If DA was trying to win now and keep Rondo, shouldn't we be better than we are?

[TheFlex]

Asik went for a pretty good first, but we have plenty of those.

Again, it was for a pick that could finish anywhere between #4 overall and #19. If protection triggers, the pick rolls over again to the next year, under the same protections.

So, I disagree there's a pick that could be as valuable in the Celtics larder that should have been put up for grabs. You do it if you have a top-5 player under contract for the forseeable future, not when you're where the Celtics are right now.

Would you do Oly and a BKN 1st for Asik? Would that offer have trumped NOP's? Is there a fair offer we could have proposed for Asik?

Same questions apply to Affalo.

If we make those deals, are we a playoff team?

If we make those deals, do we completely mortgage our future?

If we make those deals, is Rondo likely to return?

If we make those deals, is Boston a more attractive destination to Aldridge/Gasol?

[wiley]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits.

+1

+2

+3

Rondo may stay or he may go, but there was no way in heck for the C's to put a contender on the floor this year.  Zero chance.  So why throw away a bunch of assets for middling players.
I think Ainge will remain open to adding to Rondo and open to trading him.  Both options still
firmly on the table.

Again, no disagreement at all from me.

That's pretty much my point. If DA believed in Rondo as a superstar player, wouldn't he have rather been a 5-8 seed as Rondo entered FA than a lotto team?

As I said earlier, if an opportunity falls in his lap that allows him to keep Rondo and become a contender, obviously he would do it. He doesn't seem to be aggressively pursuing that course of action, and I would hardly characterize Young-for-Afflalo and Oly+BKN 1st-for-Asik as "throwing away assets." Those are fair trades.

But they are not trades that make us a contender.  I would say that when Danny pulls the trigger on some big trades, we will be contenders on paper at that moment (like the trade for KG and Ray but less dramatic than that...hard to equal that one).  That is, unless we trade Rondo in a move that continues the rebuild. 

There is nothing in the trades you just mentioned that definitely make Boston more attractive than what it can be with A. better trades and/or B. more development of our current young players. and/or C.  The addition of a high draft pick by not becoming an 8th seed this year.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Asik went for a pretty good first, but we have plenty of those.

Again, it was for a pick that could finish anywhere between #4 overall and #19. If protection triggers, the pick rolls over again to the next year, under the same protections.

So, I disagree there's a pick that could be as valuable in the Celtics larder that should have been put up for grabs. You do it if you have a top-5 player under contract for the forseeable future, not when you're where the Celtics are right now.

I don't know what Houston asked but I really thought Danny should have went with it (IIRC it was Lee and a 1st right?).

With Asik on the helm, we maybe a .500 team. We have shown that offensively when we are on, we can destroy teams. If we had an anchor and a rim protector like Omer, we're probably looking at a much better record than what we have.

[TheFlex]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits.

+1

+2

+3

Rondo may stay or he may go, but there was no way in heck for the C's to put a contender on the floor this year.  Zero chance.  So why throw away a bunch of assets for middling players.
I think Ainge will remain open to adding to Rondo and open to trading him.  Both options still
firmly on the table.

Again, no disagreement at all from me.

That's pretty much my point. If DA believed in Rondo as a superstar player, wouldn't he have rather been a 5-8 seed as Rondo entered FA than a lotto team?

As I said earlier, if an opportunity falls in his lap that allows him to keep Rondo and become a contender, obviously he would do it. He doesn't seem to be aggressively pursuing that course of action, and I would hardly characterize Young-for-Afflalo and Oly+BKN 1st-for-Asik as "throwing away assets." Those are fair trades.

But they are not trades that make us a contender.  I would say that when Danny pulls the trigger on some big trades, we will be contenders on paper at that moment (like the trade for KG and Ray but less dramatic than that...hard to equal that one).  That is, unless we trade Rondo in a move that continues the rebuild. 

There is nothing in the trades you just mentioned that definitely make Boston more attractive than what it can be with A. better trades and/or B. more development of our current young players. and/or C.  The addition of a high draft pick by not becoming an 8th seed this year.

I completely agree, lol.

edit: Let me put it this way. DA doesn't seem to feel it'll be the end of the world if we lose Rondo for nothing in FA. He's not treating Rondo like the Magic treated Howard by making trades for role players that added a couple of wins to their team.

[saltlover]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits.

DA would hardly have been panicking by nabbing a guy like Afflalo or Asik this summer.

Afflalo went for a late second rounder and Evan Fournier. James Young on his own should have enough to trump that offer.

Firstly, we have different opinions on the value of Evan Fournier.  I'm not convinced I would prefer James Young to him.

Secondly, that trade was made before the draft. Even if Orlando liked James Young more than Fournier, they would not have known Young would be there when it was their turn to pick at 17.

Thirdly, both Afflalo and Asik will be free agents this summer.  Both will likely get raises.  If you think Afflalo and Asik and Asik would put the C's in championship contention, I'll disagree but not question your logic.  But if they don't, you've now given up multiple 1sts for two guys who you either a) let walk, or b) re-sign at the cost of not being able to get a free agent who might help you more (and/or complete a trade for another player who also has a hig salary.)  You could probably make a decent 3-5 seed in the East with that team, but that's probably it's ceiling, and you have much less flexibility to improve it further from there.  You might make a conference final if everything goes right, but more than likely you're a second-round team, or get bounced early if things don't go right.

Players of Afflalo's and Asik's quality are available every year.  This year they'll both be on the free agent markets.  Given what they cost to acquire, it's not unreasonable to have passed on them.

[wdleehi]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits. 

To play devils advocate for a minute, isn't it possible hes could become too patient? By that I mean waste entire seasons being a middle of the road team waiting for the second coming of the KG trade to appear?

While last year wasn't wasted as we acquired Smart and to a lesser degree Young, I do believe we need to make moves eventually, as many posters have better stated than I ever could this roster is mismatched and screams trade incoming.

No, he is building assets. 



He didn't panic and trade Pierce right away.  Celtics built up trade pieces until the trade was there. 


Same idea here.  If the team gets lucky, one of the pieces develops into one of the top level building blocks they need.

[Lucky17]

Asik went for a pretty good first, but we have plenty of those.

Again, it was for a pick that could finish anywhere between #4 overall and #19. If protection triggers, the pick rolls over again to the next year, under the same protections.

So, I disagree there's a pick that could be as valuable in the Celtics larder that should have been put up for grabs. You do it if you have a top-5 player under contract for the forseeable future, not when you're where the Celtics are right now.

Would you do Oly and a BKN 1st for Asik? Would that offer have trumped NOP's? Is there a fair offer we could have proposed for Asik?

Same questions apply to Affalo.

If we make those deals, are we a playoff team?

If we make those deals, do we completely mortgage our future?

If we make those deals, is Rondo likely to return?

If we make those deals, is Boston a more attractive destination to Aldridge/Gasol?

Honestly, I don't think those are strong enough returns on trade assets, or that they move the needle all that much. Afflalo and Asik are nice complementary pieces, but I think the Celtics need to dream bigger. Also, neither are locked up long-term, so you're potentially looking at having little to show for those assets you've given up.

Also, I'm of a particular mindset that Rondo really isn't going anywhere.

[TheFlex]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits.

DA would hardly have been panicking by nabbing a guy like Afflalo or Asik this summer.

Afflalo went for a late second rounder and Evan Fournier. James Young on his own should have enough to trump that offer.

Firstly, we have different opinions on the value of Evan Fournier.  I'm not convinced I would prefer James Young to him.

Secondly, that trade was made before the draft. Even if Orlando liked James Young more than Fournier, they would not have known Young would be there when it was their turn to pick at 17.

Thirdly, both Afflalo and Asik will be free agents this summer.  Both will likely get raises.  If you think Afflalo and Asik and Asik would put the C's in championship contention, I'll disagree but not question your logic.  But if they don't, you've now given up multiple 1sts for two guys who you either a) let walk, or b) re-sign at the cost of not being able to get a free agent who might help you more (and/or complete a trade for another player who also has a hig salary.)  You could probably make a decent 3-5 seed in the East with that team, but that's probably it's ceiling, and you have much less flexibility to improve it further from there.  You might make a conference final if everything goes right, but more than likely you're a second-round team, or get bounced early if things don't go right.

Players of Afflalo's and Asik's quality are available every year.  This year they'll both be on the free agent markets.  Given what they cost to acquire, it's not unreasonable to have passed on them.

I think my point is being wildly misconstrued.

I don't think the trades would make us a contender. I think they would've made us a 5-8 seed without totally mortgaging our future and sent a clear message to Rondo that the front office believes in him as a superstar.

Having not made any of those types of moves, I can only conclude that the front office doesn't feel Rondo is a max-level guy. Looking at similar situations (impending star FA in his prime), teams that feel their guy is a superstar and worth max money typically make Afflalo/Asik deals hoping for a decent seed and a second round playoff run. Teams that feel their guy is a very good but not great player wait patiently for a great player to come along that their guy can play second fiddle to.

Ultimately, there's no reason why DA wouldn't want to keep Rondo at a price he deems fair. But it's clear that the price will be trumped by other teams who have stars to pair with Rondo (NYK, LAL), and nothing indicates that DA is stressed about that reality.

[TheFlex]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits. 

To play devils advocate for a minute, isn't it possible hes could become too patient? By that I mean waste entire seasons being a middle of the road team waiting for the second coming of the KG trade to appear?

While last year wasn't wasted as we acquired Smart and to a lesser degree Young, I do believe we need to make moves eventually, as many posters have better stated than I ever could this roster is mismatched and screams trade incoming.

No, he is building assets. 



He didn't panic and trade Pierce right away.  Celtics built up trade pieces until the trade was there. 


Same idea here.  If the team gets lucky, one of the pieces develops into one of the top level building blocks they need.

Ahh, but the team also frequently made Afflalo/Asik type deals that indicated what they thought of Pierce's ability to be a superstar.

See: Davis, Ricky; Szczerbiak, Wally.

[littleteapot]

Anyone who wants Ainge to build a contending team around Rondo and Green should be p---ed. Last offseason, plenty of legitimate players were dumped or ignored because everyone was enamored by Lebron, Love, Bosh, etc.

I absolutely think we could have had Asik or Afflalo for a great price, but what about Channing Frye?

There are only 2 good reasons to not go after Channing Frye:
1. He's taking time from worse players who you want to develop.
2. You are still trying to stay out of the playoffs and get better draft talent (aka TANK).

What about making the Parsons offer. On that one I doubt Parsons would leave a contender for us, but we could have at least made an offer.

I have no problem with these moves (or absence of moves) because I think development and drafting should still be our goals. But if we get nothing for Green and Rondo, it's a complete waste and an inconsistent strategy.

[Fafnir]

Asik for a great price?

Asik was dealt for a pick that's top 3 protected and bottom 20 for a projected western lottery team. So its between 4 - 19. So based on what we did last year we could be sending a pick of the caliber of Marcus Smart out for Asik.

And Asik is a FA after this year.

[Lucky17]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits.

DA would hardly have been panicking by nabbing a guy like Afflalo or Asik this summer.

Afflalo went for a late second rounder and Evan Fournier. James Young on his own should have enough to trump that offer.

Firstly, we have different opinions on the value of Evan Fournier.  I'm not convinced I would prefer James Young to him.

Secondly, that trade was made before the draft. Even if Orlando liked James Young more than Fournier, they would not have known Young would be there when it was their turn to pick at 17.

Thirdly, both Afflalo and Asik will be free agents this summer.  Both will likely get raises.  If you think Afflalo and Asik and Asik would put the C's in championship contention, I'll disagree but not question your logic.  But if they don't, you've now given up multiple 1sts for two guys who you either a) let walk, or b) re-sign at the cost of not being able to get a free agent who might help you more (and/or complete a trade for another player who also has a hig salary.)  You could probably make a decent 3-5 seed in the East with that team, but that's probably it's ceiling, and you have much less flexibility to improve it further from there.  You might make a conference final if everything goes right, but more than likely you're a second-round team, or get bounced early if things don't go right.

Players of Afflalo's and Asik's quality are available every year.  This year they'll both be on the free agent markets.  Given what they cost to acquire, it's not unreasonable to have passed on them.

I think my point is being wildly misconstrued.

I don't think the trades would make us a contender. I think they would've made us a 5-8 seed without totally mortgaging our future and sent a clear message to Rondo that the front office believes in him as a superstar.

Having not made any of those types of moves, I can only conclude that the front office doesn't feel Rondo is a max-level guy. Looking at similar situations (impending star FA in his prime), teams that feel their guy is a superstar and worth max money typically make Afflalo/Asik deals hoping for a decent seed and a second round playoff run. Teams that feel their guy is a very good but not great player wait patiently for a great player to come along that their guy can play second fiddle to.

Ultimately, there's no reason why DA wouldn't want to keep Rondo at a price he deems fair. But it's clear that the price will be trumped by other teams who have stars to pair with Rondo (NYK, LAL), and nothing indicates that DA is stressed about that reality.

There are other ways for a front office to demonstrate to a player how they feel about him besides making (what some might think foolish) trades to appease his sense of urgency to win.

Individual conversations with Ainge, Wyc, etc. concerning the vision for the club, for instance. Unfortunately, we're not privy to those.

[LooseCannon]

It looks to me like Ainge is targeting the summer of 2015 as a time to make a move.  I think Plan A is to bring in another star to join Rondo, maintaining flexibility to either go through trade or free agency.  Plan B is to determine whether it makes sense to try and continue on with Rondo on the team.

Unless he can bring in a player who is better than Jeff Green, I expect Ainge to avoid giving up a first (that includes the protected Philly pick) or acquire a player signed for significant money beyond this season in any mid-season deal.

[TheFlex]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits.

DA would hardly have been panicking by nabbing a guy like Afflalo or Asik this summer.

Afflalo went for a late second rounder and Evan Fournier. James Young on his own should have enough to trump that offer.

Firstly, we have different opinions on the value of Evan Fournier.  I'm not convinced I would prefer James Young to him.

Secondly, that trade was made before the draft. Even if Orlando liked James Young more than Fournier, they would not have known Young would be there when it was their turn to pick at 17.

Thirdly, both Afflalo and Asik will be free agents this summer.  Both will likely get raises.  If you think Afflalo and Asik and Asik would put the C's in championship contention, I'll disagree but not question your logic.  But if they don't, you've now given up multiple 1sts for two guys who you either a) let walk, or b) re-sign at the cost of not being able to get a free agent who might help you more (and/or complete a trade for another player who also has a hig salary.)  You could probably make a decent 3-5 seed in the East with that team, but that's probably it's ceiling, and you have much less flexibility to improve it further from there.  You might make a conference final if everything goes right, but more than likely you're a second-round team, or get bounced early if things don't go right.

Players of Afflalo's and Asik's quality are available every year.  This year they'll both be on the free agent markets.  Given what they cost to acquire, it's not unreasonable to have passed on them.

I think my point is being wildly misconstrued.

I don't think the trades would make us a contender. I think they would've made us a 5-8 seed without totally mortgaging our future and sent a clear message to Rondo that the front office believes in him as a superstar.

Having not made any of those types of moves, I can only conclude that the front office doesn't feel Rondo is a max-level guy. Looking at similar situations (impending star FA in his prime), teams that feel their guy is a superstar and worth max money typically make Afflalo/Asik deals hoping for a decent seed and a second round playoff run. Teams that feel their guy is a very good but not great player wait patiently for a great player to come along that their guy can play second fiddle to.

Ultimately, there's no reason why DA wouldn't want to keep Rondo at a price he deems fair. But it's clear that the price will be trumped by other teams who have stars to pair with Rondo (NYK, LAL), and nothing indicates that DA is stressed about that reality.

There are other ways for a front office to demonstrate to a player how they feel about him besides making (what some might think foolish) trades to appease his sense of urgency to win.

Individual conversations with Ainge, Wyc, etc. concerning the vision for the club, for instance. Unfortunately, we're not privy to those.

That may be so, but a front office who doesn't believe the player is worth max money is far less likely to make those deals and far more likely to opt for other relationship-boosting methods, as you said.

Do you think Danny believes Rondo is a max player? If so, why?

[obnoxiousmime]

No.  Teams that panic and make any wild trades to try and put mediocre name talent around their stars are doomed to fail.  (see Knicks)


Ainge hasn't had the move he wants, so he waits. 

To play devils advocate for a minute, isn't it possible hes could become too patient? By that I mean waste entire seasons being a middle of the road team waiting for the second coming of the KG trade to appear?

While last year wasn't wasted as we acquired Smart and to a lesser degree Young, I do believe we need to make moves eventually, as many posters have better stated than I ever could this roster is mismatched and screams trade incoming.

No, he is building assets. 



He didn't panic and trade Pierce right away.  Celtics built up trade pieces until the trade was there. 


Same idea here.  If the team gets lucky, one of the pieces develops into one of the top level building blocks they need.

As someone who wanted to start the rebuild a year earlier, I have to say I agree a little bit with the Devil, or at least with his advocate.

We don't know what Ainge could have gotten for Pierce and Garnett a year earlier. Remember the Jordan and Bledsoe rumors? Those guys would look pretty good in green right now. Getting back actual young players would have accelerated the rebuild as opposed to draft picks that may/may not be so good and also come very far in the future.

I do think it was a great haul but time and flexibility are worth something too. In taking on Wallace, we lost some time and flexibility for three years. The first pick we got came soon but the next ones will be in 2 and 4 years. That matters. If we had made the deal for players instead, we would be further along the rebuild. In a way, the Wallace deal and the fact that the picks are so far in the future almost guaranteed that the rebuild would be long.

Obviously it's hard to criticize the deal because we simply don't know what else was available in the past. I just think that in that case Ainge may have been bailed out a bit by a desperate Nets team and that the second best offer that offseason was probably much, much worse. Being too patient in dealing Rondo and Green (if Ainge has decided he doesn't want to re-sign them) or assuming they won't bolt in FA is definitely a risk.