, it would be best to let him play it out, but in reality no one wants him.   We could not get a dime for him.   21 teams passed on him for a reason and we are seeng those reasons.

The guy we drafted at #21 is averaging 14 and 8 on 44% shooting in his third season

.44% may sound good but is not.   That is 21 in shooting percentage exactly where we picked him.   The best PF shot .58% the top ten over 50%.  His shooting is .49.5% with two point shots alone but the good PF blow this out of water as well.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/position/power-forwards

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/position/power-forwards

Sullinger is a good player, who plays hard.

LOL, the playing hard is the one of the funniest things I have ever read on the board.  This is what playing hard looks like, pay attention to number 18.  Sullinger does not have it in him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NUC_mflTI

He is what he is folks, non athletic, somewhat lazy possessing great hands and a knack for rebounding.   He can be nifty in the post but is also a threat to get his shot blocked because he can't get off the floor.   

I agree that he is one of our better players this year but that is like saying he was one of the better swimmers on the Titanic. 

[Evantime34]

At this point I see him as a tweener.

He is best on offense in the post, but not long enough to finish over centers. On the perimeter he is not quick enough or a  good enough shooter to score on power forwards.

On defense he is big enough to defend in the post but not long or athletic enough to protect the rim as a center. He is certainly not quick enough to guard the majority of the 4's.

If he wants to succeed in the league he needs to slim down to improve his quickness so that he can guard 4's and attack from the perimeter against 4's. I also have a feeling that he would shoot better from 3 if he was in better shape.


I think long term Olynyk will be a much better player.

My comments on the OP's post
1. Sullinger is younger than Olynyk, but his game is pretty much exactly the same as it was in college. Olynyk on the other hand only had guard skills coming into the NBA and was essentially a blank slate when it came to playing in the post. Due to this I see more upside in Olynyk than Sullinger
2. Sullinger doesn't always try hard, he often doesn't help on defense. His effort is limited by the bad shape he is in.
3. He has barely improved his body since he has come into the league. I don't think we will see major improvement in his game until he gets in better shape.
4. He is shooting so many 3 point shots because he can't score in the paint on centers in the league, and since he isn't a great shooter there is no reason for him to be guarded by the smaller players that he could easily score on in the post. They aren't forcing him to shoot more 3's, he is shooting more 3's out of necessity because he can't score in the post against most 5's.
5. We are actually not a terrible defensive team. We are a middle of the pack defensive team. We give up more points because we play at a faster pace, but if you adjust for pace we are the 15th best defense in the league.

[Tr1boy]

Nice post Celtics4ever.

Danny will bite the bullet and give him another chance for next season. But I would not be surprised if Danny also drafts a pf to make Sully and KO sweat. 

[Celtics4ever]

At this point I see him as a tweener.

He is best on offense in the post, but not long enough to finish over centers. On the perimeter he is not quick enough or a  good enough shooter to score on power forwards

I see him as a tweener too, he is a short 6-9 if I have ever seen one.

Thanks Triboy!

[Tr1boy]

At this point I see him as a tweener.

He is best on offense in the post, but not long enough to finish over centers. On the perimeter he is not quick enough or a  good enough shooter to score on power forwards

I see him as a tweener too, he is a short 6-9 if I have ever seen one.

Thanks Triboy!

He is not any shorter than David West, Charles Oakley.  He can still be better. But it will depend on how serious he is about transforming his body.

[chambers]

Quote from: Celtics4ever on Yesterday at 06:44:13 PM

The brute strength is a myth[/b], see link below, he only did nine bench press at the combine.  He benched 185 nine times.  That is weak for a grown man.  Crowder did 20,  Rob Gronkowski of the NFL Patriots did 225   twenty three times, weighing about 15  pounds less than Sullinger that is brute strength.  I know it is a different sport  and Gronk is a TE.   But if you look at the site posted second below you will see that there are wide recievers who bench more weight than Sully, are faster than Sully and weight less than Sully.   So stop making sound like he the HULK, he is a buik.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/nba-draft-combine-results/

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Rob&l=Gronkowski&i=8506

He is not brutally strong, he is hefty there is a big difference.

The brute strength issue is not a myth. You're talking about a bench press, and as someone who goes to the gym every 2nd day like clock work, I can tell you that the bench uses your arms, chest and particularly triceps as the main body parts to produce power. I'm talking about his lower body and his enormous backside/hamstrings/waist that he 'throws' around like a wrecking ball. You don't have to be a basketball genius to see this in action. He literally throws his hips into opposing players and bumps them off the ball with ease and it's a crucial part of his rebounding success and 7 foot + players on a nightly basis.

Just last week against Portland or Golden State, Scalabrine talked about how ridiculously strong Sully was around the basket and it was why he's such a good rebounder in the NBA. He noted that his lower body strength made him an incredible box out rebounder.

He still plays a lot of center, 82 games says he is still playing 17% of his minutes at C.   He also played PF with KG and through out his career.

17% of 28.8 minutes is 4.8 minutes a game. That is not 'a lot' of time at center lol.

Last season, Ainge tasked him to come back in the best shape of his career.   He did not, I am not sure, he has a lot of hard work in him.    He is talented, not athletically, but in a skilled way. For some reason, he does not take care of himself.   Ainge ought to get him a chef, send his butt to a dietitian, a personal trainer and a therapists.    This kind of attitude has hurt several players just look at Big Baby now.  Mel Turpin comes to mind, as well.  He is young but he is also a man, and should be held accountable for behaviors.  It is grow up time, and time to ditch the late night pizzas.

I agree with you on this, he must get in better shape- but he did come back at the start of the season in much better shape. Do you remember how trim he was (compared to currently) at the start of summer league/training camp? We were excited. During the season he's put it back on and he needs long term commitment to a paleo or low carb diet.

.44% may sound good but is not.   That is 21 in shooting percentage exactly where we picked him.   The best PF shot .58% the top ten over 50%.  His shooting is .49.5% with two point shots alone but the good PF blow this out of water as well.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/position/power-forwards

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/position/power-forwards

The good PF blow 49.5% out of the water from two point land?
Let's see, Pau Gasol, who shoots quite a few jump shots like Sullinger, shoots 48.6%.
A few other guys probably considered some of the best power forwards in the NBA:
Kevin Love  47.9 2p FG%
LeMarcus ALdridge 46.4 2p FG%

In fact, out of the top 15 scoring power forwards in the NBA, Sullinger has the 8th best 2p FG% out of all of them.
My point is that because he's forced to take so many low percentage three point shots, it's hurting his overall shooting percentage and adjusted shooting percentage.

I agree, it would be best to let him play it out, but in reality no one wants him.   We could not get a dime for him.   21 teams passed on him for a reason and we are seeng those reasons.

You honestly believe we couldn't get a lottery pick for Jared Sullinger? How do you know that no one wants him? The only rumor I heard involving Sullinger was the Kevin Love to Boston rumor and he was up against Andrew Wiggins and some solid Chicago assets/players in that trade comparison.
The reason 20 teams passed on him before us was because of a back issue and questions of whether it would end his career early or the injury would get worse because it required surgery. It appears that the back is fixed now, as he hasn't missed a game this season.

Lets look at the 2012 draft and the guys that were picked before him

2012 Draft:
1 Anthony Davis
2 Michael Kidd Gilchrist
3 Bradley Beal
4 Dion Waiters
5 Thomas Robinson
6 Damian Lillard
7 Harrison Barnes
8 Terrence Ross
9 Andre Drummond
10 Austin Rivers
11 Meyers Leonard
12 Jeremy Lamb
13 Kendall Marshall
14 John Henson
15 Moe Harkless
16 Royce White
17 Tyler Zeller
18 Terrence Jones
19 Andrew Nicholson
20 Evan Fournier
21 Jared Sullinger

I've bolded the guys that have had better careers in the NBA so far. That makes him a top 5 pick so far from that draft, that we scored at pick 21.

Anyway, he's got his issues at the moment, but you're not being fair to a kid that's playing in his second full NBA season. Other than Marcus Smart, he's our best player and we got him with the 21st pick.