What's our cap situation looking like?

[ssspence]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

[Irish Stew]

We have about $46 million dollars committed for next season, if we lose Green that number goes to about $37 million (presuming not taking any salaries on for next season).  Figure about a $3.4 million dollar contract for our first and about $2.1 for the Clippers pick so we have about $45 million committed without Green and about $54 committed with Green on the roster (both of these numbers take into account second rounders and minimum salary players to fill the roster which the CBA requires).  The projected salary cap is $66.5 million with the tax level being $81 million in 2015-16.

I have our cap number closer to $42 million under the assumption that both Nelson and Green will either opt out or be moved for expiring contracts. It's probably irrelevant since this free agent class is weak and the real prizes like MGasol and Butler probably wouldn't sign with this current train wreck of a NBA franchise even if we overpay them up to the max(we should still try of course). I think Ainge is pointing more towards 2016 when Wallace is off the books and the free agent class is deeper. I would love to move Bradley's contract because he has been a disappointment to me but Ainge is unlikely to do that and I'm not even sure if there is any interest in him anyway. That would save another $8 million against the cap and I believe that Young is our long term answer at the 2.

This free agent class isn't that bad, is it?  http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

I know most of the guys aren't going anywhere, but there's some solid players potentially available.

The Bradley thing kind of messes with us.  Even if we somehow find takers for Green/Jameer and take back expirings... even if we use the stretch provision on Wallace and take a cap hit of 3.3 mil over the next 3 seasons.... we're still only looking at like 28 mil in total cap space, right?   

If max deals are 18 mil, that's not going to be enough to lure two max players (like Rondo and Gasol, for instance)

However... if we dump Bradley for an expiring and free up another 8 mil in cap space... two max players would be possible, I guess.

If two $18 million dollar players wanted to come here as a tandem, MGasol and Butler, for example, our roster could probably be heavily massaged to get this done. If we use the higher cap number of $45 million with Green gone, we would first trade Nelson before the trade deadline for a useless expiring contract to a contender. We could stretch Wallace. We could attach as many draft choices  as we need to in order to trade Bradley for a useless expiring contract ( it may actually not require any if we are lucky) before the trade deadline. We could even move Turner's reasonable $3 million contract to a contender for an expiring contract. By my rough calculations that would give us over $40 million in cap space. Our problem is not really cap space but finding high quality players who would actually want to come here.

[saltlover]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

I guess?  I'm a little unclear as to the specifics of your question.  Based on the salary committed to next summer, the Celtics are currently under the cap by an amount larger than their trade exceptions, after including cap holds for their draft picks, but before including cap holds for players with expiring contracts currently on the roster.  So if the Celtics want to sign a free agent for $13 million or less, they can either a) renounce some players' Bird rights and sign said free agent directly, or b) keep the Bird rights to their expirings and work out a sign-and-trade with the player's original team without sending back any salary (which makes a trade a heck of a lot easier).  So, for example, if we want to keep Jeff Green and agree with Greg Monroe to a deal starting at $13 mil next summer, we can do that using the trade exception, and get one step closer to having a team represented entireley by David Falk.

There's no real reason to preserve the trade exception, since cap space is better (more versatile and doesn't expire next December 19th).  The trade exception's primary value next summer, based on our current roster, is allowing us to pursue a major, but below max, free agent while keeping some of our own free agents.

[BleedGreen1989]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

I guess?  I'm a little unclear as to the specifics of your question.  Based on the salary committed to next summer, the Celtics are currently under the cap by an amount larger than their trade exceptions, after including cap holds for their draft picks, but before including cap holds for players with expiring contracts currently on the roster.  So if the Celtics want to sign a free agent for $13 million or less, they can either a) renounce some players' Bird rights and sign said free agent directly, or b) keep the Bird rights to their expirings and work out a sign-and-trade with the player's original team without sending back any salary (which makes a trade a heck of a lot easier).  So, for example, if we want to keep Jeff Green and agree with Greg Monroe to a deal starting at $13 mil next summer, we can do that using the trade exception, and get one step closer to having a team represented entireley by David Falk.

There's no real reason to preserve the trade exception, since cap space is better (more versatile and doesn't expire next December 19th).  The trade exception's primary value next summer, based on our current roster, is allowing us to pursue a major, but below max, free agent while keeping some of our own free agents.

lol TP

[wdleehi]

Still no need to do anything with Wallace.



The Celtics still in need of a player that would attract top players.  FA cap space is only going to add overpayed good players, no real stars at this point.


Trades and the draft is the key for this teams near future.  If they can put an attractive base together in the next two season, then Wallace and the cap room created may come into play. 

[ssspence]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

I guess?  I'm a little unclear as to the specifics of your question.  Based on the salary committed to next summer, the Celtics are currently under the cap by an amount larger than their trade exceptions, after including cap holds for their draft picks, but before including cap holds for players with expiring contracts currently on the roster.  So if the Celtics want to sign a free agent for $13 million or less, they can either a) renounce some players' Bird rights and sign said free agent directly, or b) keep the Bird rights to their expirings and work out a sign-and-trade with the player's original team without sending back any salary (which makes a trade a heck of a lot easier).  So, for example, if we want to keep Jeff Green and agree with Greg Monroe to a deal starting at $13 mil next summer, we can do that using the trade exception, and get one step closer to having a team represented entireley by David Falk.

There's no real reason to preserve the trade exception, since cap space is better (more versatile and doesn't expire next December 19th).  The trade exception's primary value next summer, based on our current roster, is allowing us to pursue a major, but below max, free agent while keeping some of our own free agents.

I'm saying: this summer, if the Cs wanted to trade for a highly paid player using the Rondo TPE, AND sign a player to a max contract, I believe they'd have to do so in the manner i suggested, because acquiring the traded player would eat cap space, but the Cs could use the TPE to go over the cap.

Make-believe example: let's say Derick Favors and Goran Dragic are best friends (they're not -- it doesn't matter, neither do the players specifically). Ainge goes to Utah and convinces them to trade Favors for 3 1sts (or 1, or 2 -- doesn't matter) with an eye towards that being an attraction to Dragic, who he wants to sign. He then goes and tells GD: "we have a trade in place to acquire your pal Favors. will you sign a max deal with us now?" (or for 10mil a year, 14 mill a year, doesn't matter). Dragic says: "Sure, now I will." Ainge then signs Dragic officially with the cap space, before completing the deal with Favors, which takes them over the cap.... and at the end of the day, gets both.

Seems to me this is the only way to make meaningful use of the TPE, considering the cap space would allow the Cs to acquire that same player anyway (say, Favors) without taking back salary. Agreed?

[saltlover]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

I guess?  I'm a little unclear as to the specifics of your question.  Based on the salary committed to next summer, the Celtics are currently under the cap by an amount larger than their trade exceptions, after including cap holds for their draft picks, but before including cap holds for players with expiring contracts currently on the roster.  So if the Celtics want to sign a free agent for $13 million or less, they can either a) renounce some players' Bird rights and sign said free agent directly, or b) keep the Bird rights to their expirings and work out a sign-and-trade with the player's original team without sending back any salary (which makes a trade a heck of a lot easier).  So, for example, if we want to keep Jeff Green and agree with Greg Monroe to a deal starting at $13 mil next summer, we can do that using the trade exception, and get one step closer to having a team represented entireley by David Falk.

There's no real reason to preserve the trade exception, since cap space is better (more versatile and doesn't expire next December 19th).  The trade exception's primary value next summer, based on our current roster, is allowing us to pursue a major, but below max, free agent while keeping some of our own free agents.

I'm saying: this summer, if the Cs wanted to trade for a highly paid player using the Rondo TPE, AND sign a player to a max contract, I believe they'd have to do so in the manner i suggested, because acquiring the traded player would eat cap space, but the Cs could use the TPE to go over the cap.

Make-believe example: let's say Derick Favors and Goran Dragic are best friends (they're not -- it doesn't matter, neither do the players specifically). Ainge goes to Utah and convinces them to trade Favors or 3 1sts (or 1, or 2 -- doesn't matter) with an eye towards that being an attraction to Dragic, who he wants to sign. He then goes and tells GD: "we have a trade in place to acquire your pal Favors. will you sign a max deal with us now?" (or for 10mil a year, 14 mill a year, doesn't matter). Dragic says: "Sure, now I will." Ainge then signs Dragic officially with the cap space, before completing the deal with Favors, which takes them over the cap.... and at the end of the day, gets both.

Seems to me this is the only way to make meaningful use of the TPE, considering the cap space would allow the Cs to acquire that same player anyway (say, Favors) without taking back salary. Agreed?

I think I get it.  And I'll try to refer back to my previous response.  The TPE takes up salary cap room equal to it's amount.  Suppose that next summer we had 10 players signed at $42 million (including our 1st round draft picks).  The cap is $67 million.  We renounce all of our free agents.  To continue with your example, could we sign Dragic to a $15 million contract, taking us to $57 million in salary, and then use the TPE to get Favors at $12 million?  No, because the TPE takes up cap room, so that when we signed Dragic while still having the $13 million TPE we really had a cap number of $55 million ($42 million salary plus $13 million TPE), leaving us with only $12 million to sign Dragic, and not the $15 million we've promised him.

Since the TPE takes up cap space at a dollar-for-dollar ratio, and the TPE can't be increased by any meaningful amount (by combining it with other salaries, multiplying it by 125%, etc.), it can't be used to dip under the cap to signs free agent with cap room and then exceed it with a trade.  Since the TPE can only be used for trades, as opposed to cap room which can be used for both trades and outright signings, it is of less utility, and there is no practical reason to keep it in place of cap room.  So to repeat my earlier point, the only way the TPE is useful to us next summer is if either a) we want to preserve the Bird rights of our own free agents, or b) our salary obligations change between now and next summer (which is why i think Danny shouldn't be adverse to taking on future salary for our expirings if he wants better picks in return).

[jambr380]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

I guess?  I'm a little unclear as to the specifics of your question.  Based on the salary committed to next summer, the Celtics are currently under the cap by an amount larger than their trade exceptions, after including cap holds for their draft picks, but before including cap holds for players with expiring contracts currently on the roster.  So if the Celtics want to sign a free agent for $13 million or less, they can either a) renounce some players' Bird rights and sign said free agent directly, or b) keep the Bird rights to their expirings and work out a sign-and-trade with the player's original team without sending back any salary (which makes a trade a heck of a lot easier).  So, for example, if we want to keep Jeff Green and agree with Greg Monroe to a deal starting at $13 mil next summer, we can do that using the trade exception, and get one step closer to having a team represented entireley by David Falk.

There's no real reason to preserve the trade exception, since cap space is better (more versatile and doesn't expire next December 19th).  The trade exception's primary value next summer, based on our current roster, is allowing us to pursue a major, but below max, free agent while keeping some of our own free agents.

I'm saying: this summer, if the Cs wanted to trade for a highly paid player using the Rondo TPE, AND sign a player to a max contract, I believe they'd have to do so in the manner i suggested, because acquiring the traded player would eat cap space, but the Cs could use the TPE to go over the cap.

Make-believe example: let's say Derick Favors and Goran Dragic are best friends (they're not -- it doesn't matter, neither do the players specifically). Ainge goes to Utah and convinces them to trade Favors or 3 1sts (or 1, or 2 -- doesn't matter) with an eye towards that being an attraction to Dragic, who he wants to sign. He then goes and tells GD: "we have a trade in place to acquire your pal Favors. will you sign a max deal with us now?" (or for 10mil a year, 14 mill a year, doesn't matter). Dragic says: "Sure, now I will." Ainge then signs Dragic officially with the cap space, before completing the deal with Favors, which takes them over the cap.... and at the end of the day, gets both.

Seems to me this is the only way to make meaningful use of the TPE, considering the cap space would allow the Cs to acquire that same player anyway (say, Favors) without taking back salary. Agreed?

I think I get it.  And I'll try to refer back to my previous response.  The TPE takes up salary cap room equal to it's amount.  Suppose that next summer we had 10 players signed at $42 million (including our 1st round draft picks).  The cap is $67 million.  We renounce all of our free agents.  To continue with your example, could we sign Dragic to a $15 million contract, taking us to $57 million in salary, and then use the TPE to get Favors at $12 million?  No, because the TPE takes up cap room, so that when we signed Dragic while still having the $13 million TPE we really had a cap number of $55 million ($42 million salary plus $13 million TPE), leaving us with only $12 million to sign Dragic, and not the $15 million we've promised him.

Since the TPE takes up cap space at a dollar-for-dollar ratio, and the TPE can't be increased by any meaningful amount (by combining it with other salaries, multiplying it by 125%, etc.), it can't be used to dip under the cap to signs free agent with cap room and then exceed it with a trade.  Since the TPE can only be used for trades, as opposed to cap room which can be used for both trades and outright signings, it is of less utility, and there is no practical reason to keep it in place of cap room.  So to repeat my earlier point, the only way the TPE is useful to us next summer is if either a) we want to preserve the Bird rights of our own free agents, or b) our salary obligations change between now and next summer (which is why i think Danny shouldn't be adverse to taking on future salary for our expirings if he wants better picks in return).

This is where we have been in total agreement. We are able to preserve our TPE, will have multiple 2015-16 expirings to work with, and will further increase our draft pick collection. This benefits us much more than simply having cap space to work with THIS summer (although I do agree if nothing continues to happen through next year, then cap space would probably be the way to go).

[ssspence]

Could someone please clarify the use of the Rondo TPE vis-a-vis our cap space? As I understand it, the Cs can't really use it before using their cap space, or that space is reduced by $13mil.

So, let's say they want to attract a FA by using the TPE to acquire a good veteran. If they we're going to do so using the TPE for a trade, they'd want to agree to the trade in principle; inform the max player they may want to sign about such trade to entice him to come to Boston; sign that deal with said FA; THEN make the trade for the player with the TPE so it allows them to exceed the cap -- correct?

Thanks.

I guess?  I'm a little unclear as to the specifics of your question.  Based on the salary committed to next summer, the Celtics are currently under the cap by an amount larger than their trade exceptions, after including cap holds for their draft picks, but before including cap holds for players with expiring contracts currently on the roster.  So if the Celtics want to sign a free agent for $13 million or less, they can either a) renounce some players' Bird rights and sign said free agent directly, or b) keep the Bird rights to their expirings and work out a sign-and-trade with the player's original team without sending back any salary (which makes a trade a heck of a lot easier).  So, for example, if we want to keep Jeff Green and agree with Greg Monroe to a deal starting at $13 mil next summer, we can do that using the trade exception, and get one step closer to having a team represented entireley by David Falk.

There's no real reason to preserve the trade exception, since cap space is better (more versatile and doesn't expire next December 19th).  The trade exception's primary value next summer, based on our current roster, is allowing us to pursue a major, but below max, free agent while keeping some of our own free agents.

I'm saying: this summer, if the Cs wanted to trade for a highly paid player using the Rondo TPE, AND sign a player to a max contract, I believe they'd have to do so in the manner i suggested, because acquiring the traded player would eat cap space, but the Cs could use the TPE to go over the cap.

Make-believe example: let's say Derick Favors and Goran Dragic are best friends (they're not -- it doesn't matter, neither do the players specifically). Ainge goes to Utah and convinces them to trade Favors or 3 1sts (or 1, or 2 -- doesn't matter) with an eye towards that being an attraction to Dragic, who he wants to sign. He then goes and tells GD: "we have a trade in place to acquire your pal Favors. will you sign a max deal with us now?" (or for 10mil a year, 14 mill a year, doesn't matter). Dragic says: "Sure, now I will." Ainge then signs Dragic officially with the cap space, before completing the deal with Favors, which takes them over the cap.... and at the end of the day, gets both.

Seems to me this is the only way to make meaningful use of the TPE, considering the cap space would allow the Cs to acquire that same player anyway (say, Favors) without taking back salary. Agreed?

I think I get it.  And I'll try to refer back to my previous response.  The TPE takes up salary cap room equal to it's amount.  Suppose that next summer we had 10 players signed at $42 million (including our 1st round draft picks).  The cap is $67 million.  We renounce all of our free agents.  To continue with your example, could we sign Dragic to a $15 million contract, taking us to $57 million in salary, and then use the TPE to get Favors at $12 million?  No, because the TPE takes up cap room, so that when we signed Dragic while still having the $13 million TPE we really had a cap number of $55 million ($42 million salary plus $13 million TPE), leaving us with only $12 million to sign Dragic, and not the $15 million we've promised him.

Since the TPE takes up cap space at a dollar-for-dollar ratio, and the TPE can't be increased by any meaningful amount (by combining it with other salaries, multiplying it by 125%, etc.), it can't be used to dip under the cap to signs free agent with cap room and then exceed it with a trade.  Since the TPE can only be used for trades, as opposed to cap room which can be used for both trades and outright signings, it is of less utility, and there is no practical reason to keep it in place of cap room.  So to repeat my earlier point, the only way the TPE is useful to us next summer is if either a) we want to preserve the Bird rights of our own free agents, or b) our salary obligations change between now and next summer (which is why i think Danny shouldn't be adverse to taking on future salary for our expirings if he wants better picks in return).

Thanks. I'm now realizing this info is staring me straight in the face on the Larry Coon FAQ. Apologies.

[kozlodoev]

To acquire a player with the TPE means to do a sign-and-trade. To do a sign-and-trade, you need to be under the cap, no?

I thought that  the benefit of the TPE was that you can acquire a player that's been just signed for more than you can offer him (e.g. someone you don't have the Bird rights to). Not sure you can go over the cap using the TPE -- or was that the luxury tax line?

[LooseCannon]

To acquire a player with the TPE means to do a sign-and-trade. To do a sign-and-trade, you need to be under the cap, no?

You can acquire a player already under contract using a TPE.  One use of the TPE would be to acquire a contract from a team looking to clear cap space to sign a free agent.

A sign-and-trade hard-caps you at the apron.

[hwangjini_1]

To acquire a player with the TPE means to do a sign-and-trade. To do a sign-and-trade, you need to be under the cap, no?

You can acquire a player already under contract using a TPE.  One use of the TPE would be to acquire a contract from a team looking to clear cap space to sign a free agent.

A sign-and-trade hard-caps you at the apron.

thanks. and just to confirm in my mind, this example you cite is exactly what ainge did with cleveland to acquire zeller. correct?

so hypothetically, he could also do this again using the rondo tpe.

[LarBrd33]

To acquire a player with the TPE means to do a sign-and-trade. To do a sign-and-trade, you need to be under the cap, no?

You can acquire a player already under contract using a TPE.  One use of the TPE would be to acquire a contract from a team looking to clear cap space to sign a free agent.

A sign-and-trade hard-caps you at the apron.

thanks. and just to confirm in my mind, this example you cite is exactly what ainge did with cleveland to acquire zeller. correct?

so hypothetically, he could also do this again using the rondo tpe.

The thing is... if we trade Green for an expiring and have something like 21 in potential cap space, we'd probably end up renouncing the TPE.   What good does the TPE do us if we plan on using the 21 mil in cap space?

[saltlover]

To acquire a player with the TPE means to do a sign-and-trade. To do a sign-and-trade, you need to be under the cap, no?

You can acquire a player already under contract using a TPE.  One use of the TPE would be to acquire a contract from a team looking to clear cap space to sign a free agent.

A sign-and-trade hard-caps you at the apron.

thanks. and just to confirm in my mind, this example you cite is exactly what ainge did with cleveland to acquire zeller. correct?

so hypothetically, he could also do this again using the rondo tpe.

Yes, exactly, although if we are under the cap by more than the trade exception, he can use cap space for this purpose instead.

[kozlodoev]

To acquire a player with the TPE means to do a sign-and-trade. To do a sign-and-trade, you need to be under the cap, no?

You can acquire a player already under contract using a TPE.  One use of the TPE would be to acquire a contract from a team looking to clear cap space to sign a free agent.

A sign-and-trade hard-caps you at the apron.

thanks. and just to confirm in my mind, this example you cite is exactly what ainge did with cleveland to acquire zeller. correct?

so hypothetically, he could also do this again using the rondo tpe.

The thing is... if we trade Green for an expiring and have something like 21 in potential cap space, we'd probably end up renouncing the TPE.   What good does the TPE do us if we plan on using the 21 mil in cap space?

Depends. Is the TPE an actual cap hold?