Rondo or Noah?

[AB_Celtic]

This is not a trade suggestion.



What I'm asking is if you are building a team from scratch, and have a choice to build around Rajon Rondo or Joakim Noah, who do you pick?

Each has been called an ultra role player: a guy who can't be the go-to scorer, but is elite in every other aspect of the game. Both are among the best passers, rebounders, and defenders at their respective positions. Both are leaders and step up their game in crunch time.

The easy answer here might be "there are more good PGs than Cs in the NBA." But I am hoping for a more in-depth conversation than that

[playdream]

position-wise i will choose a C
but i like Rondo more than Noah so that's it

[2short]

I like Noah and want him on our team.  If I had to choose I'd go with Rondo, he's proven he can take over a game on the level of the best players in the league.  Also his bb iq will age well even at pg position (much like stockton, kidd or magic).  Noah's game is good all around, great in some aspects but a lot of his game comes from his non stop motor and athletic play.  Both of those will decrease as he ages/injuries.

[TheFlex]

Rondo. Noah's position is more valuable, so there's an argument to be made there, but Rondo is a far better player when healthy. It's amazing how people have so soon forgotten just how special Rondo can be. He's a guy I want in my corner in the playoffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndyfsS0bFK8

[kozlodoev]

Rondo. Noah's position is more valuable, so there's an argument to be made there, but Rondo is a far better player when healthy.

I'm sorry, the highlighted just isn't true. The only reason why I wouldn't trade Rondo for Noah up front yesterday is because Noah can't seem to be able to stay in one piece.

And in the "war of highlights" and "how quickly people forget" department, I have this for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtMslUPi2g

[D.o.s.]

I pick Noah because a defensively minded center is arguably the most important hole to fill on an EC team.

[TheFlex]

Rondo. Noah's position is more valuable, so there's an argument to be made there, but Rondo is a far better player when healthy.

I'm sorry, the highlighted just isn't true. The only reason why I wouldn't trade Rondo for Noah up front yesterday is because Noah can't seem to be able to stay in one piece.

I would take 2012 Rondo over 2013 Noah and we're seeing the return of 2012 Rondo.

edit: In response to your video: I never said Noah wasn't a good or even a great player. He's a top 15-20 player when healthy. I just think Rondo is a top 10 player when healthy.

[D.o.s.]

we're seeing the return of 2012 Rondo.

Any chance you could elaborate on this?

[TheTruthFot18]

Rondo. Noah's position is more valuable, so there's an argument to be made there, but Rondo is a far better player when healthy. It's amazing how people have so soon forgotten just how special Rondo can be. He's a guy I want in my corner in the playoffs.

+1. Really like Noah. One of the few center's right now I'd actually want on this team. But ya I think both can be 1b type players but Rondo has the ability to be a 1a guy when its on the line

[TheFlex]

we're seeing the return of 2012 Rondo.

Any chance you could elaborate on this?

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantasybasketball/update/24783635/celtics-pg-rajon-rondo-off-to-historic-start:

He's the first player since Magic Johnson in 1983 to record at least 35 assists and 25 rebounds in the first three games of a season, per ESPN.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics_nba/boston_celtics/2014/11/celtics_notebook_rajon_rondo_s_groove_yields_triple_double

Rajon Rondo’s first triple-double of the season, also the 30th of his career, didn’t exactly land in the midst of glory last night.

He had 13 points, 10 rebounds and 15 assists, but the feat was obscured by the Celtics’ third straight loss, a 110-107 setback to Toronto.

The point guard’s night did highlight one emerging fact. He’s already in a far better groove than at any time last season, when he still was recovering from ACL surgery.

“He’s healthy, and last year he was on one leg. He was basically out there just trying to help us out,” Jeff Green said.

The difference already can be measured.

“Awesome. It’s always awesome having Rondo on the court,” Jared Sullinger said. “He’s always going to look for that cut. It’s tremendous, totally different this year. He’s running the ball, pushing the ball, he’s playing well. He looks great.”

In 2011-12, Rondo recorded six triple-doubles. In 2012-13, five. He's off to a similar start this year -- unlike the 30 games last year -- averaging close to a triple double: 9.3 ppg, 12.5 apg, 9.0 rpg. The rebounding numbers are unlikely to stay at such high levels (though he will be one of the best rebounding guards in the game), but I expect his assists to stay above the double digit mark and his points to jump above the double digit mark as well.

Some advanced stats for you (bball-ref):

Value Over Replacement Player:

2011-12: 2.1
2012-13: 1.4
2013-14: 0.1
2014-15 (so far): 2.9

Box Plus-Minus:

2011-12: 1.4
2012-13: 1.8
2013-14: 0.1
2014-15: 2.0

Interestingly enough, his DBPM (defensive box plus-minus) is at 2.5 so far this season compared to -0.3 last season and 0.7 the season before that. His career high is 2.6 from 2007-08. Part of this could be a re-dedication to defense, and another part is probably playing alongside Bradley and Smart. His OBPM this year is an ugly -0.5, but a large part of that is the fact that we have a bad team that loses games and therefore scores less points than our opponent.

His AST% (percentage of teammates' field goals he assisted while on the floor) is slightly down from prior years, but I'm guessing that has to do with having above-average passing big men on the floor and Stevens' system emphasizing ball movement in general (and thus the team doesn't rely on Rondo to create every shot).

It's very hard to analyze Rondo's metrics this year and compare it to past years because of his ACL injury and the fact that the teams he's been on in years past are radically different than the one he's currently leading. One thing that we can see, though: In 2013-14 he shot .544 within 3 feet of the rim and .324 within 3-10 feet. This year's he's shooting .636 and .364, respectively, which would suggest he's regaining 2012-13-level explosiveness (that year he shot .598 and .427, respectively). We can only hope these sorts of trends continue.

[D.o.s.]

TP for the analysis. Of course, if this continues, we may be in for a deluge of 'Good player but does he really help the team' posts/talking head-isms.

[TheFlex]

TP for the analysis. Of course, if this continues, we may be in for a deluge of 'Good player but does he really help the team' posts/talking head-isms.

Thanks, and hey, can we expect anything else out of discussion regarding a polarizing figure such as Rondo? I'll take those posts over the current ones claiming he's an overrated role player.

[kozlodoev]

His AST% (percentage of teammates' field goals he assisted while on the floor) is slightly down from prior years, but I'm guessing that has to do with having above-average passing big men on the floor and Stevens' system emphasizing ball movement in general (and thus the team doesn't rely on Rondo to create every shot).

I take it you are going to claim that Garnett wasn't an "above-average passing big" or that Doc Rivers never subscribed to ball movement -- and that it is not at all possible that Rondo's HoF teammates made him look better than he actually is.

It's very hard to analyze Rondo's metrics this year and compare it to past years because of his ACL injury and the fact that the teams he's been on in years past are radically different than the one he's currently leading. One thing that we can see, though: In 2013-14 he shot .544 within 3 feet of the rim and .324 within 3-10 feet. This year's he's shooting .636 and .364, respectively, which would suggest he's regaining 2012-13-level explosiveness (that year he shot .598 and .427, respectively). We can only hope these sorts of trends continue.

You realize that this "trend" you're discussing is based on the fact that he's made 7 of his 11 layups so far, right?

[D.o.s.]

Small sample size noise is a given at this point -- but it's better than a season with no sample at all.

I think that teammates have the same effect on players as players do on coaches, that is to say good teammates make players look better, and good players make coaches look better, but you can still do a decent job of looking at other factors to identify if players (and coaches) are actually good or not.

[Who]

That is very tough.

I guess I'd lean towards Rondo - because unlike Noah - Rondo has shown himself capable of taking over a playoff series, or being the best player in a playoff series against a top opponent (like LeBron and the Cavs in 2010) and winning series.

But I do think they are both pretty close. Rondo the more dynamic threat. Capable of greater heights. Noah perhaps a bit more consistent. Less of the regular lows that Rondo seems to have now and again.