Can Sully and KO get better?

[manl_lui]

I think KO has the bigger upside in my opinion. He seems to be getting more comfortable with the offense now since moving him to the bench. However, he absolutely has to improve his defense. There is no getting around it. He is a below average defender who fouls a lot. Just my opinion but if KO can play defense, he'd be a star in this league. He'd be a poor man's Dirk on offense but with better D in the east 

[colincb]

Takes 5 years for a big to develop.  We have KO with just over one year and Sullinger with just over 2 years of playing time factoring in injuries.  Who knows how good they'll be, but they both are above average offensively now.  Defense will come, though I don't see either being elite. KO can certainly get stronger too.

[jmen788]

This is obviously a subjective opinion-- but I think KO can definitely get better, but I have my doubts about Sullinger. I like Sullinger, but he's inconsistent, and kind of like the Jeff Green of big men. Olynyck will not magically learn athleticism but he can score (although it's ugly sometimes), and I envision us getting defense/rebounding from a true center in a year or two (If not Okafor, Towns or Turner, PLEASE get Deandre, even if it's for the max!)

I don't see any way Jordan is leaving LA. Prime market, a coach who brought him to the next level, good team on which he plays a vital part. Situation and market wise, you really can't get better.

It would have to come strictly down to money and the Clippers can offer more money and years. Is he a max player? Probably not, but close enough. However, even if you are willing to overpay him and pay him the max, you don't think the Clippers will match or top that? Ballmer just overpaid for the team to ensure that he got it. After $2B for the team, I don't think he's going to be scared off by the luxury tax.

I could be wrong, of course, but I would be shocked if he's not a Clipper next season.

Perhaps, but different needs for different teams. LAC already have another good big in Griffin who rebounds, can block shots, etc. Getting a center (and a defensive-oriented rim protector) is enough to justify overpaying him by offering the max. That's not as big of a need for the Clips, and even if they will end up maxing him out, we should still pursue Deandre and FORCE THEM to do so. I am typically against offering the max but I would for Jordan and Butler. Kahwi Leonard-- maybe.

[clover]

I think KO has the bigger upside in my opinion. He seems to be getting more comfortable with the offense now since moving him to the bench. However, he absolutely has to improve his defense. There is no getting around it. He is a below average defender who fouls a lot. Just my opinion but if KO can play defense, he'd be a star in this league. He'd be a poor man's Dirk on offense but with better D in the east 

I agree--KO has bigger upside, but he does have to play more aggressively to reach his full potential. I'd give him more minutes, but also regular, consistent and sustained coaching to work on fighting harder while fouling less and, especially, on looking for and taking his shot more often. Young essentially has his own private coach, and I guess Walter is who they have for the big men.

But I'd like to see Walter in KO's ear, in a positive but insistent way, throughout the games, while KO plays longer minutes. From all accounts KO himself keeps working hard to improve his game, but there's no way he should still be hesitating on shots as he is. In effect, he's getting more and more game experience not playing the right way for him.

[Celtics4ever]

Athletic ability is the hardest thing to improve as an athlete.   I have always thought that both of them are skilled but they have finite ceilings as their skill levels are already high but their athletic potential is low.  KO would help by getting stronger, less passive and improved shot but this would not help his foot speed or lack of jumping.   Sully would be helped by getting into shape but he is woefully poor athlete and would still be a poor athlete to some degree in shape.  A guy is a thoroughbred or he is not these guys are not.   That is not to say that they can't play in some capacity.

Sully's threes sometimes have no rotation, it is ugly and I question whether he will ever have a sure stroke.   I can take his offense  especially in the post though he has a tendency to play hero ball.   I abhor his defense.  I think the NO game showed he can put forth an effort when he wants to do so.   He played hard this game than he has in recent memory.   Was he up because of the OSU game or playing Davis.    This leads me to think that he is lazy and coasts in other games or does not get up for them.   That kind of guy needs to go by the wayside.  I loved Rondo but hated that aspect of his game as well.   Play to your ability every game, you can't control how the other team is playing but you can always control your effort level.

I too think KO has better upside and his neck has got more muscular and I think his physique has improved some during the year and over the summer.   I can't say that of Jared.

[Csfan1984]

I feel they will improve but they are probably 80% of what they will be. Only big changes I can forsee is more improved system understanding. I don't believe elite consistent  shooting or good "all game" D will come they just don't have that. I would like try to feature at least one for trade as they are both too flawed to keep together. Both seem like good off the bench Bigs and not else more.

[rollie mass]

there are excersises that have worked miracles for guys with lousy vertical,hayward added 6inches to vertical and 15lbs-there are drills for lateral---you could see improvement over summer and i think his vertical has progressed-zeller and KO both have upside--they both have basketball roots-i think kelly is still adjusting to the number of games--sully sure can rumble for a big guy-

[Celtics4ever]

there are excersises that have worked miracles for guys with lousy vertical,hayward added 6inches to vertical and 15lbs-there are drills for lateral---you could see improvement over summer and i think his vertical has progressed-zeller and KO both have upside--they both have basketball roots-i think kelly is still adjusting to the number of games--sully sure can rumble for a big guy-

A lot of those programs, are all hype to sell you stuff.   If it is so easy, why can't everyone jump?  Most of the sites espousing this training is trying to sell you their program or a product.  I will post some of the science below.  A person would be better off using the BFS (Bigger Faster Stronger) weight program that what you mention.   It takes hard work, you make it sound like any Joe Blow can do it.   I don't see that I think it takes hard work and dedication but I do not see that happening with Jared.   I wish it would though.

Hayward is a lean body type and more predisposed  to be faster and jump higher because he is leaner.   He also has a work ethic, something we have not seen in Sully.   How has his body changed since in the league?   I see some change in Oly.  Zeller is already a decent conditioned athlete.  Yes, people can improve with hard work, but it is hard.   Looking at Sully's body type, do you think he works out hard a lot?   The guy is gasping for air in games.   

You are born with so many fast twitch fiber. It is easier to increase the slow than the fast.  The fast is where speed and power lies while the slow is endurance.  You can improve both.   But most people including Sully do not lift 75% of their max weight to build that power.   It is hard work and most people dread it.   In fact, his workouts on the internet were a joke that I seen.   Muscle Adaptation requires stress, I do not always see that kind of effort from Jared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3Aj4D1L86s

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/MuscleFiberType.htm

here is an example of training improvement of fast twitch.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2150579

Scientific study on fast twitch training, it increased 6% in six weeks.   That is changing the composition of fiber types only.   That means more power but won't always translate into better leaping as your are working what you have to work with.  Sully will not do this kind of workout it is not in his nature.  Sully moves slow, he is not even a remotely fast twitch guy and he is lazy.   How often to you see him walk to the sidelines or sprint up the court.  He does not sprint in the games let alone in the off season.  He is young, he could do this but I do not think he takes it serious.

Muscle strength is related to the cross-sectional area of the muscle. However, this strong relationship diminishes when "explosive athletes" and endurance athletes are compared. What most studies suggest is that strength is highly related to muscle size. However, people who have a disproportionate amount of fast-twitch fibers will gain strength faster than those who do not. Fast-twitch fibers tend to be stronger than other fiber types, so people who have more of them will tend to be stronger and have greater potential for strength gains.

Several studies have shown that fiber composition is genetically determined. Genetic researchers often investigate the influence of heritability on a trait by studying monozygotic and dizygotic twins (identical and nonidentical twins). Fiber distribution and muscle enzyme activity in monozygotic twins is almost identical in most of these studies.

Genetics is not the sole determinant of individual differences in strength. Numerous studies have shown that many successful strength-speed athletes do not have a predominance of fast-twitch motor units in critical muscles. Further, in athletic subjects, fiber composition is only marginally related to the time subjects can maintain isometric force and perform explosive squat jumps. Genetics exert a strong influence on the ability to gain strength. A good training program can make up for "genetic deficiencies."

Applying Basic Principles of Exercise Training

Trouble is that training result will be finite and you have to do them.  This science based not trying to sell you jumpsoles or air alert or the like or a miracle testerone booster or elastic hands, though those can probably help an underdeveloped guy some. 

I think Weight Lifting is the best way, sprinting and polymetrics.  Ever notice how many jumpers are well developed.   A lot of them of mesomorph body type.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKa_OlSXgQ

"it's science."

Let's hope it happens, but I think nature and willpower is against one of our player.   I think KO has changed his body some and continues to work on it.   Zeller seems dedicated.  Everyone knows my low opinion of Sullinger's effort level.

[clover]

Athletic ability is the hardest thing to improve as an athlete.   I have always thought that both of them are skilled but they have finite ceilings as their skill levels are already high but their athletic potential is low.  KO would help by getting stronger, less passive and improved shot but this would not help his foot speed or lack of jumping.   Sully would be helped by getting into shape but he is woefully poor athlete and would still be a poor athlete to some degree in shape.  A guy is a thoroughbred or he is not these guys are not.   That is not to say that they can't play in some capacity.

Sully's threes sometimes have no rotation, it is ugly and I question whether he will ever have a sure stroke.   I can take his offense  especially in the post though he has a tendency to play hero ball.   I abhor his defense.  I think the NO game showed he can put forth an effort when he wants to do so.   He played hard this game than he has in recent memory.   Was he up because of the OSU game or playing Davis.    This leads me to think that he is lazy and coasts in other games or does not get up for them.   That kind of guy needs to go by the wayside.  I loved Rondo but hated that aspect of his game as well.   Play to your ability every game, you can't control how the other team is playing but you can always control your effort level.

I too think KO has better upside and his neck has got more muscular and I think his physique has improved some during the year and over the summer.   I can't say that of Jared.

I agree--KO got stronger in the off-season, but looks like he has definitely got more muscle in his upper body, at least, as this season has gone on. He's doing the work, and I think it will pay off. Probably by next year.

Oh, and I can't believe the C's plan to keep Sully long term. I expect him to put up decent numbers--and for them to move him.

[goCeltics]

i have sully lowly rated because he still out of shape and his been what 3 years in the league, not a great sign that his willing to put the work in to improve

[Onslaught]

Can they get better? I'd think so but I don't like the fact that Sully can't seem to get into shape.
I however don't think either of them will ever be as good as some on this site seem to think. I hear
"possible All Star" and stuff like that. If they make the All Star list then the NBA is in sorry shape.

[TwinTower14]

Can't wrap my mind around him not getting in shape, I just can't believe that he hasn't gone the Kevin Love route and completely changed his body....

Not to mention this guy already had one back surgery, you think he would be like, I am going to shed some weight and take pressure off my back etc...

It's a shame because he is so skilled, really makes you question his professionalism....

[kozlodoev]

I agree--KO got stronger in the off-season, but looks like he has definitely got more muscle in his upper body, at least, as this season has gone on. He's doing the work, and I think it will pay off. Probably by next year.

Strange. He looks exactly the same to me.

[aingeforthree]

Sullinger, KO, Smart, Young, Bradley, Crowder, Pressey, Zeller......they all can & will get better.

[Chief Macho]

Not enough to really matter.