Should we start Smart over Rondo?

[GetLucky]

And how many teams built this way win rings? Unless you got lebron, wade, bosh

Rondo imo is not a max player.  Even bosh, wade and lebron on their own and without another all star was able to get their teams into the playoffs. Rondo should prove he can do this first before asking for max.  Not pull another kevin love.

"How many teams win championships this way, other then the team that has represented the Eastern Conference in the NBA Finals for the past four years? Anyone have a recent example?" 

[Eddie20]

option 2:  Rondo is traded for a starting center and we start Smart and AB.

I see this as the best route, but our trade options are limited. The one that probably fits the best would be Detroit. Something like...

Rondo
Wallace
1st rd pick 2015 (LAC)

for

Monroe
Jennings
Butler
Jerebko (expiring deal)
1st rd pick 2015
1st rd pick 2017

Rondo would likely re-sign since it's not a small market and he would be alongside Smith.

We would start Smart, allowing him to further gain experience. Monroe would immediately start alongside Sullinger providing better roster balance. His game, particularly his good passing, seems like an excellent fit in Stevens' offense and would give us a trio of good passing bigs along with Olynyk and Sullinger. Jennings value might be able to be rehabilitated like Crawford's was, which could provide a decent return as his contract would be reasonable (8M) and expiring next season. Butler's deal is not expiring either (2 years left), but at only 4.5M it's also easier to potentially trade than Wallace's would. Plus, Butler has a lot more left in the tank than the running on fumes Wallace. We dump Wallace's contract. We move up significantly in the 2015pick swap, likely from the late 20's to mid-teens, and add an extra 1st pick in 2017.

This, however, can't be accomplished until mid-December because of the restrictions of signed players.

That deal almost certainly will never happen.

1) Monroe is on his Qualifying Offer.  Among other things, that means he has "no-trade" power.  Why would he want to go to a team that unloads Rondo -- a PG who could probably get Monroe a TON of easy buckets?

2) Also because of the QO, any team that gets Monroe via trade does NOT get his Bird Rights.  Monroe is a pure, unrestricted FA next summer.  So trading for Monroe gives you NO negotiating advantage towards signing him next summer.

There is literally no reason to give up any significant assets to trade for Monroe when you can -- IF he even wants to come here -- sign him for simple money next Summer.

Detroit has no real leverage.  No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Monroe -- plus he controls where he goes.

If you really want to try to lure Monroe, your best bet is to make sure you have a roster that he will find attractive.   For a player like Monroe, the Celtic roster would almost certainly look more attractive with a signed Rondo on it.

Whether Monroe ends up as a Celtic comes down to two very simple things: 

(a) Does Danny want him?  and
(b) Does Monroe want to come to Boston?   

As long as BOTH those things are true, then Monroe WILL be a Celtic next year.  If just ONE of those things is not, then he won't.

No trade necessary.

That doesn't rule out trading for him before next Summer - but if so, it won't be by sending any big important assets for him.

You think Monroe would rather play in Detroit where they already have Drummond and Smith clogging up not only space, but minutes? If anything, I think he would want to be traded to a place like Boston where he would start, get heavy minutes, and showcase himself off for potential suitors.

I think Monroe losing his Bird rights in being dealt is pretty much irrelevant. Clearly Detroit doesn't have him in his longterm plans, so them re-signing him is extremely unlikely to happen. The reason he accepted the qualifying offer in the first place is to be unrestricted after this year. Nothing will change in what Detroit offered and what Monroe wants.

It's ironic that you stated...

Detroit has no real leverage. No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Monroe -- plus he controls where he goes.

Doesn't the same thing apply to Rondo? Only difference being that the NBA is full of PG's and rumor has it Rondo wouldn't not re-sign in a small market (see Sarcamento rumor).

1) I never said that Monroe "would rather play in Detroit".    I stated that he has yes/no control over whether he gets traded to wherever.

2) Monroe losing his Bird Rights is VERY relevant to any team that traded for him because they would not have a negotiating advantage over any other team when it came to retaining him.   Bird Rights are worth tens of millions of dollars difference in what kind of contract you can offer, a 20% longer potential contract term and even a potential No-Trade clause.   Whether you get those rights with a player dramatically changes their value in trade.

3) No, the same thing does NOT apply to Rondo because the Celtics HAVE Bird Rights on Rondo.   That means that they will have a huge negotiating advantage for retaining Rondo next summer if they keep him to that point and they can be transferred with Rondo if they decide to trade him before the deadline.  That greatly boosts Rondo's value right now over if he was just playing on the QO, like Monroe.

1) Ok, that's factual.

2) Disagree. It's irrelevant. Monroe is leaving Detroit in the summer so wherever he goes the team will sign him using their available cap space. His Bird rights sounds nice, but Detroit is going to let him walk.

3) You missed my point. You said " Detroit has no real leverage. No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Monroe -- plus he controls where he goes. " The same thing applies to Rondo. Boston has no real leverage. No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Rondo -- plus he controls where he re-signs. Rondo has all the leverage. We either pony up and give a 5 year max, or near max deal, which takes him to 34 by the end of the contract, or we lose him outright.

[crimson_stallion]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

[kozlodoev]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

[Lucky17]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

Jason Kidd? I'm guessing.

[crimson_stallion]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

Who was the last who practically averaged a triple double?

There have been a number of centers who have made all star games despite not averaging much offensively - Ben Wallace is the first that springs to mind.

If its good enough for a center,  it's good enough for a point guard.

[Finkelskyhook]

If the C's were so brazen to start Smart over Rondo....They might end up forfeiting their lottery pick altogether.....Instead of drafting in the worst possible position when they shamelessly overtly  tanked the year pre-Thibs, Allen, and Garnett.

[mmmmm]

option 2:  Rondo is traded for a starting center and we start Smart and AB.

I see this as the best route, but our trade options are limited. The one that probably fits the best would be Detroit. Something like...

Rondo
Wallace
1st rd pick 2015 (LAC)

for

Monroe
Jennings
Butler
Jerebko (expiring deal)
1st rd pick 2015
1st rd pick 2017

Rondo would likely re-sign since it's not a small market and he would be alongside Smith.

We would start Smart, allowing him to further gain experience. Monroe would immediately start alongside Sullinger providing better roster balance. His game, particularly his good passing, seems like an excellent fit in Stevens' offense and would give us a trio of good passing bigs along with Olynyk and Sullinger. Jennings value might be able to be rehabilitated like Crawford's was, which could provide a decent return as his contract would be reasonable (8M) and expiring next season. Butler's deal is not expiring either (2 years left), but at only 4.5M it's also easier to potentially trade than Wallace's would. Plus, Butler has a lot more left in the tank than the running on fumes Wallace. We dump Wallace's contract. We move up significantly in the 2015pick swap, likely from the late 20's to mid-teens, and add an extra 1st pick in 2017.

This, however, can't be accomplished until mid-December because of the restrictions of signed players.

That deal almost certainly will never happen.

1) Monroe is on his Qualifying Offer.  Among other things, that means he has "no-trade" power.  Why would he want to go to a team that unloads Rondo -- a PG who could probably get Monroe a TON of easy buckets?

2) Also because of the QO, any team that gets Monroe via trade does NOT get his Bird Rights.  Monroe is a pure, unrestricted FA next summer.  So trading for Monroe gives you NO negotiating advantage towards signing him next summer.

There is literally no reason to give up any significant assets to trade for Monroe when you can -- IF he even wants to come here -- sign him for simple money next Summer.

Detroit has no real leverage.  No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Monroe -- plus he controls where he goes.

If you really want to try to lure Monroe, your best bet is to make sure you have a roster that he will find attractive.   For a player like Monroe, the Celtic roster would almost certainly look more attractive with a signed Rondo on it.

Whether Monroe ends up as a Celtic comes down to two very simple things: 

(a) Does Danny want him?  and
(b) Does Monroe want to come to Boston?   

As long as BOTH those things are true, then Monroe WILL be a Celtic next year.  If just ONE of those things is not, then he won't.

No trade necessary.

That doesn't rule out trading for him before next Summer - but if so, it won't be by sending any big important assets for him.

You think Monroe would rather play in Detroit where they already have Drummond and Smith clogging up not only space, but minutes? If anything, I think he would want to be traded to a place like Boston where he would start, get heavy minutes, and showcase himself off for potential suitors.

I think Monroe losing his Bird rights in being dealt is pretty much irrelevant. Clearly Detroit doesn't have him in his longterm plans, so them re-signing him is extremely unlikely to happen. The reason he accepted the qualifying offer in the first place is to be unrestricted after this year. Nothing will change in what Detroit offered and what Monroe wants.

It's ironic that you stated...

Detroit has no real leverage. No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Monroe -- plus he controls where he goes.

Doesn't the same thing apply to Rondo? Only difference being that the NBA is full of PG's and rumor has it Rondo wouldn't not re-sign in a small market (see Sarcamento rumor).

1) I never said that Monroe "would rather play in Detroit".    I stated that he has yes/no control over whether he gets traded to wherever.

2) Monroe losing his Bird Rights is VERY relevant to any team that traded for him because they would not have a negotiating advantage over any other team when it came to retaining him.   Bird Rights are worth tens of millions of dollars difference in what kind of contract you can offer, a 20% longer potential contract term and even a potential No-Trade clause.   Whether you get those rights with a player dramatically changes their value in trade.

3) No, the same thing does NOT apply to Rondo because the Celtics HAVE Bird Rights on Rondo.   That means that they will have a huge negotiating advantage for retaining Rondo next summer if they keep him to that point and they can be transferred with Rondo if they decide to trade him before the deadline.  That greatly boosts Rondo's value right now over if he was just playing on the QO, like Monroe.

1) Ok, that's factual.

2) Disagree. It's irrelevant. Monroe is leaving Detroit in the summer so wherever he goes the team will sign him using their available cap space. His Bird rights sounds nice, but Detroit is going to let him walk.

3) You missed my point. You said " Detroit has no real leverage. No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Monroe -- plus he controls where he goes. " The same thing applies to Rondo. Boston has no real leverage. No one is going to give up big assets for a one-year rental of Rondo -- plus he controls where he re-signs. Rondo has all the leverage. We either pony up and give a 5 year max, or near max deal, which takes him to 34 by the end of the contract, or we lose him outright.

I don't know if I can spell this out any more plainly but, again:

2) No, it is extremely relevant.  If Detroit had Monroe's Bird Rights they could trade him and the receiving team would receive those Bird Rights, which would give that team a huge negotiating advantage when it comes to re-signing Monroe.  This is a big piece of value that they DON'T have.  It's absence is relevant and a big factor in why Detroit has no leverage to gain anything of significant value in return for Monroe.  Further, Monroe also has "no-trade" power over any possible trade they MIGHT make during this season to try to scrape any possible value out of him.

3) Again, Rondo's situation is extremely different.  The Celtics DO have his Bird Rights.  This both gives them a potentially huge negotiating advantage next Summer should they decide to retain Rondo or alternatively provides a significant prop up to his value should they decide to trade him before the deadline.   The first point is easily worth tens of millions of dollars of negotiating "leverage".  And unlike Monroe, Rondo does NOT have the ability to veto any trade.  He can obviously affect the trade value if he were to signal his intention to resign or not with the destination team.  But that is a far, far cry from having complete yes/no power to stop such a trade.   To keep asserting that the Celtics have no leverage here, comparable to Detroit's situation with Monroe is blatantly wrong.

[kozlodoev]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

Who was the last who practically averaged a triple double?

There have been a number of centers who have made all star games despite not averaging much offensively - Ben Wallace is the first that springs to mind.

If its good enough for a center,  it's good enough for a point guard.

Many players have made all-star teams by being completely dominant on one side of the ball. If you agree Rondo "isn't doing much offensively" based on his scoring, then he certainly won't make the ASG with his defense. It's akin to suggesting Reggie Evans should be an all-star because he could get every rebound in sight.

[Juneauz]

Funny.
Now let's move on to some serious talk.

[mmmmm]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

Who was the last who practically averaged a triple double?

There have been a number of centers who have made all star games despite not averaging much offensively - Ben Wallace is the first that springs to mind.

If its good enough for a center,  it's good enough for a point guard.

Many players have made all-star teams by being completely dominant on one side of the ball. If you agree Rondo "isn't doing much offensively" based on his scoring, then he certainly won't make the ASG with his defense. It's akin to suggesting Reggie Evans should be an all-star because he could get every rebound in sight.

Did someone actually 'agree Rondo "isn't doing much offensively"', though?

That looks a bit like a wishful straw man.

[BballTim]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

  Who's the last one to average as many assists as Rondo is and not make the all-star team?

[mgent]

How many players have averaged more assists in their career period? (or question mark)

He's got to be up there on the list by now.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Rondo actually helps make his own assists, the defense has to adjust to what he does..so he can control them, he directs the players, like a pg should, he is patient, and sees the whole floor...he makes it look easy..yet no one else does it, he could shoot as well as anyone, shooting is easier than dribbling and setting guys up...most shooters care less where the rebound goes....look to Carmelo and kobe for who is the pg they want an why.....you'd think they know....!!!

[Celtics18]

Unless we get back another all-star level player, no I won't be glad IF Rondo is traded.  It will just mean that the re-build is longer.

The jury is still out on whether Rondo is an "all-star level player" at this stage of his career.

Yeah,  it's a tough call when you start the first four games of the season averaging a triple double.

Who's the last all-star guard who averaged 9 ppg?

Who was the last who practically averaged a triple double?

There have been a number of centers who have made all star games despite not averaging much offensively - Ben Wallace is the first that springs to mind.

If its good enough for a center,  it's good enough for a point guard.

Many players have made all-star teams by being completely dominant on one side of the ball. If you agree Rondo "isn't doing much offensively" based on his scoring, then he certainly won't make the ASG with his defense. It's akin to suggesting Reggie Evans should be an all-star because he could get every rebound in sight.

I don't know who agrees that Rondo "isn't doing much offensively."  Those who feel that Rondo could be in the discussion for an All Star probably don't.

12.5 assists per game:  To me, that's doing a heck of a lot offensively.