The league lacks superstar talent

[Donoghus]

If egocentric bias & recency bias collided, will the space/time continuum collapse upon itself?

[Moranis]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=69983.0

Here was our 20 team pick 2 draft from not that long ago.  Look at the overall quality of those teams.  In the 80's there were 23 teams, so those teams would only need to be diluted slightly to be a pretty good apples to apples comparison. 

Basketball is better today.  The players are better.  The league has more depth.  etc.

[Donoghus]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=69983.0

Here was our 20 team pick 2 draft from not that long ago.  Look at the overall quality of those teams.  In the 80's there were 23 teams, so those teams would only need to be diluted slightly to be a pretty good apples to apples comparison. 

Basketball is better today.  The players are better.  The league has more depth.  etc.

This is the only slight quip I have here.  If Bird, Kareem, Moncrief, etc..... all had access to today's conditioning methods and medical advances, the tune would certainly be different. 

You're talking 30 years of strides in those areas.  That's a big deal.

[BballTim]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=69983.0

Here was our 20 team pick 2 draft from not that long ago.  Look at the overall quality of those teams.  In the 80's there were 23 teams, so those teams would only need to be diluted slightly to be a pretty good apples to apples comparison. 

Basketball is better today.  The players are better.  The league has more depth.  etc.

This is the only slight quip I have here.  If Bird, Kareem, Moncrief, etc..... all had access to today's conditioning methods and medical advances, the tune would certainly be different. 

You're talking 30 years of strides in those areas.  That's a big deal.

  Stick the hand check rule back in and enforce traveling and palming like it was 30 years ago and a lot of today's stars would shine a lot less brightly. That's probably a bigger issue than training.

[Donoghus]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=69983.0

Here was our 20 team pick 2 draft from not that long ago.  Look at the overall quality of those teams.  In the 80's there were 23 teams, so those teams would only need to be diluted slightly to be a pretty good apples to apples comparison. 

Basketball is better today.  The players are better.  The league has more depth.  etc.

This is the only slight quip I have here.  If Bird, Kareem, Moncrief, etc..... all had access to today's conditioning methods and medical advances, the tune would certainly be different. 

You're talking 30 years of strides in those areas.  That's a big deal.

  Stick the hand check rule back in and enforce traveling and palming like it was 30 years ago and a lot of today's stars would shine a lot less brightly. That's probably a bigger issue than training.

And to my earlier point, stick Lebron, CP3, Dwight, etc.... under 1985 strength & conditioning and medical.  See if some of these guys playing today who blew out ACLs and came back would be able to come back in 1985.

Honestly, I'm not sure which league was deeper.  The league of 1985 or 2015.  I certainly think the game today is as strong as its been since the early '90s.  The level of competition (especially out West) is as fine as we've seen in quite awhile.   Definitely the golden age of PGs.   The international game is certainly the best that we've probably seen it. 

[Eja117]

If egocentric bias & recency bias collided, will the space/time continuum collapse upon itself?

no way. It happens here all the time

[Donoghus]

If egocentric bias & recency bias collided, will the space/time continuum collapse upon itself?

no way. It happens here all the time

Touche.

[Eja117]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=69983.0

Here was our 20 team pick 2 draft from not that long ago.  Look at the overall quality of those teams.  In the 80's there were 23 teams, so those teams would only need to be diluted slightly to be a pretty good apples to apples comparison. 

Basketball is better today.  The players are better.  The league has more depth.  etc.

The quip I have here is that if you took Kobe and Bron to the 70's/80's and let people play actual defense on them, rather than today's video game induced scenario where breathing on a guy gets you a foul and you can actually flop and get the call a lot.....aaannnnddd if you took players from the 70s/80s and let them play now without anyone touching them.....you'd see some very interesting results.
And then you have Michael Jordan who doesn't play today and wasn't really a 70s/80s guy and who could play in any era.

[LilRip]

If Demarcus Cousins is ever considered a superstar, I'm going to watch the WNBA.

and in a couple of years, you just might be watching the WNBA. Sure he was immature early on in his career but he's balling this year and has shown a ton of leadership. He just might be the 2nd best big man today imo, behind Anthony Davis. Sorry Dwight.

[D.o.s.]

That actually shows the opposite -- who's left in the 78-88 era NBA if you take out the Dream Team? The overall talent level was lower in the 70's and 80's, and that's even with the benefit of having a more condensed talent pool.

LOL, that is the weakest argument maybe I have ever seen you do.  Keep throwing stuff up there and maybe if you do enough something will have merit.   There were more All Americans in the league in the past, because there were less teams.   Also, I think more teams had a star, Wilkins was not on one of the Big NBA teams back then and he would have owned today.  Jack Sigma, would be a terrific post nowadays.  I could go on and on.

You really think today is better than these guys?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1338152-legends-of-the-nba-25-best-players-of-the-80s/page/2

Note how many of these fall in this era as opposed to the 80s

http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/11/best-all-around-nba-players/hakeem-olajuwon

Google 100 Greatest NBA players and you won't find as many today as in 78-88 era.      Heck, even college ball was better back then.

At the risk of sounding like a condescending jerk, you realize what nostalgia is and how it works, particularly as it relates to something like the NBA, right?* And the point has never been that the stars were greater or worse in a given era. Stop acting like I'm saying that, or at least take your head out of your waste storage unit and actually read my posts please.

The point is that the average player is better now than ever before. The talent pool is deeper, the scouting is more thorough, the game has evolved, so on and so forth. You can say that the '86 Celtics are the greatest team ever, and I won't argue, but they're certainly the exception that proves the rule, and not any sort of standard for a league average.


*If you don't, check out the NBA's 50 Greatest Players Ever list they commissioned back in 1996-97. How many of those selections look positively quaint?

[Celtics4ever]

At the risk of sounding like a condescending jerk, you realize what nostalgia is

I have heard of Nostalgia, but I am sure you have heard of NBA marketing.   You have drank the kool-aid lock stock and barrel.     They got you hooked, does advertising always work that well on you?  They do it promote every generation as the greatest, that is how they stay relevent.  I recall when they were touting Vince Carter and McGrady as the greatest for a few years.

You still have not named your all time starting five?   My bet Bird and Jordan and Magic might be on it.   I would wager you have a Center other than Cousins or Howard.  LeBron and Durant might be the only modern guys who are on it.   Perhaps Duncan in his prime, maybe Kobe but would you pick him over MJ who came into the league in 83 draft, correct?  But would be hard pressed to find a better era than the late 70s mid 80s for big men quality.   I think McHale was a far superior post scorer than Al Jefferson and he did not have the luxury of playing on a bad team where he could hoist up shot after shot as  the focus of the offense or against the era of shorter big men that persists where almost all of them are power forwards.

I have watched the NBA for over 40 years, do you really think Sullinger would be a starter in the 80s. How about KO?  I do not. 

BTW, I do not think you sound like a jerk.  We disagree, it happens.

here is some thoughts of a man that does not mince words.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21709581/michael-jordan-says-lebron-would-not-be-as-successful-in-his-era

[D.o.s.]

My all time starting five would probably be Robertson Jordan James Duncan and Wilt.

Which has **** all to do with the quality of the average player, which is what we're talking about. Rather, it's what I'm talking about, since you seem absolutely bent on harping on the cream of the crop.

McHale being better than Big Al has nothing to do with the fact that the average 4 (your Larry Smiths* and such) is better today than he was in the 1980's.



*http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithla01.html

[Eja117]

That actually shows the opposite -- who's left in the 78-88 era NBA if you take out the Dream Team? The overall talent level was lower in the 70's and 80's, and that's even with the benefit of having a more condensed talent pool.

LOL, that is the weakest argument maybe I have ever seen you do.  Keep throwing stuff up there and maybe if you do enough something will have merit.   There were more All Americans in the league in the past, because there were less teams.   Also, I think more teams had a star, Wilkins was not on one of the Big NBA teams back then and he would have owned today.  Jack Sigma, would be a terrific post nowadays.  I could go on and on.

You really think today is better than these guys?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1338152-legends-of-the-nba-25-best-players-of-the-80s/page/2

Note how many of these fall in this era as opposed to the 80s

http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/11/best-all-around-nba-players/hakeem-olajuwon

Google 100 Greatest NBA players and you won't find as many today as in 78-88 era.      Heck, even college ball was better back then.

At the risk of sounding like a condescending jerk, you realize what nostalgia is and how it works, particularly as it relates to something like the NBA, right?* And the point has never been that the stars were greater or worse in a given era. Stop acting like I'm saying that, or at least take your head out of your waste storage unit and actually read my posts please.

The point is that the average player is better now than ever before. The talent pool is deeper, the scouting is more thorough, the game has evolved, so on and so forth. You can say that the '86 Celtics are the greatest team ever, and I won't argue, but they're certainly the exception that proves the rule, and not any sort of standard for a league average.


*If you don't, check out the NBA's 50 Greatest Players Ever list they commissioned back in 1996-97. How many of those selections look positively quaint?

wait wait wait......so....without getting into fancy math terms like median or mean or standard deviation or something are you saying if you took like a .500 team (probably an 8 seed or so) from the 80s and a .500 team from now...the one from now would win?

I guess that forgives the part where tanking may be more rampant now, but you know what I mean.

[SHAQATTACK]

So if the League lacks talent ...

What does that say about the Celtics ...who traded every star player off for junk.

Celtics like cheap bench players and saving money

[Moranis]

That actually shows the opposite -- who's left in the 78-88 era NBA if you take out the Dream Team? The overall talent level was lower in the 70's and 80's, and that's even with the benefit of having a more condensed talent pool.

LOL, that is the weakest argument maybe I have ever seen you do.  Keep throwing stuff up there and maybe if you do enough something will have merit.   There were more All Americans in the league in the past, because there were less teams.   Also, I think more teams had a star, Wilkins was not on one of the Big NBA teams back then and he would have owned today.  Jack Sigma, would be a terrific post nowadays.  I could go on and on.

You really think today is better than these guys?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1338152-legends-of-the-nba-25-best-players-of-the-80s/page/2

Note how many of these fall in this era as opposed to the 80s

http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/11/best-all-around-nba-players/hakeem-olajuwon

Google 100 Greatest NBA players and you won't find as many today as in 78-88 era.      Heck, even college ball was better back then.

At the risk of sounding like a condescending jerk, you realize what nostalgia is and how it works, particularly as it relates to something like the NBA, right?* And the point has never been that the stars were greater or worse in a given era. Stop acting like I'm saying that, or at least take your head out of your waste storage unit and actually read my posts please.

The point is that the average player is better now than ever before. The talent pool is deeper, the scouting is more thorough, the game has evolved, so on and so forth. You can say that the '86 Celtics are the greatest team ever, and I won't argue, but they're certainly the exception that proves the rule, and not any sort of standard for a league average.


*If you don't, check out the NBA's 50 Greatest Players Ever list they commissioned back in 1996-97. How many of those selections look positively quaint?

wait wait wait......so....without getting into fancy math terms like median or mean or standard deviation or something are you saying if you took like a .500 team (probably an 8 seed or so) from the 80s and a .500 team from now...the one from now would win?

I guess that forgives the part where tanking may be more rampant now, but you know what I mean.

In 85/86, the 8th seed in the East was 30-52 and the 8th seed in the West was 35-47.  That was the year Jordan only played in 18 games and thus the Bulls probably would have been a bit better, but their starting lineup in the playoffs was Orlando Woolridge, Jordan, Charles Oakley, Dave Corzine and Kyle Macy.  Oakley was a rookie that year.  The Spurs the 8th seed in the West had a playoff starting 5 of Wes Mathews, Mike Mitchell, David Greenwood, Alvin Robertson, and Artis Gilmore.  Gilmore was 36 and nearing retirement. 

The 8th seeds last year were the 38 win Hawks (without Horford) and the 49 win Mavericks.  You tell me, who would you favor in all those series (now granted the Bulls with Jordan were a better team than without him, but Jordan was just coming back and didn't have a whole lot else to work with).  Now granted the 8th seeds in 85-86 were closer to the bottom than the 8th seeds today, but a 49 win team would have been the 5th seed in the East and 3rd seed in the West in 85-86.  In fact only 10 of the 23 teams were above .500 in 85-86 (43.48%) and 6 teams below .500 made the playoffs.  In contrast, last year more than half the league was above .500 (16 of the 30 teams). 

By any real measurable the league is better today than in the 80's.  There is more depth and more quality players across the league despite there being more teams.