Author Topic: Rondo is our Carmelo  (Read 9162 times)

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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2014, 05:00:44 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

Wow. I don't know. I'm going to get back to you on this once I've thought about it (especially in regards to salary cap + roster adjustments and things), but my first thoughts: we still win in 2008, obviously. 2010 is probably still a Lakers W. I don't think we get past Miami in 2012.

Yea its pretty interesting.. From a coaching perspective, I felt we had enough fire power to put up points with the big 3 and 2nd unit players like House and Wellz. With that said i would'nt want to mess up chemistry with another "scorer".  I rather have a player to "pass" to the "scorers" and gey easy layup when they think the ball is going to one of the BIG3. That's what Rondo did so well. I personally don't think we beat LA with Melo at the 4. against the heat Jeff Green did  probably whatever Melo could've done IMO. Atleast for that serious

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2014, 05:03:26 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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I agree with you about everything but Green. I don't have the stats in front of me but it seems as Green is the player scoring the most without Rondo's help (Thorton as well).
Also feel his shot selection has improved greatly. He always been a decent scoring , even his short time in OKC. I personally just think he is undervalued. I bet if he was on Miami he'd be scoring twice as much as Deng is right now
I think Green's biggest is problem is he has limited court vision and turns it over too much. He's got better, but I think if you had to run the offense through him, it would still be too easy for teams to collapse around him without fearing that he will hit the open guy. I think he either needs a fast break or Rondo to get him the ball where he can just make a quick decision and limit his mistakes. Part of the reason or half-court struggles is we can't effectively run the offense through him (and typically don't even try).


That was actually a pretty spot on definition of Green! TP!

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2014, 05:05:14 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Rondo may be our Carmelo in a sense but it's important to note that Carmelo has been a far more impactful player than Rondo has over the course of his career. If you can't come to that conclusion, you're smoking some serious green (see what I did there?).

Rondo can be the second or third best player on a contending squad. Carmelo can unquestionably be the first.

Except for the fact that Carmelo has never been the best player on a contending team.  Rondo has.

No, he hasn't.

I take it back.  Anthony was the best player on the 2009 Nuggets team that made the conference finals.

There is less of an argument to be made about Anthony and the WCF than Rondo and the ECF, or the Finals proper, I think.
BUT IF I HAD THE OPTION AND RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND... I WOULD RATHER HAVE RONDO ON MY TEAM 9/10 TIMES... WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

This question is a little bit flippant regarding the main point here, which is that it's easier to build a contender around Melo as your best player than it is to build one around Rondo as a best player, but it's certainly an interesting question.

I would probably say yes because PP and KG are great passers. Even if we just had a facilitator at point like Jose Calderon, that'd probably be one of the best teams ever. Ray-PP-Melo-KG 2-5 is one heck of a Big Four.

2008 is still ends in a ring and I think 2010 would too. I think we would've closed out 2010 in six (the game Perk went down). We also would've gone further in 2011. I'm not sure about 2012, but in that fourth quarter of game 7 (vs. Miami in the ECFs) when the game slowed down, it would've been sweet to have two dominant iso scorers in Pierce and Melo.


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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2014, 05:08:43 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Another thing to keep in mind is that Anthony typically has about a month each season where he catches fire and lays waste to everything... but those hot streaks typically don't last much longer than that.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2014, 05:14:56 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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Rondo may be our Carmelo in a sense but it's important to note that Carmelo has been a far more impactful player than Rondo has over the course of his career. If you can't come to that conclusion, you're smoking some serious green (see what I did there?).

Rondo can be the second or third best player on a contending squad. Carmelo can unquestionably be the first.

Except for the fact that Carmelo has never been the best player on a contending team.  Rondo has.

No, he hasn't.

I take it back.  Anthony was the best player on the 2009 Nuggets team that made the conference finals.

There is less of an argument to be made about Anthony and the WCF than Rondo and the ECF, or the Finals proper, I think.
BUT IF I HAD THE OPTION AND RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND... I WOULD RATHER HAVE RONDO ON MY TEAM 9/10 TIMES... WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

This question is a little bit flippant regarding the main point here, which is that it's easier to build a contender around Melo as your best player than it is to build one around Rondo as a best player, but it's certainly an interesting question.

I would probably say yes because PP and KG are great passers. Even if we just had a facilitator at point like Jose Calderon, that'd probably be one of the best teams ever. Ray-PP-Melo-KG 2-5 is one heck of a Big Four.

2008 is still ends in a ring and I think 2010 would too. I think we would've closed out 2010 in six (the game Perk went down). We also would've gone further in 2011. I'm not sure about 2012, but in that fourth quarter of game 7 (vs. Miami in the ECFs) when the game slowed down, it would've been sweet to have two dominant iso scorers in Pierce and Melo.


Actually if you read my whole original post  I said you build around Melo becuase he puts the ball through the ring (every1 just cut out the Rondo or Melo Big 3 Question). I just personally think it be 2 many go-to guys to get going. Also  feel  that Melo wont make the right passes and needing the ball to much to stay in beast mode.. Knowing mean, im probably wrong hah ah haha

BIG 3 ERA DIDNT NEED ANOTHER SCORER , THEY JUST NEEDED PERFECTED EXECUTION. THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS YOU CAN ASK FOR IN A TEAM RONDO WOULD HELP BEST IN THAT DEPARTMENT

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2014, 05:18:16 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Rondo may be our Carmelo in a sense but it's important to note that Carmelo has been a far more impactful player than Rondo has over the course of his career. If you can't come to that conclusion, you're smoking some serious green (see what I did there?).

Rondo can be the second or third best player on a contending squad. Carmelo can unquestionably be the first.

Except for the fact that Carmelo has never been the best player on a contending team.  Rondo has.

No, he hasn't.

I take it back.  Anthony was the best player on the 2009 Nuggets team that made the conference finals.

There is less of an argument to be made about Anthony and the WCF than Rondo and the ECF, or the Finals proper, I think.
BUT IF I HAD THE OPTION AND RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND... I WOULD RATHER HAVE RONDO ON MY TEAM 9/10 TIMES... WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

This question is a little bit flippant regarding the main point here, which is that it's easier to build a contender around Melo as your best player than it is to build one around Rondo as a best player, but it's certainly an interesting question.

I would probably say yes because PP and KG are great passers. Even if we just had a facilitator at point like Jose Calderon, that'd probably be one of the best teams ever. Ray-PP-Melo-KG 2-5 is one heck of a Big Four.

2008 is still ends in a ring and I think 2010 would too. I think we would've closed out 2010 in six (the game Perk went down). We also would've gone further in 2011. I'm not sure about 2012, but in that fourth quarter of game 7 (vs. Miami in the ECFs) when the game slowed down, it would've been sweet to have two dominant iso scorers in Pierce and Melo.

I'm quoting myself here because I want to address the 2010 series vs. LAL. The concern here is we wouldn't have been able to match up defensively against their front court with Melo/KG.

Melo, like other scorers constantly scrutinized for their lack of effort on D, is clearly a capable defender at the very least. What people don't seem to realize is that these players don't have any extra "effort" to give, at least not over the course of an 82-100 game season (playoffs). They're carrying the majority of the offensive load and that takes enough of a toll on its own. Few players can give 100% on both ends every night and that's not because of below-average will, it's just that it takes intense will to do so night in, night out, every season. KG and Kobe come to mind, but even Kobe began slipping on D when he was asked to become the guy on a title contender without Shaq (correct me if I'm wrong).

In a 7-game Finals series however, no drop of effort is left unsqueezed. I have to think Melo would be giving it his all just as he has in other big games/series (NCAA tourney, '09 Nuggets, etc.). If that's the case, his body is not all that different than David West's, except Melo is the superior athlete. Would people be scared to put West (Melo)-Hibbert (Garnett) up against Gasol/Bynum in that series? Perhaps, but the level of concern would be almost negligible.

Rebounding shouldn't even be a question. Melo is one of the best rebounding forwards in the game considering his workload on offense, PFs included. Obviously the advantage goes to Gasol/Bynum, but again, I'm not seeing the massively undersized (in terms of rebounding and defense) frontcourt that others seem to see when imagining Melo/Garnett. Don't forget that Pierce is also a big forward that can rebound the ball as well.

Our offense vs. theirs wouldn't even be close. Let's use Calderon as an example again. Calderon-Ray-Pierce-Melo-KG would have had the potential to be one of if not the greatest offensive starting lineup of all-time. Any slight disadvantages we'd face down low would be overridden by our offensive firepower.

At least, I think.  :)

edit: Also consider that KG would probably have been top 3 in DPOY voting for about five straight years starting in 2008 if he could hand the majority of his offensive load over to Melo.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 05:23:51 PM by TheFlex »


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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 05:22:28 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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I guess i can sorta agree with you but lets play Devils Advocate. The question was a swap for Melo or Rondo.. IF you can add Calderon to Melo. You should also have the right to say keep Rondo and add another player of choice since you tagged along Jose  with the choice of melo..

If you could only swapped Melo for Rondo and go straight int othe playoffs with the roster would you do it?

IMO BIG 3 ERA DIDNT NEED ANOTHER SCORER , THEY JUST NEEDED PERFECTED EXECUTION. THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS YOU CAN ASK FOR IN A TEAM
to much scoring isn't always a good thing

EDIT: KG wouldve deffinitely masked MELO defensivel iabilities so we can debate for hours!!!!!

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 05:22:58 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Rondo may be our Carmelo in a sense but it's important to note that Carmelo has been a far more impactful player than Rondo has over the course of his career. If you can't come to that conclusion, you're smoking some serious green (see what I did there?).

Rondo can be the second or third best player on a contending squad. Carmelo can unquestionably be the first.

Except for the fact that Carmelo has never been the best player on a contending team.  Rondo has.

No, he hasn't.

I take it back.  Anthony was the best player on the 2009 Nuggets team that made the conference finals.

There is less of an argument to be made about Anthony and the WCF than Rondo and the ECF, or the Finals proper, I think.
BUT IF I HAD THE OPTION AND RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND... I WOULD RATHER HAVE RONDO ON MY TEAM 9/10 TIMES... WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

This question is a little bit flippant regarding the main point here, which is that it's easier to build a contender around Melo as your best player than it is to build one around Rondo as a best player, but it's certainly an interesting question.

I would probably say yes because PP and KG are great passers. Even if we just had a facilitator at point like Jose Calderon, that'd probably be one of the best teams ever. Ray-PP-Melo-KG 2-5 is one heck of a Big Four.

2008 is still ends in a ring and I think 2010 would too. I think we would've closed out 2010 in six (the game Perk went down). We also would've gone further in 2011. I'm not sure about 2012, but in that fourth quarter of game 7 (vs. Miami in the ECFs) when the game slowed down, it would've been sweet to have two dominant iso scorers in Pierce and Melo.


Actually if you read my whole original post  I said you build around Melo becuase he puts the ball through the ring (every1 just cut out the Rondo or Melo Big 3 Question). I just personally think it be 2 many go-to guys to get going. Also  feel  that Melo wont make the right passes and needing the ball to much to stay in beast mode.. Knowing mean, im probably wrong hah ah haha

BIG 3 ERA DIDNT NEED ANOTHER SCORER , THEY JUST NEEDED PERFECTED EXECUTION. THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS YOU CAN ASK FOR IN A TEAM RONDO WOULD HELP BEST IN THAT DEPARTMENT

Just because it worked well doesn't mean they needed a distributor to make it work at all. They didn't need another scorer, but it's hard for me to imagine that there's no way a professional NBA coach couldn't make a Big Four (talking about RA/PP/CA/KG here) with those offensive skills "work," and work well at that.


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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 05:26:16 PM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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Rondo may be our Carmelo in a sense but it's important to note that Carmelo has been a far more impactful player than Rondo has over the course of his career. If you can't come to that conclusion, you're smoking some serious green (see what I did there?).

Rondo can be the second or third best player on a contending squad. Carmelo can unquestionably be the first.

Except for the fact that Carmelo has never been the best player on a contending team.  Rondo has.

No, he hasn't.

I take it back.  Anthony was the best player on the 2009 Nuggets team that made the conference finals.

There is less of an argument to be made about Anthony and the WCF than Rondo and the ECF, or the Finals proper, I think.
BUT IF I HAD THE OPTION AND RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND... I WOULD RATHER HAVE RONDO ON MY TEAM 9/10 TIMES... WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

This question is a little bit flippant regarding the main point here, which is that it's easier to build a contender around Melo as your best player than it is to build one around Rondo as a best player, but it's certainly an interesting question.

I would probably say yes because PP and KG are great passers. Even if we just had a facilitator at point like Jose Calderon, that'd probably be one of the best teams ever. Ray-PP-Melo-KG 2-5 is one heck of a Big Four.

2008 is still ends in a ring and I think 2010 would too. I think we would've closed out 2010 in six (the game Perk went down). We also would've gone further in 2011. I'm not sure about 2012, but in that fourth quarter of game 7 (vs. Miami in the ECFs) when the game slowed down, it would've been sweet to have two dominant iso scorers in Pierce and Melo.


Actually if you read my whole original post  I said you build around Melo becuase he puts the ball through the ring (every1 just cut out the Rondo or Melo Big 3 Question). I just personally think it be 2 many go-to guys to get going. Also  feel  that Melo wont make the right passes and needing the ball to much to stay in beast mode.. Knowing mean, im probably wrong hah ah haha

BIG 3 ERA DIDNT NEED ANOTHER SCORER , THEY JUST NEEDED PERFECTED EXECUTION. THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS YOU CAN ASK FOR IN A TEAM RONDO WOULD HELP BEST IN THAT DEPARTMENT

Just because it worked well doesn't mean they needed a distributor to make it work at all. They didn't need another scorer, but it's hard for me to imagine that there's no way a professional NBA coach couldn't make a Big Four (talking about RA/PP/CA/KG here) with those offensive skills "work," and work well at that.

Well you are right. They didn't need passing necessarily but ....... I feel like this is a biggie or tupac debate. too many contingencies. OVERALL I RESPEXT YOU AND D.O.S opinions on the subject. Im startigng to second guess my Rondo choice!! STOP TALKING!!!!!!!!

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2014, 05:28:36 PM »

Offline littleteapot

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A- Are you guys forgetting that Doc subbed in Eddie House for Rondo in long stretches in the '08 finals because he wanted an extra shooter more than a distributor? Obviously this didn't happen in later years after Rondo came into his own, but the lack of a distributor didn't seem to hurt the C's when they used Eddie f-ing house.

B- Carmelo is one of those guys who has never been on a team with players equal to him, so we assume he wouldn't fit in one. If he was on one of those teams, I think he would be super Barkley and just physically dominate people. Plus, he would be able to move between the 3 and 4 purely based on matchup - most of the time he has to pick one because his teams just don't have a guy to play the other spot.
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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 05:28:54 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Rondo may be our Carmelo in a sense but it's important to note that Carmelo has been a far more impactful player than Rondo has over the course of his career. If you can't come to that conclusion, you're smoking some serious green (see what I did there?).

Rondo can be the second or third best player on a contending squad. Carmelo can unquestionably be the first.

Except for the fact that Carmelo has never been the best player on a contending team.  Rondo has.

No, he hasn't.

I take it back.  Anthony was the best player on the 2009 Nuggets team that made the conference finals.

There is less of an argument to be made about Anthony and the WCF than Rondo and the ECF, or the Finals proper, I think.
BUT IF I HAD THE OPTION AND RIGHT PLAYERS AROUND... I WOULD RATHER HAVE RONDO ON MY TEAM 9/10 TIMES... WOULD YOU OF SWAPPED RONDO FOR MELO IN THE BIG 3 ERA?

This question is a little bit flippant regarding the main point here, which is that it's easier to build a contender around Melo as your best player than it is to build one around Rondo as a best player, but it's certainly an interesting question.

I would probably say yes because PP and KG are great passers. Even if we just had a facilitator at point like Jose Calderon, that'd probably be one of the best teams ever. Ray-PP-Melo-KG 2-5 is one heck of a Big Four.

2008 is still ends in a ring and I think 2010 would too. I think we would've closed out 2010 in six (the game Perk went down). We also would've gone further in 2011. I'm not sure about 2012, but in that fourth quarter of game 7 (vs. Miami in the ECFs) when the game slowed down, it would've been sweet to have two dominant iso scorers in Pierce and Melo.


Actually if you read my whole original post  I said you build around Melo becuase he puts the ball through the ring (every1 just cut out the Rondo or Melo Big 3 Question). I just personally think it be 2 many go-to guys to get going. Also  feel  that Melo wont make the right passes and needing the ball to much to stay in beast mode.. Knowing mean, im probably wrong hah ah haha

BIG 3 ERA DIDNT NEED ANOTHER SCORER , THEY JUST NEEDED PERFECTED EXECUTION. THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS YOU CAN ASK FOR IN A TEAM RONDO WOULD HELP BEST IN THAT DEPARTMENT

Just because it worked well doesn't mean they needed a distributor to make it work at all. They didn't need another scorer, but it's hard for me to imagine that there's no way a professional NBA coach couldn't make a Big Four (talking about RA/PP/CA/KG here) with those offensive skills "work," and work well at that.

Well you are right. They didn't need passing necessarily but ....... I feel like this is a biggie or tupac debate. too many contingencies. OVERALL I RESPEXT YOU AND D.O.S opinions on the subject. Im startigng to second guess my Rondo choice!! STOP TALKING!!!!!!!!

Ahh, Biggie and Tupac are overrated anyway.  ;)

I agree with you that Rondo is a phenomenal player in certain situations. Just seems to me that Melo is a phenomenal player in more situations, and I think there's a world in which Ray-PP-Melo-KG works seamlessly on offense.

TP for the question.


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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 05:29:01 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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I think the op is trying to say he doesn't like Rondo...

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2014, 05:41:20 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Just a little theory I've been thinking about lately.

Both are talented, but ultimately flawed players that need to be surrounded by exactly the right sort of talent in order to flourish. Both are borderline "max"players whose reputations might exceed their actual abilities.

In my opinion, both are the type of players that should NOT be kept by rebuilding teams, as they will only continue to delay the rebuilding process and eat up valuable cap space that can be used to facilitate better deals for the team's long-term health.

I would hate to see my Celtics do what the Knicks did this offseason, which is essentially confine themselves to basketball purgatory for the next half-decade.

Keep in mind that since 08-09, advanced stats measuring Rondo's performance have fairly steadily declined. This is during a time when Rondo should be entering his prime. Keep in mind that the next contract Rondo signs will continue to pay him until he's ripe old 33 (very old, for a point guard that doesn't have a 3 point shot). Even if you consider Rondo to be a max player now, will he still be in 4-5 years, which would be when the Celtics are back in contention (assuming everything goes as planned)? Highly unlikely, based on the stats trend.

One of the reasons that Rondo is so controversial is because a lot of what he does is so hard to measure. But lately the intangibles that he used to thrive on (such as his defense) have been withering up. Expected progress in FT's and 3 point shooting simply never materialized, and at 28 it's pretty silly to assume that they will. Rondo also never drives to the basket anymore, which is partially why his fg% has been dropping like a rock for years at this point.

Long story short: has Rondo played like a max player in the past? Yes. Will he ever regain that form? Maybe. Is it worth it to gamble the entire future of this team on one player defying the odds and playing like a top player again? I would have to say no.

Rondo is our Carmelo. For the love of all that's holy, let's try NOT to be the NY Knicks.
So who are the exact right sort of players on the team this year allowing Rondo to lead the league in assists and in point guard rebounds?  If that isn't "flourishing" what is?

Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2014, 05:44:05 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Just a little theory I've been thinking about lately.

Both are talented, but ultimately flawed players that need to be surrounded by exactly the right sort of talent in order to flourish. Both are borderline "max"players whose reputations might exceed their actual abilities.

In my opinion, both are the type of players that should NOT be kept by rebuilding teams, as they will only continue to delay the rebuilding process and eat up valuable cap space that can be used to facilitate better deals for the team's long-term health.

I would hate to see my Celtics do what the Knicks did this offseason, which is essentially confine themselves to basketball purgatory for the next half-decade.

Keep in mind that since 08-09, advanced stats measuring Rondo's performance have fairly steadily declined. This is during a time when Rondo should be entering his prime. Keep in mind that the next contract Rondo signs will continue to pay him until he's ripe old 33 (very old, for a point guard that doesn't have a 3 point shot). Even if you consider Rondo to be a max player now, will he still be in 4-5 years, which would be when the Celtics are back in contention (assuming everything goes as planned)? Highly unlikely, based on the stats trend.

One of the reasons that Rondo is so controversial is because a lot of what he does is so hard to measure. But lately the intangibles that he used to thrive on (such as his defense) have been withering up. Expected progress in FT's and 3 point shooting simply never materialized, and at 28 it's pretty silly to assume that they will. Rondo also never drives to the basket anymore, which is partially why his fg% has been dropping like a rock for years at this point.

Long story short: has Rondo played like a max player in the past? Yes. Will he ever regain that form? Maybe. Is it worth it to gamble the entire future of this team on one player defying the odds and playing like a top player again? I would have to say no.

Rondo is our Carmelo. For the love of all that's holy, let's try NOT to be the NY Knicks.
So who are the exact right sort of players on the team this year allowing Rondo to lead the league in assists and in point guard rebounds?  If that isn't "flourishing" what is?

Winning basketball games, something we'd be doing more of if we had Carmelo vs. Rondo.


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Re: Rondo is our Carmelo
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2014, 05:52:55 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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I think I've found the best phrasing to convey my thoughts on Rondo.

Rondo is a tremendously talented complementary player. I have no doubt in my mind he can be a top 3 player on a contender. In unique situations, he can be the best player on a contender.

But Rondo's game is not suitable to carry a team in most situations. He's a guy that will elevate the play of any teammate, but unless his teammates are already really good on their own, that elevation will not have much impact on the team's W-L record. In other words, he'll still get double digit assists and put up above-average rebounding numbers for a guard regardless of the talent surrounding him, but he needs good surrounding talent for that impact to result in wins.

Rondo could add 5-10 wins to a team like Houston, but at best he'd add 1-2 to a team like Orlando. Melo, as a player whose impact results in more victories no matter who he is playing with, would add 5-10 wins to both teams.


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