Author Topic: The Jae Crowder Fan Club  (Read 33177 times)

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Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2015, 03:25:18 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I should mention that I missed tonight's game, because league pass blacks out NBA TV games.  So perhaps if I saw him tonight, I'd be more prisoner of the moment. But as is, I see all the players we received in the Dallas trade as flipable assets that Danny will utilize for picks.

flippable*
Who are the two max contract guys you're going to sign in the off-season?
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Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2015, 03:26:24 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Crowder cuts into our flexibility. Don't get too attached to him until after the deadline.
We aren't chasing flexibility. We are chasing assets that will have long term value to us. Unfortunately, Crowder was a second round pick, so I assume that he will be an unrestricted free agent.

Crowder, for all the 3s he's attempted here, is only shooting 30% on the year from 3. In fact, his career 32% from 3 is less than Smart's 35%, and people say Smart can't shoot. On the bright side, his overall stats suggest he won't have lucrative offers in the off season.

We aren't going to do an all-in panic free agency binge summer because Ainge isn't a fool and doesn't want to throw money at Travis Outlaw, Anthony Morrow, and Jordan Farmar (like that sad year the Nets had cap space but no players interested).
I agree with your premise... We shouldn't dump 40 million into the likes of farmer and morrow. We shouldnt dump 40 million into the likes of rondo and green either.  But maximizing our cap space this summer doesn't mean we have to blow the money on overrated talent. A couple reasonable contracts might be had.  Perhaps you can come to a reasonable contract offer (7-10 mil) for some viable starters like affalo, Wes Matthews, Asik, etc.  There is a surprising amount of free agent talent this summer and if we can dump players for picks we can maximize our talent haul.

I know it's an alien concept to Celtic fans... As far as I know there has never been a time in the past 20 years that Boston had cap space to utilize. The perception remains that we can't draw talent here merely because we've never had money to offer anyone. 

We could overpay for a couple guys but it would probably be serviceable young starter talent like Greg Monroe and Brandon knight. 

If you come out of this summer with Monroe, knight and the 6+ draft picks we received by ridding ourselves of rondo and green... That's sure as heck a better talent collection than merely extending green and rondo.

It's in our best interest to have as much cap space as possible. Crowder is a free agent. We need to keep that in mind. He could play himself into a big payday. 

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2015, 03:33:02 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I should mention that I missed tonight's game, because league pass blacks out NBA TV games.  So perhaps if I saw him tonight, I'd be more prisoner of the moment. But as is, I see all the players we received in the Dallas trade as flipable assets that Danny will utilize for picks.

flippable*
Who are the two max contract guys you're going to sign in the off-season?

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

Say I gave you 40 million dollars to play with this summer, tarheel.

Option 1 -  gamble on keeping rondo and green

Option 2 -  I'll give you 6+ draft picks to abandon green and rondo for a few months.  You can still try to sign them this summer if you want... Or you can find a creative way to use that 40 million in cap space by offering contract to all of those available players. You can mix and match as you please. Want to sign 8 average players to 5 mil deals?... Go for it.  Want to overpay two guys from that list ?  Go for it.  Want to offer max contracts to green and rondo?  Go for it.  But by taking this option, you will have guaranteed yourself 6+ draft picks.

Which option you taking?

Granted, we will not have 40 mil in cap space without dumping Bradley's bloated contract and avoiding overpaying role players like Crowder...  but the premise still applies.

You don't get this opportunity very often.  Inevitably we're going to have to pay to keep guys like Sully, Smart, Oly, etc.  You can only take advantage of this situation while you have kids on cheap rookie contracts.  It's in the best interest of this organization to maximize our cap space. 

Ainge has invested a ton of energy in putting us in this position.  This is the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too.  We moved Green/Rondo for 6+ picks... and really are in no worse a position than we were prior to the trades.  If we ever had a chance of signing those guys this summer, we'll still have that opportunity.   If not Green and Rondo, we can bring in equal talent (fringe stars).  But those draft picks, baby... All for saying, "Hey Jeff and Rajon... we're gonna send you off to contenders for a few months.  I look forward to discussing contracts with you during the free agent period".  And now we'd be in a far better position to negotiate with them.  Instead of them holding our butts over the fire and saying, "Pay up or watch us leave you empty handed" we can say, "Meh... we got our 6+ picks... Here's a reasonable contract offer... if you don't wanna sign here, we'll just use the money on someone like Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight.  Whatevs"

All of which why I wouldn't get too attached to Crowder until the deadline comes and goes.   If Ainge believes he's going to get 6-7 mil on the open market, I think he'll strongly consider cashing him in for a pick.   Just like Green and Rondo... if you really want Crowder this summer, you can feel free to offer him a contract.  But getting a pick now would be a win.  Have that cake and eat it, baby.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 03:46:32 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2015, 03:58:21 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I should mention that I missed tonight's game, because league pass blacks out NBA TV games.  So perhaps if I saw him tonight, I'd be more prisoner of the moment. But as is, I see all the players we received in the Dallas trade as flipable assets that Danny will utilize for picks.

flippable*
Who are the two max contract guys you're going to sign in the off-season?

I still can't see 2 max contract guys you're bringing in.

As for draft picks, they're great. And I don't believe the Green and Rondo trades were a mistake. But you need to consider the quality of the picks... look at how highly protected/unfavorable our 1st round picks are:

2015 first round draft pick from Dallas
Dallas' 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-3 and 15-30 in 2015, 1-7 in 2016, 1-7 in 2017, 1-7 in 2018, 1-7 in 2019 and 1-7 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

2015 first round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
L.A. Clippers' 2015 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-L.A. Clippers, 6/25/2013]

2015 first round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota's 1st round pick to Boston (via Phoenix) protected for selections 1-12 in 2015 and 1-12 in 2016; if Minnesota has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Boston by 2016, then Minnesota will instead convey its 2016 2nd round pick and 2017 2nd round pick to Boston [Minnesota-New Orleans-Phoenix, 7/27/2012; Boston-Phoenix, 1/9/2015]

2015 first round draft pick from Philadelphia
Philadelphia's 2015 1st round pick to Boston (via Miami) protected for selections 1-14; if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Philadelphia will instead convey its 2015 2nd round pick and 2016 2nd round pick to Boston [Miami-Philadelphia, 6/28/2012; Boston-Golden State-Miami, 1/15/2014]

2015 second round draft pick from Washington
Washington's 2015 2nd round pick to Boston protected for selections 31-49 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Washington's obligation to Boston will be extinguished) [Boston-Washington, 7/19/2014]

2016 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Brooklyn's 2016 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]

2016 first round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-10 in 2016, 1-10 in 2017 and 1-10 in 2018 and unprotected in 2019 [Boston-Brooklyn-Cleveland, 7/10/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 2016 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Cleveland, 9/25/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from Dallas
Dallas will convey the more favorable of its 2016 2nd round pick and Memphis' 2016 2nd round pick to Boston (via Denver to Dallas then removal of protection from Memphis) [Denver-Memphis, 8/7/2009; Dallas-Denver, 12/13/2011; Dallas-Memphis, 7/22/2013; Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 2016 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Golden State-Miami, 1/15/2014]

2017 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Boston has the right to swap its 2017 1st round pick for Brooklyn's 2017 1st round pick; if Boston exercises this swap right, then Boston will convey its 2017 2nd round pick to Brooklyn protected for selections 31-45 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Boston's obligation to Brooklyn will be extinguished) [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]; this potential pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2017 first round draft pick from Boston" on Brooklyn Credits

2017 first round draft pick from Memphis
If at least two years after Memphis conveyed a 1st round pick to Denver, then Memphis' 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-10 in 2017, 1-12 in 2018, 1-8 in 2019 and 1-6 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Memphis-New Orleans, 1/12/2015]

2017 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 2017 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Cleveland, 9/25/2014]

2018 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Brooklyn's 2018 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2015, 04:15:53 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I should mention that I missed tonight's game, because league pass blacks out NBA TV games.  So perhaps if I saw him tonight, I'd be more prisoner of the moment. But as is, I see all the players we received in the Dallas trade as flipable assets that Danny will utilize for picks.

flippable*
Who are the two max contract guys you're going to sign in the off-season?


I still can't see 2 max contract guys you're bringing in.

As for draft picks, they're great. And I don't believe the Green and Rondo trades were a mistake. But you need to consider the quality of the picks... look at how highly protected/unfavorable our 1st round picks are:

2015 first round draft pick from Dallas
Dallas' 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-3 and 15-30 in 2015, 1-7 in 2016, 1-7 in 2017, 1-7 in 2018, 1-7 in 2019 and 1-7 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

2015 first round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
L.A. Clippers' 2015 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-L.A. Clippers, 6/25/2013]

2015 first round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota's 1st round pick to Boston (via Phoenix) protected for selections 1-12 in 2015 and 1-12 in 2016; if Minnesota has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Boston by 2016, then Minnesota will instead convey its 2016 2nd round pick and 2017 2nd round pick to Boston [Minnesota-New Orleans-Phoenix, 7/27/2012; Boston-Phoenix, 1/9/2015]

2015 first round draft pick from Philadelphia
Philadelphia's 2015 1st round pick to Boston (via Miami) protected for selections 1-14; if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Philadelphia will instead convey its 2015 2nd round pick and 2016 2nd round pick to Boston [Miami-Philadelphia, 6/28/2012; Boston-Golden State-Miami, 1/15/2014]

2015 second round draft pick from Washington
Washington's 2015 2nd round pick to Boston protected for selections 31-49 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Washington's obligation to Boston will be extinguished) [Boston-Washington, 7/19/2014]

2016 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Brooklyn's 2016 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]

2016 first round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-10 in 2016, 1-10 in 2017 and 1-10 in 2018 and unprotected in 2019 [Boston-Brooklyn-Cleveland, 7/10/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 2016 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Cleveland, 9/25/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from Dallas
Dallas will convey the more favorable of its 2016 2nd round pick and Memphis' 2016 2nd round pick to Boston (via Denver to Dallas then removal of protection from Memphis) [Denver-Memphis, 8/7/2009; Dallas-Denver, 12/13/2011; Dallas-Memphis, 7/22/2013; Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

2016 second round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 2016 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Golden State-Miami, 1/15/2014]

2017 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Boston has the right to swap its 2017 1st round pick for Brooklyn's 2017 1st round pick; if Boston exercises this swap right, then Boston will convey its 2017 2nd round pick to Brooklyn protected for selections 31-45 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Boston's obligation to Brooklyn will be extinguished) [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]; this potential pick conveyance is the same as the one described in "2017 first round draft pick from Boston" on Brooklyn Credits

2017 first round draft pick from Memphis
If at least two years after Memphis conveyed a 1st round pick to Denver, then Memphis' 1st round pick to Boston protected for selections 1-10 in 2017, 1-12 in 2018, 1-8 in 2019 and 1-6 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Memphis-New Orleans, 1/12/2015]

2017 second round draft pick from Cleveland
Cleveland's 2017 2nd round pick to Boston [Boston-Cleveland, 9/25/2014]

2018 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
Brooklyn's 2018 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]
Consider the quality of the picks that net Rondo (#21) and Green (via Perk at #27)... or the fact that we landed those guys by trading Jiri Welsch and Jerome Moiso... 

So far the tally on the Green and Rondo trades are 5 draft picks (6 if we include the 2nd we'll get from moving Austin Rivers) + Jae Crowder + a 12 mil trade exception we can probably use to land another 2nd + Nelson (who will likely be bought out).   Not a bad haul for Moiso and Welsch. 

And as far as I can tell, as long as we don't eat into our cap by giving money to role players like Crowder, our ability to offer Green and Rondo contracts this summer hasn't changed.

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2015, 06:00:42 AM »

Offline Casperian

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WALTAH!

Seriously, though, thumbs up.
There's no need to trade Crowder if he keeps playing like that, although I believe we can keep him for less than $5 million annually.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2015, 06:45:46 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Crowder .....wants to play ...he got screwed in Dallas with playing time......he is in his prime years and healthy as a horse .

He wants to earn and make a name for himself ....this is the type,of player you want on rebuild

People hungry for success .

Yup he is a keeper for an extension.

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2015, 06:51:28 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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i'd love to keep Crowder but he's the wrong player for this team in the same way Kris Humphries was. 

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2015, 07:54:02 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Crowder block from behind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBSajrt6io

22 points
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZQYDiYhiks


Has a higher bbiq than I thought.  Hopefully he can keep making those jump shots.

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2015, 07:56:20 AM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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WALTAH!

Seriously, though, thumbs up.
There's no need to trade Crowder if he keeps playing like that, although I believe we can keep him for less than $5 million annually.

I LOVE CROWDAHHHH!

I thought I had to start this thread. I remember his name coming up in Dallas his first year and thought that was interesting for a second rounder on a contender. He may not be the answer but hustle and tough defense always earns respect in Boston and on this forum.
The Nets will finish with the worst record and the Celtics will end up with the 4th pick.

- Me (sometime in January)

--------------------------------------------------------

Guess I was wrong (May 23rd)

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2015, 08:47:53 AM »

Offline Chris22

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i'd love to keep Crowder but he's the wrong player for this team in the same way Kris Humphries was.

So wrong.

Tough players like Crowder and Smart are exactly what we need.


Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2015, 09:00:36 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Crowder cuts into our flexibility. Don't get too attached to him until after the deadline.
We aren't chasing flexibility. We are chasing assets that will have long term value to us. Unfortunately, Crowder was a second round pick, so I assume that he will be an unrestricted free agent.

Crowder, for all the 3s he's attempted here, is only shooting 30% on the year from 3. In fact, his career 32% from 3 is less than Smart's 35%, and people say Smart can't shoot. On the bright side, his overall stats suggest he won't have lucrative offers in the off season.

We aren't going to do an all-in panic free agency binge summer because Ainge isn't a fool and doesn't want to throw money at Travis Outlaw, Anthony Morrow, and Jordan Farmar (like that sad year the Nets had cap space but no players interested).
I agree with your premise... We shouldn't dump 40 million into the likes of farmer and morrow. We shouldnt dump 40 million into the likes of rondo and green either.  But maximizing our cap space this summer doesn't mean we have to blow the money on overrated talent. A couple reasonable contracts might be had.  Perhaps you can come to a reasonable contract offer (7-10 mil) for some viable starters like affalo, Wes Matthews, Asik, etc.  There is a surprising amount of free agent talent this summer and if we can dump players for picks we can maximize our talent haul.

I know it's an alien concept to Celtic fans... As far as I know there has never been a time in the past 20 years that Boston had cap space to utilize. The perception remains that we can't draw talent here merely because we've never had money to offer anyone. 

We could overpay for a couple guys but it would probably be serviceable young starter talent like Greg Monroe and Brandon knight. 

If you come out of this summer with Monroe, knight and the 6+ draft picks we received by ridding ourselves of rondo and green... That's sure as heck a better talent collection than merely extending green and rondo.

It's in our best interest to have as much cap space as possible. Crowder is a free agent. We need to keep that in mind. He could play himself into a big payday.

We would have had the Bird rights to Rondo and Green, though.  Conceivably, that would have given us the space to re-sign each one of them and add another significant talent this off-season.

My optimistic hope was that with Rondo and Green and the young guys, we could have made a push for the playoffs this year, looked like a promising team for the future, and thus have much more chance of convincing a good starting center to come join a team that looked like it had a strong future.

Right now, I'm not convinced that any talented veteran free agent will look to Boston as a place worth signing. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2015, 09:05:54 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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i'd love to keep Crowder but he's the wrong player for this team in the same way Kris Humphries was.

So wrong.

Tough players like Crowder and Smart are exactly what we need.



Problem is, Crowder will never be anything more than a quality bench player/fringe starter.

It is not wise to invest long-term money into players like that when you don't yet have the core pieces (i.e. stars) in place.

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2015, 09:13:17 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I should mention that I missed tonight's game, because league pass blacks out NBA TV games.  So perhaps if I saw him tonight, I'd be more prisoner of the moment. But as is, I see all the players we received in the Dallas trade as flipable assets that Danny will utilize for picks.

flippable*
Who are the two max contract guys you're going to sign in the off-season?

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

Say I gave you 40 million dollars to play with this summer, tarheel.

Option 1 -  gamble on keeping rondo and green

Option 2 -  I'll give you 6+ draft picks to abandon green and rondo for a few months.  You can still try to sign them this summer if you want... Or you can find a creative way to use that 40 million in cap space by offering contract to all of those available players. You can mix and match as you please. Want to sign 8 average players to 5 mil deals?... Go for it.  Want to overpay two guys from that list ?  Go for it.  Want to offer max contracts to green and rondo?  Go for it.  But by taking this option, you will have guaranteed yourself 6+ draft picks.

Which option you taking?

Granted, we will not have 40 mil in cap space without dumping Bradley's bloated contract and avoiding overpaying role players like Crowder...  but the premise still applies.

You don't get this opportunity very often.  Inevitably we're going to have to pay to keep guys like Sully, Smart, Oly, etc.  You can only take advantage of this situation while you have kids on cheap rookie contracts.  It's in the best interest of this organization to maximize our cap space. 

Ainge has invested a ton of energy in putting us in this position.  This is the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too.  We moved Green/Rondo for 6+ picks... and really are in no worse a position than we were prior to the trades.  If we ever had a chance of signing those guys this summer, we'll still have that opportunity.   If not Green and Rondo, we can bring in equal talent (fringe stars).  But those draft picks, baby... All for saying, "Hey Jeff and Rajon... we're gonna send you off to contenders for a few months.  I look forward to discussing contracts with you during the free agent period".  And now we'd be in a far better position to negotiate with them.  Instead of them holding our butts over the fire and saying, "Pay up or watch us leave you empty handed" we can say, "Meh... we got our 6+ picks... Here's a reasonable contract offer... if you don't wanna sign here, we'll just use the money on someone like Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight.  Whatevs"

All of which why I wouldn't get too attached to Crowder until the deadline comes and goes.   If Ainge believes he's going to get 6-7 mil on the open market, I think he'll strongly consider cashing him in for a pick.   Just like Green and Rondo... if you really want Crowder this summer, you can feel free to offer him a contract.  But getting a pick now would be a win.  Have that cake and eat it, baby.

The bolded part is where I most strongly disagree.  I just don't think it works like that.  I'm fairly certain that when Ainge traded away Green and Rondo for assets, it was with the understanding by both parties that their time as Celtics was up.  If either of those guys comes back this off-season, I will be incredibly shocked.   

I also don't see why another free agent would want to come join a team like the Celtics who are now in clear long-term rebuilding mode.

To me, keeping Rondo and Green and negotiating this summer represented at least a sliver of hope of a shorter rebuild than the path Danny has taken instead.

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: The Jae Crowder Fan Club
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2015, 09:18:49 AM »

Offline Chris22

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i'd love to keep Crowder but he's the wrong player for this team in the same way Kris Humphries was.

So wrong.

Tough players like Crowder and Smart are exactly what we need.



Problem is, Crowder will never be anything more than a quality bench player/fringe starter.

It is not wise to invest long-term money into players like that when you don't yet have the core pieces (i.e. stars) in place.

Crowder is young and already better than Green.

Smart, Young, Crowder, Sullinger and add a center in this years draft, and we are ready to go.