Three of our starters are top ten at their position.

[KGs Knee]

I think it's a stretch to say we have three starters each in the top 10 at their respective positions.  Rondo is really the only one who you could credibly make that argument for.  In time I think Sully could join that conversation as well.  Bradley will never be a top 10 SG, I just don't see it.

I do think a realistic argument could be made for all three players being top 15 though.

[obnoxiousmime]

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

The thing is young teams simply do not win in the NBA. We've got young players playing significant minutes in Zeller, Olynyk, Sullinger, and Bradley. Even Turner is just starting his second contract. The only players who you could say are in their peak are Rondo, Bass, and Green.

We're really not in "win" mode right now, we're closer to "collect assets" mode. If we were in "win" mode we'd have more veterans on the team and the young guys would only be playing supplemental roles instead of starring ones.

[Celtics18]

Maybe a little optimistic, but I will agree that we actually have very decent mid-level talent on our team. Also, our bench is actually pretty solid.

The problem is our lack of a 'superstar' go-to scorer and 'rim protection'. You are right that our record is probably a little deceiving, but the main reason for that is we are totally unable to close out a game - like worst I've ever seen, bad. This can really only be corrected with the acquisition of our next Paul Pierce.

  One could argue that the reason we lost the finals in 2010 was the lack of a 'superstar' go-to scorer. We still got to the finals that year, into the second round the next season and almost made it to the finals in 2012.

The reason we lost in the 2010 finals was because our superstar was playing on one leg.
He still had 3 All Star team mates including the greatest 3 point shooter of all time, a finals MVP and Celtics legend and top 10 player.

  PP wasn't a top 10 player in 2010. And our superstar was playing on one leg, but he had been playing on one leg for the entire playoffs, when we beat 2 of the best teams in the league led by the best and 2nd or 3rd best players in the league.

I don't think you can fairly use the 2010 team in any kind of comparison or argument to this team.

  I didn't.

2012 was a freakish 7 game series by Rondo that even you'd admit-we'll probably never see again. He was a superstar for that Miami series- a top 5 NBA player.

  Yes, Rondo's 21/7/11 was phenomenal. But what had we seen from him before that?

  17/6/12
  19/7/12
  21/6/12
  19/9/12

  It's not like his play in that series was the rarity you think it was. It wasn't even his best series, the 2010 Cavs series was. I don't see why it's so out of the question that someone who's had 5 playoff series of 17+ points, 6+ rebounds and 11+ assists who's still in the middle of his prime would ever be able to play at that level again.

I want to put 2009 vs. the Bulls and 2011 vs. the Knicks into the mix as among Rondo's best playoff series.

[oldtype]

Problem with this argument is that depth by position is so wildly different in the NBA right now.

For example, Rondo is almost certainly a better overall player than Green, but Green might actually be ranked higher in his position just because PG is so ridiculously stacked right now and the wing positions are so shallow.

All in all Rondo, Green, and Sullinger are all really nice players and I wouldn't mind them being our second, third, and fourth best guys.  It's a #1 that we need to contend again and that is going to be extremely difficult to get.

Adding to the degree of difficulty is the fact that two of those three guys are most likely gone for nothing in the summer.

[greece66]

Problem with this argument is that depth by position is so wildly different in the NBA right now.

For example, Rondo is almost certainly a better overall player than Green, but Green might actually be ranked higher in his position just because PG is so ridiculously stacked right now and the wing positions are so shallow.

All in all Rondo, Green, and Sullinger are all really nice players and I wouldn't mind them being our second, third, and fourth best guys. It's a #1 that we need to contend again and that is going to be extremely difficult to get.

Nailed it. 2016 FA might be our best opportunity, but the same is true for the remaining 29 teams.

[Celtics18]

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

The thing is young teams simply do not win in the NBA. We've got young players playing significant minutes in Zeller, Olynyk, Sullinger, and Bradley. Even Turner is just starting his second contract. The only players who you could say are in their peak are Rondo, Bass, and Green.

We're really not in "win" mode right now, we're closer to "collect assets" mode. If we were in "win" mode we'd have more veterans on the team and the young guys would only be playing supplemental roles instead of starring ones.

Like John Wall and Bradley Beal. 

[Celtics18]

Problem with this argument is that depth by position is so wildly different in the NBA right now.

For example, Rondo is almost certainly a better overall player than Green, but Green might actually be ranked higher in his position just because PG is so ridiculously stacked right now and the wing positions are so shallow.

All in all Rondo, Green, and Sullinger are all really nice players and I wouldn't mind them being our second, third, and fourth best guys.  It's a #1 that we need to contend again and that is going to be extremely difficult to get.

Adding to the degree of difficulty is the fact that two of those three guys are most likely gone for nothing in the summer.

I think you are on to something in your last paragraph and a half.  This is why it is crucial for our team to be able to stay competitive this season.  We'll have a much better chance of retaining those two guys and adding help this off-season if we can put ourselves in the hunt for a playoff spot than if we do another bottom five tank job. 

if the latter ends up happening, we are really going to be in it deep with no paddle as far as getting back into contention before the end of the '10s. 

A lot of folks mistakenly think that the main reason I want to see this team show improvement is because I want my marshmallow, and I want it now, but the truth is that if we suck royally again this season, there could well be no marshmallows at all for a very long time. 

[dreamgreen]

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

The thing is young teams simply do not win in the NBA. We've got young players playing significant minutes in Zeller, Olynyk, Sullinger, and Bradley. Even Turner is just starting his second contract. The only players who you could say are in their peak are Rondo, Bass, and Green.

We're really not in "win" mode right now, we're closer to "collect assets" mode. If we were in "win" mode we'd have more veterans on the team and the young guys would only be playing supplemental roles instead of starring ones.

I think everyone understands that, but the topic is "Three of our starters are top ten at their position" and that is just crazy talk. We like most teams have some good players but if our players were that good we would be MUCH better.

[Celtics18]

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

The thing is young teams simply do not win in the NBA. We've got young players playing significant minutes in Zeller, Olynyk, Sullinger, and Bradley. Even Turner is just starting his second contract. The only players who you could say are in their peak are Rondo, Bass, and Green.

We're really not in "win" mode right now, we're closer to "collect assets" mode. If we were in "win" mode we'd have more veterans on the team and the young guys would only be playing supplemental roles instead of starring ones.

I think everyone understands that, but the topic is "Three of our starters are top ten at their position" and that is just crazy talk. We like most teams have some good players but if our players were that good we would be MUCH better.

It's not crazy talk, though.  If you check their production thus far relative to other players at their respective positions, I think you'll find that it's not so outlandish a claim. 

[flybono]

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

Thank you!

[SHAQATTACK]

Yeah buddy

Danny's knocked it out of the park with this group

[DarkAzcura]

The problem with a "top ten" list is that it doesn't account for the differences in talent between players, just how they would rank. It's possible that 1-2 are MVP-caliber players, then 3-6 are the next level, the multiple all-star level. 7-9 are the guys who make the all-star team a couple times in their career but are not regulars. Finally 10-16 are talented guys who have long careers but aren't quite stars. Between each tier there could be huge gaps in ability. The 10th best SF for example might be a closer in talent to the 20th best SF than the 1st.

Looking at the top SFs, the depth is not there so Green is probably in there around 7-10. However, I'm not sure what kind of conclusions you can reach from that because the drop off is so steep.

Top SFs (rough ranking):

1. LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Kawhi Leonard
Rudy Gay
Nicholas Batum
Gordon Hayward
Chandler Parsons
Jeff Green
Trevor Ariza
Kyle Korver
12. Luol Deng

I would probably put LBJ and Durant in the top tier, obviously. Carmelo is in the 2nd tier by himself, with Kawhi and Gay in the 3rd tier. After that you have about 5 or more guys that are roughly similar in value, though of course that is subjective. The thing about that group of guys is if they are the number 1 or 2 options on their team, the team is probably bad. Of course, some of the players on the list are still quite young.

Ok Power Forwards (again, a rough ranking):

1. Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Tim Duncan
Chris Bosh
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Al Jefferson
Serge Ibaka
Paul Millsap
12. Derrick Favors

Looking at this list, I guess you meant Bradley is a top 10 SG? I don't really see Sullinger as being better than these 12 players, at least not yet.

SG:

1. James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Dragic or Bledsoe depending on who you consider SG
DeMar DeRozan
Monta Ellis
Jimmy Butler
Wesley Matthews
Bradley Beal
Danny Green
Lance Stephenson
Victor Oladipo
Joe Johnson
15. Jamal Crawford

I guess if you really tried you could squeeze Bradley somewhere into a top ten with that group of players, if you consider his defense to be the additional skill to push him ahead. Personally I think his defense has dropped off and is now a little overrated.

Anyway I guess I sound a little negative but I don't feel like we have three "top ten" starters, and even if we did it just goes to show that once you get into the teens the talent drop off is significant. Actually I'm not even sure if such a statement necessarily means anything - you could even take it to be negative: "Three of our starters are ONLY in the top ten at their position."

It could all just be a different way of saying "We really, really need two top-5 players at their position to make all these other top-10 guys on our team look better."

EDIT: Sorry, I did read your original post but forgot that you did mean Sullinger and not Bradley.

Cousins, Duncan, Jefferson, Bosh, and Favors are not power forwards. Favors is also not better than Sullinger anyway.

Green is better than a few of the players you listed also.

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

Heavy hitting analysis over here.

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous! If our players are that good why does this team suck? It is the worse second half team I've ever seen period.

The thing is young teams simply do not win in the NBA. We've got young players playing significant minutes in Zeller, Olynyk, Sullinger, and Bradley. Even Turner is just starting his second contract. The only players who you could say are in their peak are Rondo, Bass, and Green.

We're really not in "win" mode right now, we're closer to "collect assets" mode. If we were in "win" mode we'd have more veterans on the team and the young guys would only be playing supplemental roles instead of starring ones.

I think everyone understands that, but the topic is "Three of our starters are top ten at their position" and that is just crazy talk. We like most teams have some good players but if our players were that good we would be MUCH better.

You are completely ignoring the schedule if you are thinking the Celtics have been playing bad. The Celtics could just as easily be 11-7 as they are 7-11 right now. W-L is what matters at the end of the season when we are talking about playoff seeding, but in the short term, looking at W-L is a terrible way to analyze their play. The Celtics were top 3 in terms of SOS in November. That schedule was not easy, ya know, and we played pretty [dang] well all considering. There are actually quite a few playoff teams that struggled a ton against .500+ teams. We've played 11 games vs .500 or better teams already.

It's not nearly as simple as "well if we have 3 top 10 players for their position, where are the results in W-L?!" That kind of simplistic analysis ignores the schedule, it ignores the quality of the players 4-15, and it ignores the overall team defense and its balance. It also ignores how this team doesn't have much of an identity in the 4th quarter and is playing scared. It doesn't make our players bad. It just makes them inexperienced.

[BitterJim]

The problem with a "top ten" list is that it doesn't account for the differences in talent between players, just how they would rank. It's possible that 1-2 are MVP-caliber players, then 3-6 are the next level, the multiple all-star level. 7-9 are the guys who make the all-star team a couple times in their career but are not regulars. Finally 10-16 are talented guys who have long careers but aren't quite stars. Between each tier there could be huge gaps in ability. The 10th best SF for example might be a closer in talent to the 20th best SF than the 1st.

Looking at the top SFs, the depth is not there so Green is probably in there around 7-10. However, I'm not sure what kind of conclusions you can reach from that because the drop off is so steep.

Top SFs (rough ranking):

1. LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Kawhi Leonard
Rudy Gay
Nicholas Batum
Gordon Hayward
Chandler Parsons
Jeff Green
Trevor Ariza
Kyle Korver
12. Luol Deng

I would probably put LBJ and Durant in the top tier, obviously. Carmelo is in the 2nd tier by himself, with Kawhi and Gay in the 3rd tier. After that you have about 5 or more guys that are roughly similar in value, though of course that is subjective. The thing about that group of guys is if they are the number 1 or 2 options on their team, the team is probably bad. Of course, some of the players on the list are still quite young.

Ok Power Forwards (again, a rough ranking):

1. Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Tim Duncan
Chris Bosh
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Al Jefferson
Serge Ibaka
Paul Millsap
12. Derrick Favors

Looking at this list, I guess you meant Bradley is a top 10 SG? I don't really see Sullinger as being better than these 12 players, at least not yet.

SG:

1. James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Dragic or Bledsoe depending on who you consider SG
DeMar DeRozan
Monta Ellis
Jimmy Butler
Wesley Matthews
Bradley Beal
Danny Green
Lance Stephenson
Victor Oladipo
Joe Johnson
15. Jamal Crawford

I guess if you really tried you could squeeze Bradley somewhere into a top ten with that group of players, if you consider his defense to be the additional skill to push him ahead. Personally I think his defense has dropped off and is now a little overrated.

Anyway I guess I sound a little negative but I don't feel like we have three "top ten" starters, and even if we did it just goes to show that once you get into the teens the talent drop off is significant. Actually I'm not even sure if such a statement necessarily means anything - you could even take it to be negative: "Three of our starters are ONLY in the top ten at their position."

It could all just be a different way of saying "We really, really need two top-5 players at their position to make all these other top-10 guys on our team look better."

EDIT: Sorry, I did read your original post but forgot that you did mean Sullinger and not Bradley.

Did you really list Big Al and DMC as PFs?

Also, Rondo was the third, not AB, but it looks like you figured that out

[TheFlex]

Ok Power Forwards (again, a rough ranking):

1. Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Tim Duncan
Chris Bosh
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Al Jefferson
Serge Ibaka
Paul Millsap
12. Derrick Favors

DMC and Al Jeff are definitely centers. I would say at this point Bosh is a center too.

I don't disagree with your rankings (though I have Griffin much higher than you do), but I have Sully right behind Favors, which would put him at 10th (disqualifying DMC, AJ and Bosh as Cs).