Rondo's ability to win games diminishes significantly without the help of stars

[GreenFaith1819]

I'm not making an unclear comparison. The only comparison I made was to Paul Pierce. You are the one who brought up all of these PGs and forced me to confirm my theory, which I did to my satisfaction.

If you added Rondo to Indiana, where would they be? 7th, 8th seed at best?

Now ask yourself how CP3 could take a team whose second and third best players are at best slightly better than West/Hibbert to a second seed in a tough Western Conference and a loss in seven games to the Spurs.

With a fully healthy Indiana team (PG, West and Hibbert) they are in the Finals.

Again - surround a good PG with talent and they win.

No, the current Indiana team. Without George. Rondo/West/Hibbert. They're not any better than Atlanta is. If the '07-08 Hornets team (CP3, West, Chandler) was playing in today's Eastern Conference they might be the number one seed.

And if you place CP3 with the current Indy team they're no better than ATL.

[TheFlex]

I'm not making an unclear comparison. The only comparison I made was to Paul Pierce. You are the one who brought up all of these PGs and forced me to confirm my theory, which I did to my satisfaction.

If you added Rondo to Indiana, where would they be? 7th, 8th seed at best?

Now ask yourself how CP3 could take a team whose second and third best players are at best slightly better than West/Hibbert to a second seed in a tough Western Conference and a loss in seven games to the Spurs.

With a fully healthy Indiana team (PG, West and Hibbert) they are in the Finals.

Again - surround a good PG with talent and they win.

No, the current Indiana team. Without George. Rondo/West/Hibbert. They're not any better than Atlanta is. If the '07-08 Hornets team (CP3, West, Chandler) was playing in today's Eastern Conference they might be the number one seed.

And if you place CP3 with the current Indy team they're no better than ATL.

Lol.

[GreenFaith1819]

I'm not making an unclear comparison. The only comparison I made was to Paul Pierce. You are the one who brought up all of these PGs and forced me to confirm my theory, which I did to my satisfaction.

If you added Rondo to Indiana, where would they be? 7th, 8th seed at best?

Now ask yourself how CP3 could take a team whose second and third best players are at best slightly better than West/Hibbert to a second seed in a tough Western Conference and a loss in seven games to the Spurs.

With a fully healthy Indiana team (PG, West and Hibbert) they are in the Finals.

Again - surround a good PG with talent and they win.

No, the current Indiana team. Without George. Rondo/West/Hibbert. They're not any better than Atlanta is. If the '07-08 Hornets team (CP3, West, Chandler) was playing in today's Eastern Conference they might be the number one seed.

And if you place CP3 with the current Indy team they're no better than ATL.

Lol.

I'm laughing out loud at yours and a few others' Rondo dislike on here, too.

[GreenFaith1819]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

[TheFlex]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

Let me ask you, did you read my analysis in the OP or did you just see the title and assume I was saying that Rondo isn't a star because he needs good teammates to win?

[GreenFaith1819]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

Let me ask you, did you read my analysis in the OP or did you just see the title and assume I was saying that Rondo isn't a star because he needs good teammates to win?

FLex, I read your analysis and promptly filed in under "Wait until Rajon Rondo gets more seasoned talent in BOS", to be honest.

Number crunching and stat-posting does nothing for me with this roster. All I know is that Zeller is improving, Jeff Green is posting career numbers scoring-wise (19th or 20th in the league) and Sullinger is improving.

Rondo should take some credit for that.

I think that at the end of the day, if we chose to look hard enough, we'd find fault with ALL the stars...not just Rondo.

[TheFlex]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

Let me ask you, did you read my analysis in the OP or did you just see the title and assume I was saying that Rondo isn't a star because he needs good teammates to win?

FLex, I read your analysis and promptly filed in under "Wait until Rajon Rondo gets more seasoned talent in BOS", to be honest.

Number crunching and stat-posting does nothing for me with this roster. All I know is that Zeller is improving, Jeff Green is posting career numbers scoring-wise (19th or 20th in the league) and Sullinger is improving.

Rondo should take some credit for that.

I think that at the end of the day, if we chose to look hard enough, we'd find fault with ALL the stars...not just Rondo.

You'll find I don't disagree with anything you just posted.

My claim was that the difference between Rondo's WS/48 on good teams vs. on bad teams seems to be much larger than the difference between past stars' WS/48 on good teams vs. on bad teams.

[indeedproceed]

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

I thought to myself, "There have to be bad tony threads", but I looked on grizzly bear blues and 3shades of blue (the two biggest Griz blogs), and didn't find any posts. Maybe its there in the comments, but there really aren't any trick or treat tony threads.

[Rondo9]

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

I thought to myself, "There have to be bad tony threads", but I looked on grizzly bear blues and 3shades of blue (the two biggest Griz blogs), and didn't find any posts. Maybe its there in the comments, but there really aren't any trick or treat tony threads.

Maybe if Rondo left he'll finally find the respect he's been lacking on this site. 

[GreenFaith1819]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

Let me ask you, did you read my analysis in the OP or did you just see the title and assume I was saying that Rondo isn't a star because he needs good teammates to win?

FLex, I read your analysis and promptly filed in under "Wait until Rajon Rondo gets more seasoned talent in BOS", to be honest.

Number crunching and stat-posting does nothing for me with this roster. All I know is that Zeller is improving, Jeff Green is posting career numbers scoring-wise (19th or 20th in the league) and Sullinger is improving.

Rondo should take some credit for that.

I think that at the end of the day, if we chose to look hard enough, we'd find fault with ALL the stars...not just Rondo.

You'll find I don't disagree with anything you just posted.

My claim was that the difference between Rondo's WS/48 on good teams vs. on bad teams seems to be much larger than the difference between past stars' WS/48 on good teams vs. on bad teams.

But while I'm not disputing your post, I just don't put much stock in numbers or stats....they are important and good to know, but can be misleading.

Look at OKC. The one piece that they added in 10-11 to put them over the top and get them past LA was none other than Kendrick Perkins, the least talented player on their team at the time....or, one of those players whose importance to a team just can't be quantified.

Stats/WS, etc - just don't tell the whole story. At least to me.

I'd rather give Rondo another 2-3 years before I judge him...same with Stevens. Still too much flux with this roster.

[Beat LA]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

I can't believe that anyone would ever miss Tony Allen, to be honest, and I haven't missed him one bit.  There was a reason for all of those Jekyll and Hide threads concerning his play - you never knew what was going to happen out there.  To me, he was a completely schizophrenic and limited player.  All I can say is that I cringed every time he tried to dribble, pass, or especially shoot.  God, his form isn't that bad, but his release is so violent that it's amazing he's ever made one, lol .

As for Rondo, I want him here, but I also know that Ainge will likely trade him for peanuts and a terrible contract, to boot, so I think that we should all just enjoy him while he's still here.  I had forgotten about the hand industry - was it to his shooting hand?  Say what you will for the guy, but he's making everyone look better than they really are, for which Danny should thank him, lol, because that makes it easier for Ainge to move some of them (probably half the roster by the trade deadline, per team policy, lol ). 

I don't think I'll ever understand the level of hatred that's directed at him on here, seemingly by the hour.  Ugh.  The things he does out there are not skills that can be taught, especially when it comes to passing, instincts, and his overall intelligence.  Try to find another point guard who can make incredible left handed bounce passes from half court right by 1-2 defenders with pinpoint accuracy.  Try to find another 6'1" point guard who averages 7.6 rpg, go find me another guy who has been the best player in a series with Derrick Rose and Lebron James, not to mention Dwyane Wade, and find me another point guard who could lead the league in assists with the serious lack of talent that we have on this team.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.

Btw, I've heard of win-shares as a stat, but I don't know how they're calculated, how they work, or what they attempt to show, so feel free to enlighten me, lol . 

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

I can't believe that anyone would ever miss Tony Allen, to be honest, and I haven't missed him one bit.  There was a reason for all of those Jekyll and Hide threads concerning his play - you never knew what was going to happen out there.  To me, he was a completely schizophrenic and limited player.  All I can say is that I cringed every time he tried to dribble, pass, or especially shoot.  God, his form isn't that bad, but his release is so violent that it's amazing he's ever made one, lol .

As for Rondo, I want him here, but I also know that Ainge will likely trade him for peanuts and a terrible contract, to boot, so I think that we should all just enjoy him while he's still here.  I had forgotten about the hand industry - was it to his shooting hand?  Say what you will for the guy, but he's making everyone look better than they really are, for which Danny should thank him, lol, because that makes it easier for Ainge to move some of them (probably half the roster by the trade deadline, per team policy, lol ). 

I don't think I'll ever understand the level of hatred that's directed at him on here, seemingly by the hour.  Ugh.  The things he does out there are not skills that can be taught, especially when it comes to passing, instincts, and his overall intelligence.  Try to find another point guard who can make incredible left handed bounce passes from half court right by 1-2 defenders with pinpoint accuracy.  Try to find another 6'1" point guard who averages 7.6 rpg, go find me another guy who has been the best player in a series with Derrick Rose and Lebron James, not to mention Dwyane Wade, and find me another point guard who could lead the league in assists with the serious lack of talent that we have on this team.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.

Btw, I've heard of win-shares as a stat, but I don't know how they're calculated, how they work, or what they attempt to show, so feel free to enlighten me, lol .

I would bet (probably win) that people who cried for TA to be sent packing are now in threads saying they wish he was still here. People probably saying if we had him instead of "name" we would have done this or that but were his main detractors. It happens with all of these guys when they play for us, they don't get appreciation. Look at people talking about Lee, Hump, Bayless, PERK, and others but now "if we only kept..."

[TheFlex]

The Tony Allen dislike Threads on here reached a crescendo as high as Mount Everest while he was in BOS.

There were so many "Good Tony/Bad Tony" threads around here.

Once he finally left BOS and sated the minds of his detractors, he became a perennial 1st team defender, team leader, and winner.

No Bad Tony threads on MEM forums I bet.

Some here may very well get their wish to see our "Flawed PG" thrive elsewhere. I hope I don't. I want him in BOS.

I can't believe that anyone would ever miss Tony Allen, to be honest, and I haven't missed him one bit.  There was a reason for all of those Jekyll and Hide threads concerning his play - you never knew what was going to happen out there.  To me, he was a completely schizophrenic and limited player.  All I can say is that I cringed every time he tried to dribble, pass, or especially shoot.  God, his form isn't that bad, but his release is so violent that it's amazing he's ever made one, lol .

As for Rondo, I want him here, but I also know that Ainge will likely trade him for peanuts and a terrible contract, to boot, so I think that we should all just enjoy him while he's still here.  I had forgotten about the hand industry - was it to his shooting hand?  Say what you will for the guy, but he's making everyone look better than they really are, for which Danny should thank him, lol, because that makes it easier for Ainge to move some of them (probably half the roster by the trade deadline, per team policy, lol ). 

I don't think I'll ever understand the level of hatred that's directed at him on here, seemingly by the hour.  Ugh.  The things he does out there are not skills that can be taught, especially when it comes to passing, instincts, and his overall intelligence.  Try to find another point guard who can make incredible left handed bounce passes from half court right by 1-2 defenders with pinpoint accuracy.  Try to find another 6'1" point guard who averages 7.6 rpg, go find me another guy who has been the best player in a series with Derrick Rose and Lebron James, not to mention Dwyane Wade, and find me another point guard who could lead the league in assists with the serious lack of talent that we have on this team.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.

Btw, I've heard of win-shares as a stat, but I don't know how they're calculated, how they work, or what they attempt to show, so feel free to enlighten me, lol .

No confidence in Danny's trading ability?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

[BDeCosta26]

Of course he needs very good players, "stars" if you will, to be a great player. His whole game, the things that make Rondo great like his insane court vision, basketball IQ and ability to set up teammates would be best served if those teammates were of the highest talent level. We've seen what Rondo can do with top notch talent. If we can get another star player or two in here in the next two years you want to keep him. I'll never understand why people heap so much hate on Rondo, Bradley, Stevens. We have a very young roster with a lot of developing talent. All things considered I think we're heading the right direction. Why do people expect us not to lose most of these games. Like Rondo should be scoring 20 a night and taking the ball in ISO for the last shot. That's not his game, he's a star because he does so many other things well, but he's just not gonna be able to do that.

People just need to breathe, accept that losing is part of the process, and enjoy watching our young talent grow. Danny has done well with this team over the years. Have faith.

[inverselock]

But while I'm not disputing your post, I just don't put much stock in numbers or stats....they are important and good to know, but can be misleading.

Look at OKC. The one piece that they added in 10-11 to put them over the top and get them past LA was none other than Kendrick Perkins, the least talented player on their team at the time....or, one of those players whose importance to a team just can't be quantified.

Stats/WS, etc - just don't tell the whole story. At least to me.

I'd rather give Rondo another 2-3 years before I judge him...same with Stevens. Still too much flux with this roster.

09-10 won 50 games.  55 the following.

Their top players and coach were still developing.

Durant 4th year.
Westbrook 3rd year.
Harden 2nd year.
Ibaka 2nd year.

Brooks 3rd year.

I think it was a lot more the Perkins. 

They didn't play LA 10-11.