Author Topic: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype  (Read 57599 times)

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Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #120 on: November 30, 2014, 03:35:35 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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nobody i see here is offering "excuses" for ainge's choice of olly. what i see are reasonable points as to why olly was a credible choice. as has been brought up repeatedly, on draft night ainge probably saw olly as having a higher floor but lower ceiling than antetokounmpo. antetokounmpo obviously was higher ceiling, but also higher risk.

i dont blame singe for going "safe" AND good with his choice. it is possible for people to make difference choices and not have one of them be wrong. happens all the time.

as for being "devastated" by this choice, perhaps it is time for you to step away from the keyboard, take a walk around the block, breath deeply, find some flowers, and keep it all in perspective.

Don't worry hwangjini_1, I live a full life and I don't need you to advise me. Keep that for yourself, 4177 posts are way too many. Nevertheless, if one hasn't done his/her homework (s)he would consider Nickoloz Tskitishvili, Kwame Brown, Darko Milicic, etc "safe" picks too. KO is not a bad player in any regard. We could/should have done better.
glad to see you are less devastated. did the flowers work?  ;D
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Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #121 on: December 01, 2014, 06:04:46 PM »

Offline greece66

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Giannis is a better prospect now, but that doesn't mean KO wasn't the right pick at the time. Who could've guessed Giannis would've grown like that? The Bucks just lucked out with him.

No one would have to guess. It was extremely easy to see the talent and prospect in Giannis and Ainge already had done that. There was no excuse. When he declared for the draft I knew I would take him at #1 if I had the top pick. I talked about it in chats/forums at draft night and I was devastated that we missed on him (didn't want to spoil things before the draft - I was sure we were going to get him).
TP
I do not think that objectively Ainge made a bad choice with KO. I'd say that if considered out of context his choice is a B+ given that if the draft was re-run today KO would have been higher than 13.
Still, Ainge can be hold accountable in the sense that after trading our best players for draft picks, he bet everything on his ability to use the draft. Mediocre choices won't cut it, we have to take risks maximizing our chances of landing a future all star in Boston. Going for the safe choice with Olly was going against what the team's needs were at the time. Moreover, we already had a PF in Sully. Of course, I am extra bitter because Giannis comes from the same city I do, and yes, I was pretty excited about him from the start.
At least, I now have the guilty pleasure of secretly watching Milwaukee late at night.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #122 on: December 01, 2014, 06:06:30 PM »

Offline Jonny CC

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^exactly. GA was about as far from a sure thing as you can be while still being a viable NBA prospect. The sky's the limit, sure, but his floor is what, a poor man's Luc Mbuh A Moute (that is to say, sans the excellent wing defense)?

Totally agree.. IMO KO was the safest pick.. Its not everyday the Celticss franchise get a top 6 pick. With our current rebuilding situation and tryin to retain Rondo AT THE SAME TIME trying to bring in another star to speed up the rebuild, KO seemed like a great choice.

GA will probably have "potential" for next 5 years. I really don't see what everybody elses does when it comes to choosing him over KO

It's not everyday you get a 7 footer as fluid as Olynyk.  His size & unique skill set are few and far between in this league.  Tough not to draft that talent.  You just don't find these types growing on trees.

you really don't! and if he ends up no better than a long hair Spencer Hawes... there is nothing wrong with that either.

Hawes, Ryan Anderson....big guys who do what Olynyk does are getting paid in this league.  And there's a darn good reason for it.  Kelly might have the most unique skill set out of all of them.  Got to keep the development going.

A "unique skill set"??  The only thing unique about KO is his awkwardness on Defense.  Don't forget about the defensive side of the ball when comparing talent.  He's a mess on D.   
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Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #123 on: December 01, 2014, 06:10:36 PM »

Offline greece66

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nobody i see here is offering "excuses" for ainge's choice of olly. what i see are reasonable points as to why olly was a credible choice. as has been brought up repeatedly, on draft night ainge probably saw olly as having a higher floor but lower ceiling than antetokounmpo. antetokounmpo obviously was higher ceiling, but also higher risk.

i dont blame singe for going "safe" AND good with his choice. it is possible for people to make difference choices and not have one of them be wrong. happens all the time.

as for being "devastated" by this choice, perhaps it is time for you to step away from the keyboard, take a walk around the block, breath deeply, find some flowers, and keep it all in perspective.

Don't worry hwangjini_1, I live a full life and I don't need you to advise me. Keep that for yourself, 4177 posts are way too many. Nevertheless, if one hasn't done his/her homework (s)he would consider Nickoloz Tskitishvili, Kwame Brown, Darko Milicic, etc "safe" picks too. KO is not a bad player in any regard. We could/should have done better.
glad to see you are less devastated. did the flowers work?  ;D
TP for the laugh.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #124 on: December 01, 2014, 06:15:50 PM »

Offline greece66

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Comparing Olynyk to Giannis is really unfair. Kelly did nothing to deserve this. If anything it was bad decision making by Ainge.
Olynyk is a good player on his own right, and my feeling is that his D will improve. It's not like he doesn't try, he lacks the athleticism and the experience to do it right.
Btw, this is why (unlike Young) Kelly should continue playing in the NBA rather than the D-League (I know it's crazy, but some people did suggest it). Only by playing against big bodies in the NBA he will learn how to do it. Learning to cope with beasts like Duncan and Cousins is an acquired habit and nothing he did in college could have possibly prepared him for that. Give him the time and he will turn out fine.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #125 on: December 01, 2014, 06:29:50 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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^exactly. GA was about as far from a sure thing as you can be while still being a viable NBA prospect. The sky's the limit, sure, but his floor is what, a poor man's Luc Mbuh A Moute (that is to say, sans the excellent wing defense)?

Totally agree.. IMO KO was the safest pick.. Its not everyday the Celticss franchise get a top 6 pick. With our current rebuilding situation and tryin to retain Rondo AT THE SAME TIME trying to bring in another star to speed up the rebuild, KO seemed like a great choice.

GA will probably have "potential" for next 5 years. I really don't see what everybody elses does when it comes to choosing him over KO

It's not everyday you get a 7 footer as fluid as Olynyk.  His size & unique skill set are few and far between in this league.  Tough not to draft that talent.  You just don't find these types growing on trees.

you really don't! and if he ends up no better than a long hair Spencer Hawes... there is nothing wrong with that either.

Hawes, Ryan Anderson....big guys who do what Olynyk does are getting paid in this league.  And there's a darn good reason for it.  Kelly might have the most unique skill set out of all of them.  Got to keep the development going.

A "unique skill set"??  The only thing unique about KO is his awkwardness on Defense.  Don't forget about the defensive side of the ball when comparing talent.  He's a mess on D.   

He's talking about his offense which is another side you need to consider.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2014, 06:56:56 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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It's possible to lament the Celtics not drafting Giannis and still think Olynyk is/will be a solid player. However, if the objective is to get the most valuable/best player you can, as of now it seems Ainge failed. Giannis right now has much more value than Olynyk. Giannis is a guy who could possibly be a centerpiece in a deal for a star, while Olynyk is just a nice role player.

If the objective is "just come away with something" then of course Ainge succeeded by taking the safer pick Olynyk. He is probably not going to be a bust, but he will also not be a star.

It's too bad, because Giannis would have accelerated the rebuild and not only because he has more talent. He has more value than Olynyk as a trade commodity and doesn't play the same position as Sullinger. Green could have been dealt this season and you'd have an obvious replacement there. It's evident now that Olynyk and Sullinger playing together just creates too large of a defensive hole to be sustainable. That doesn't mean either loses value, just that they lose value to us because the mix is untenable.

BTW, I'm not including James Young in this conversation because 1) he was drafted the next year, we don't know what Ainge would have done if Giannis was already on the roster - it's possible he doesn't even draft Young and 2) it's too early to tell whether Young will be any good.

If Milwaukee offered Giannis for Olynyk right now, would anybody turn that down? If not then Ainge simply didn't get the best player. Not bashing him because I actually support Ainge, but the bottom line is he made the wrong decision here.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2014, 07:11:46 AM »

Offline clover

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It's possible to lament the Celtics not drafting Giannis and still think Olynyk is/will be a solid player. However, if the objective is to get the most valuable/best player you can, as of now it seems Ainge failed. Giannis right now has much more value than Olynyk. Giannis is a guy who could possibly be a centerpiece in a deal for a star, while Olynyk is just a nice role player.

If the objective is "just come away with something" then of course Ainge succeeded by taking the safer pick Olynyk. He is probably not going to be a bust, but he will also not be a star.

It's too bad, because Giannis would have accelerated the rebuild and not only because he has more talent. He has more value than Olynyk as a trade commodity and doesn't play the same position as Sullinger. Green could have been dealt this season and you'd have an obvious replacement there. It's evident now that Olynyk and Sullinger playing together just creates too large of a defensive hole to be sustainable. That doesn't mean either loses value, just that they lose value to us because the mix is untenable.

BTW, I'm not including James Young in this conversation because 1) he was drafted the next year, we don't know what Ainge would have done if Giannis was already on the roster - it's possible he doesn't even draft Young and 2) it's too early to tell whether Young will be any good.

If Milwaukee offered Giannis for Olynyk right now, would anybody turn that down? If not then Ainge simply didn't get the best player. Not bashing him because I actually support Ainge, but the bottom line is he made the wrong decision here.

I think it's too soon to say KO won't be a star. He's two years younger than Zeller, whom Stevens last night said is still "a puppy". Ainge is probably a 'B+' drafter and an 'A-' GM. And I don't see how Danny's hypothetically picking Giannis would have affected his selection of Young--which I project will prove to be one of his home-run picks.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 07:59:10 AM by clover »

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2014, 09:45:57 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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It's possible to lament the Celtics not drafting Giannis and still think Olynyk is/will be a solid player. However, if the objective is to get the most valuable/best player you can, as of now it seems Ainge failed. Giannis right now has much more value than Olynyk. Giannis is a guy who could possibly be a centerpiece in a deal for a star, while Olynyk is just a nice role player.

If the objective is "just come away with something" then of course Ainge succeeded by taking the safer pick Olynyk. He is probably not going to be a bust, but he will also not be a star.

It's too bad, because Giannis would have accelerated the rebuild and not only because he has more talent. He has more value than Olynyk as a trade commodity and doesn't play the same position as Sullinger. Green could have been dealt this season and you'd have an obvious replacement there. It's evident now that Olynyk and Sullinger playing together just creates too large of a defensive hole to be sustainable. That doesn't mean either loses value, just that they lose value to us because the mix is untenable.

BTW, I'm not including James Young in this conversation because 1) he was drafted the next year, we don't know what Ainge would have done if Giannis was already on the roster - it's possible he doesn't even draft Young and 2) it's too early to tell whether Young will be any good.

If Milwaukee offered Giannis for Olynyk right now, would anybody turn that down? If not then Ainge simply didn't get the best player. Not bashing him because I actually support Ainge, but the bottom line is he made the wrong decision here.
as has been brought out before, THAT depends on what the decision was. to simply say that ainge needed to maximum the celtics talent does not take into account that there are various measures and criteria that go into such a decision. it rarely is a simple either/or choice.

if ainge is looking at player A and sees "high ceiling, high risk of bust" and then sees player B as "very likely high floor, ok ceiling" he makes a choice. if, if, if player A pans out, then A is the right choice. but if player A washes out, then what are the celtics left with aside from a wasted pick and a set back in the rebuilding plan?

on the other hand, player B may never achieve the ceiling of player A, but perhaps the odds of player B becoming a viable, usable, valuable nba player is much greater. the odds of being a bust are much lower, thinks ainge. so, yes, ainge MIGHT miss out on a higher ceiling player by picking B instead of A, but ainge may be thinking "a good player in the hand is worth two high potential busts." and with this high floor player (player B), the rebuilding plan can move ahead.

on draft night i hoped ainge would pick antetokounmpo... but i am a "swing for the fences" type of guy. yet, i fully understand ainge's decision. it was a reasonable, rational, and understandable decision. he played the odds to ensure the highest chance of walking away with a good player instead of swinging and possibly missing on a higher ceiling player.

and lets face it, olly is not some sort of booby prize. thus far he has done fairly well as an nba player.

i dont blame ainge or disparage his choice here even if i disagree. often it is possible to disagree and have no one be wrong. perhaps that does not provide the drama that often pops up in the online-chat world, but so be it.
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Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2014, 10:41:30 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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It's possible to lament the Celtics not drafting Giannis and still think Olynyk is/will be a solid player. However, if the objective is to get the most valuable/best player you can, as of now it seems Ainge failed. Giannis right now has much more value than Olynyk. Giannis is a guy who could possibly be a centerpiece in a deal for a star, while Olynyk is just a nice role player.

If the objective is "just come away with something" then of course Ainge succeeded by taking the safer pick Olynyk. He is probably not going to be a bust, but he will also not be a star.

It's too bad, because Giannis would have accelerated the rebuild and not only because he has more talent. He has more value than Olynyk as a trade commodity and doesn't play the same position as Sullinger. Green could have been dealt this season and you'd have an obvious replacement there. It's evident now that Olynyk and Sullinger playing together just creates too large of a defensive hole to be sustainable. That doesn't mean either loses value, just that they lose value to us because the mix is untenable.

BTW, I'm not including James Young in this conversation because 1) he was drafted the next year, we don't know what Ainge would have done if Giannis was already on the roster - it's possible he doesn't even draft Young and 2) it's too early to tell whether Young will be any good.

If Milwaukee offered Giannis for Olynyk right now, would anybody turn that down? If not then Ainge simply didn't get the best player. Not bashing him because I actually support Ainge, but the bottom line is he made the wrong decision here.
as has been brought out before, THAT depends on what the decision was. to simply say that ainge needed to maximum the celtics talent does not take into account that there are various measures and criteria that go into such a decision. it rarely is a simple either/or choice.

if ainge is looking at player A and sees "high ceiling, high risk of bust" and then sees player B as "very likely high floor, ok ceiling" he makes a choice. if, if, if player A pans out, then A is the right choice. but if player A washes out, then what are the celtics left with aside from a wasted pick and a set back in the rebuilding plan?

on the other hand, player B may never achieve the ceiling of player A, but perhaps the odds of player B becoming a viable, usable, valuable nba player is much greater. the odds of being a bust are much lower, thinks ainge. so, yes, ainge MIGHT miss out on a higher ceiling player by picking B instead of A, but ainge may be thinking "a good player in the hand is worth two high potential busts." and with this high floor player (player B), the rebuilding plan can move ahead.

on draft night i hoped ainge would pick antetokounmpo... but i am a "swing for the fences" type of guy. yet, i fully understand ainge's decision. it was a reasonable, rational, and understandable decision. he played the odds to ensure the highest chance of walking away with a good player instead of swinging and possibly missing on a higher ceiling player.

and lets face it, olly is not some sort of booby prize. thus far he has done fairly well as an nba player.

i dont blame ainge or disparage his choice here even if i disagree. often it is possible to disagree and have no one be wrong. perhaps that does not provide the drama that often pops up in the online-chat world, but so be it.

We were in the first year of a rebuild (Pierce/Garnett were dealt the day of the draft I believe) so I would definitely say the strategy should have been to take the high-ceiling guy who would take longer to develop. Even if the team were contending I'd still say take the guy with more potential because the NBA is a talent-driven league. The difference in value between a guy who is showing he could be a star and a guy who is nice but has no star potential is massive.

I don't think this is really complicated. All I'm saying is Ainge did not get the best player available around his draft position and that should be the criteria. If his criteria was different than that then he needs to question it.

The way you're describing it, Ainge did not have access to scouting tapes or workouts, nor did he have over 30 years of experience playing/coaching/scouting to help him determine who would be the best player out of Olynyk and Giannis. Since he didn't have these tools he simply chose the player who objectively had less chance of being a bust.

Seems to me that kind of defense of Danny is almost insulting. It's like Ainge thought to himself, "Well gosh since I don't actually have an opinion on which one of these two will actually be better, I better take the safer option." It would be more respectful to say Ainge simply liked Olynyk better and that was that.

Again, I'm not trying to be overly critical of Ainge. I know "fail" is a strong word but if the objective is to get the best player and he didn't do it, then you can only say he failed in that regard. He didn't fail the objective of coming out with something, he just didn't get the best player.

To me, it doesn't matter who was deemed riskier because his entire job is to have an opinion on which prospect will ultimately be better. It's not like he's the same as one of us Celticsblog schmoes scouring draftexpress.com and nbdraft.net and pretending to have an informed opinion. It's quite possible to the Bucks Giannis was not considered risky at all!

Anyway, picking safe is the easiest way to make sure you have a team full of nice players but no stars. But no one could say that of the Celtics right now, could they? =)

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2014, 10:54:43 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I want to also say that a deal centered around Giannis would have been a much more competitive offer for Love and might have been enough to get it done during that period where it wasn't clear the Cavs were going to get LeBron and Wiggins was not expendable.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2014, 11:10:16 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2014, 11:28:13 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Who has actually watched Giannis play?  I have not that much but what I have seen of him he is lost on defense.  He may figure it out but he has a ways to go.  Lots of potential and athleticism but too early to award a gold star for drafting him.

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2014, 11:55:37 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Here we have the same group who were infatuated with Doc Rivers kid .    Meh.....

His name sounds line a strain of foot fungus or unmentionable disease .

Re: Looks like Giannis is starting to live up to the hype
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2014, 12:11:01 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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It's possible to lament the Celtics not drafting Giannis and still think Olynyk is/will be a solid player. However, if the objective is to get the most valuable/best player you can, as of now it seems Ainge failed. Giannis right now has much more value than Olynyk. Giannis is a guy who could possibly be a centerpiece in a deal for a star, while Olynyk is just a nice role player.

If the objective is "just come away with something" then of course Ainge succeeded by taking the safer pick Olynyk. He is probably not going to be a bust, but he will also not be a star.

It's too bad, because Giannis would have accelerated the rebuild and not only because he has more talent. He has more value than Olynyk as a trade commodity and doesn't play the same position as Sullinger. Green could have been dealt this season and you'd have an obvious replacement there. It's evident now that Olynyk and Sullinger playing together just creates too large of a defensive hole to be sustainable. That doesn't mean either loses value, just that they lose value to us because the mix is untenable.

BTW, I'm not including James Young in this conversation because 1) he was drafted the next year, we don't know what Ainge would have done if Giannis was already on the roster - it's possible he doesn't even draft Young and 2) it's too early to tell whether Young will be any good.

If Milwaukee offered Giannis for Olynyk right now, would anybody turn that down? If not then Ainge simply didn't get the best player. Not bashing him because I actually support Ainge, but the bottom line is he made the wrong decision here.

Gianni's played in Greece an unknown basketball league so far the only thing that's going for him is his youth and the fact he's still growing if you're lament Anige for not taking him then why aren't you bashing all the other gms that passed him it was a weak draft after all and I don't think trade including Gianni's for love would be that competitive