I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG

[Tr1boy]

Rondo has not proven he can lead a team to wins. He has proven that surrounded by three future HOF ,he can take adv of the space he has to work with on the floor.

In 2012-2013 season when the torch was passed to rondo, how did we do? How many games did we lose?? When rondo went out for the season due to injury , what happened?

Last season yes injury was a factor but minus not being 100 percent healthy the guy played the exact same crappy way as the season prior(tommy ripped him apart for a reason). Just tally up triple double or near triple double numbers for himself,  poor effort on the defensive end, yelling at everyone else to run around. So suddenly this season (new contract coming up), he is going to play differently?

Marcus Smart has shown me more consistent effort in the defensive end in these past two pre season games than Rondo has shown in any one game in the last two seasons.   Its going to be good times (in nov) to watch this team play great ind/team d, share the ball in the offensive end and try to succeed as a team

[Kadin]

Personally I'm more interested in how well they play together, rather than who is better than who.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, what I saw was the ball stopping moving all around the floor. The defense had it easier, and Rondo presses the defense much more. Also the turn overs.....Rondo is much better as a pg, and smart will be good as the 2. Rondo is much better on layups, passes, and getting people to MOVE. Our team stood flat footed a lot, because no one knew how and when to pass.

[blink]

would that be the 'thinker' or the 'stinker'?

Definitely the thinker.  Hey, I could have gone with Picard

nooo you did well.  the statue is more appropriate for this thread.   haha.

[Donoghus]

Personally I'm more interested in how well they play together, rather than who is better than who.

Yeah, I'm really interested in seeing the dynamic out there when those two are on the floor together.  If they can coexist, this whole "either/or" stupidity should be put to bed.  Of course, it won't on these parts, though.   

[Tr1boy]

Personally I'm more interested in how well they play together, rather than who is better than who.

Yeah, I'm really interested in seeing the dynamic out there when those two are on the floor together.  If they can coexist, this whole "either/or" stupidity should be put to bed.  Of course, it won't on these parts, though.   

how can they coexist when ball hoggin Rondo has the ball until there is like 8 sec left in the clock??

Alot of the time the pattern is, 1st walk up with the ball to mid court, then starts to yell at everyone to go this way, that way.  Passes the ball to someone for a sec, then asks for the ball back.  So by now we have about 10 sec left.  Rondo starts to panic, tries to pull in multiple defenders towards him and gives whoever gets the ball 6-8 seconds to get a bucket in

It can get beyond frustrating to watch this kind of basketball

On the defensive end, Rondo gets back to our side of the half court, letting the opposing D run up with the ball (and save seconds), then he starts to swipe at the ball/provide too much space instead of moving his feet/sticking to his man.  His head is moving left and right non stop (for opportunities to grab a steal), his man finds ways to get by him or utilizing the PNR to get free , then gives everyone else on our team stress to stop the man that gets through him. 

After the game, guys start telling reporters that they have to play better.  They need to play better D.  We need to play better. When one guy in alot of instances in the game is the reason the problems happen.    I dread the thought of Rondo messing up what this team will build up from now to mid Nov.    A part of me hopes Rondo changes his approach (plays hard, does not care about stats) and can work with this team, but i'm not hopeful.

[Beat LA]

I disagree with both but this is food for thought.
Green is very different from Turner. Green is more athletic and a better defender, Turner is a better ball handler and can play the 1,  and the list can go on... I think they can co-exist in the same team no problem.
What is more interesting, is that you seem to make the case that Smart has the same toolkit as AB but in a better version. I think it is too  early to say.
But I really think you underestimate AB. If he improves his jump shot he will be one of the best 3 and D guards of the league. And in any case, with this new contract we have invested in him big time- I assume they gave really serious to what they were doing bcs it wasn't like half the NBA was going after AB. This contract looked more like a prophylactic move- let's sign him now before his skills become obvious to the rest of the league. I do trust in  Ainge's judgement when it comes to evaluating players who have been playing in the team for some time.

If you're replying to my comments, let me just say that I like Turner over Green for one simple reason - his consistent effort lol.  That's what we've come to, unfortunately.  Green is consistently inconsistent, both in terms of production and effort, while Turner has better skills and greater versatility, imo.  Green hasn't grown at all as a player since he's been here, but Turner is still relatively young with plenty of room to grow.  What happens if he becomes a good 3-point shooter?  Whether he's coming off the bench or not, I think that Turner is our best bet to be the go-to guy down the stretch, what with his ability to create his own shot, get to the basket, and make plays for others, which are skills that we didn't have once Ainge traded Pierce.  I'm not expecting Turner to be a closer, but he does have some of that ability, and at least now we might have a shot at winning in the closing moments of a close game.

As for Bradley, he's already proven to be an excellent shooter, in particular via the pick and roll, and he does move extremely well without the ball, but aside from one in-and-out dribble last night, I haven't seen ANY improvement with his ball handling, nor has he gotten better as a passer.  He can't become a black hole, especially if he's a guard.  Passing is one of the most fundamental skills necessary for playing either spot in the back court, but in 4 years he has never improved in that area, and then Smart steps in and does those things from day 1 and I'm thinking, "why did we re-sign Bradley, again?"  I do hope that Avery continues to improve, I really do, but I haven't seen anything yet, although it's only been 2 preseason games lol.  Great, I've caught the overreaction fever that has gone viral on this blog (sarcasm) lol.  I just wouldn't get my hopes up. 

[BballTim]

Rondo has not proven he can lead a team to wins. He has proven that surrounded by three future HOF ,he can take adv of the space he has to work with on the floor.

In 2012-2013 season when the torch was passed to rondo, how did we do? How many games did we lose?? When rondo went out for the season due to injury , what happened?

  The torch was passed to Rondo a few years before that. He's led good teams on deep playoff runs. It's true that PP/KG/RA were and still are future HOFers. That was pretty much cemented early in the big three era. "Future HOF" is based on their careers up to then, and isn't really a reflection on their play since then.

[No Nickname]

"Marcus Smart is a better defender than Rondo"
We have yet to determine this. not saying its not true, but rondo is a 2-time all defensive 1st team and 2 time all defensive 2nd team player. not too many players can claim that.

"Smart is younger, more durable."
We dont know the durability thing yet but maybe.

Did Rondo make 2 time all defensive team bc of his steal and rebound #s or was it bc he was an excellent man to man/multi position capable defender??

From what i can remember, Rondo cheated enough times to get those steals.  And if he got burnt luckily he was supported by a tremendous team that really took defense seriously.   Alot of the rebounds he got, KG could of just stood there in the defensive end and it would of fell onto his laps. Yes Rondo did get some timely rebounds.  Yes he got some very important steals. But for me, i rather have a guy that is an excellent man to man defender 1st.  AB for all that he has done, only has a 2nd all defensive team under his belt.  Tony Allen didn't even make the team last season. Nobody really knows what standards are used to make this team.

For me Rondo's true defensive capability or willingness to play hard defense came in the 2012-2013 season , when KG/PP lost a step. Rondo again was just cheating, not playing proper man to man D.  He got burnt this time bc there weren't guys that could bail him out.   Guys like Bruce Bowen, AB, Tony Allen and now Marcus Smart are considered true perimeter defensive mvp's imo.

Oh my god, you nailed it.  These Rondo apologists act like he can do no wrong.  And if you say one negative thing about him you're "a hater."  Red Auerbach, Pete Carill, Phil Jackson, and Greg Popovich would all look at Rondo's defense and shake their heads in disgust.  He goes for the "star play" on defense way too much. Make a steal?  Great!  You look good.  Let your man go past you three out of the other four times?  No one will notice!  Never box your man out on defense and let him go in for offensive rebounds?  Oh, Rondo needs to rest since he does so much everywhere else.  What a joke.

[Tr1boy]

Rondo has not proven he can lead a team to wins. He has proven that surrounded by three future HOF ,he can take adv of the space he has to work with on the floor.

In 2012-2013 season when the torch was passed to rondo, how did we do? How many games did we lose?? When rondo went out for the season due to injury , what happened?

  The torch was passed to Rondo a few years before that. He's led good teams on deep playoff runs. It's true that PP/KG/RA were and still are future HOFers. That was pretty much cemented early in the big three era. "Future HOF" is based on their careers up to then, and isn't really a reflection on their play since then.

I disagree.  KG/PP started to say this is Rondo's team starting from that 2012-2013 season.  Previously this message was not as loud.  Look at PPs stats in 2010-2012 , it was still pretty darn good for a sf in the nba (avg 19 pts a game).   It was still considered "his" team more than it was Rondo's.   Pierce could demand the ball at anytime he really wanted to

By the start of 2012-2013 season, Rondo was the one with the ball more. He was calling the plays and KG/PP became more spot up shooters.  Rivers rarely spoke to Rondo on the sidelines, between plays and gave him freedom in the offensive end.   It worked between PP/KG/Rondo but none of the other guys were getting many touches/involved in the offensive end (which also i believe affected their play on the defensive end). Jeff Green struggled to produce with Rondo as the pg

On the defensive end, with KG's age affecting his play more, he couldn't bail out Rondo . Rondo should of stopped gambling, played suffocating defense and BAILED out KG. We were a bad defensive team. Until Rondo was injured and AB/Lee went nuts on their opponents on the defensive end.   The team played better team defense as a result. How many transition baskets did we score?

Rondo just can't play the same lazy way moving fwd.  Like Tommy said boldly last season, he has to break the bad habits he learned.     He can't expect guys to bail him out, or have guys on offense running around like headless chickens, to get that one guy wide open for a jump shot or layup.  He has to put in more effort and take of the details himself.   If a new guy is struggling in the offensive end, Rondo should be the first one to set picks/other off ball plays and set an example. On the defensive end, stick to his man, suffocate him, to set an example of how championship defense is played.

[D.o.s.]

"Marcus Smart is a better defender than Rondo"
We have yet to determine this. not saying its not true, but rondo is a 2-time all defensive 1st team and 2 time all defensive 2nd team player. not too many players can claim that.

"Smart is younger, more durable."
We dont know the durability thing yet but maybe.

Did Rondo make 2 time all defensive team bc of his steal and rebound #s or was it bc he was an excellent man to man/multi position capable defender??

From what i can remember, Rondo cheated enough times to get those steals.  And if he got burnt luckily he was supported by a tremendous team that really took defense seriously.   Alot of the rebounds he got, KG could of just stood there in the defensive end and it would of fell onto his laps. Yes Rondo did get some timely rebounds.  Yes he got some very important steals. But for me, i rather have a guy that is an excellent man to man defender 1st.  AB for all that he has done, only has a 2nd all defensive team under his belt.  Tony Allen didn't even make the team last season. Nobody really knows what standards are used to make this team.

For me Rondo's true defensive capability or willingness to play hard defense came in the 2012-2013 season , when KG/PP lost a step. Rondo again was just cheating, not playing proper man to man D.  He got burnt this time bc there weren't guys that could bail him out.   Guys like Bruce Bowen, AB, Tony Allen and now Marcus Smart are considered true perimeter defensive mvp's imo.

Oh my god, you nailed it.  These Rondo apologists act like he can do no wrong.  And if you say one negative thing about him you're "a hater."  Red Auerbach, Pete Carill, Phil Jackson, and Greg Popovich would all look at Rondo's defense and shake their heads in disgust.  He goes for the "star play" on defense way too much. Make a steal?  Great!  You look good.  Let your man go past you three out of the other four times?  No one will notice!  Never box your man out on defense and let him go in for offensive rebounds?  Oh, Rondo needs to rest since he does so much everywhere else.  What a joke.

Typically I bring this out when I'm arguing about Allen Iverson, but steals are arguably one of the most important things you can look at in a basic box score.

Courtesy of the good old FiveThirtyEight:
 http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-hidden-value-of-the-nba-steal/

By this measure, PER vastly undervalues steals. Because steals and baskets seem to be similarly valuable, and there are so many more baskets than steals in a game, it’s hard to see how steals can be all that important. But those steals hold additional value when we predict the impact of the players who get them. A lot more value. So much so that a player’s steals per game is more important to evaluating his worth than his ability to score points, even though steals are so much rarer.

Fascinating article.

[D.o.s.]

And it should be noted that both sides of the Rondo argument are pretty prone to hyperbole.

[Tr1boy]

"Marcus Smart is a better defender than Rondo"
We have yet to determine this. not saying its not true, but rondo is a 2-time all defensive 1st team and 2 time all defensive 2nd team player. not too many players can claim that.

"Smart is younger, more durable."
We dont know the durability thing yet but maybe.

Did Rondo make 2 time all defensive team bc of his steal and rebound #s or was it bc he was an excellent man to man/multi position capable defender??

From what i can remember, Rondo cheated enough times to get those steals.  And if he got burnt luckily he was supported by a tremendous team that really took defense seriously.   Alot of the rebounds he got, KG could of just stood there in the defensive end and it would of fell onto his laps. Yes Rondo did get some timely rebounds.  Yes he got some very important steals. But for me, i rather have a guy that is an excellent man to man defender 1st.  AB for all that he has done, only has a 2nd all defensive team under his belt.  Tony Allen didn't even make the team last season. Nobody really knows what standards are used to make this team.

For me Rondo's true defensive capability or willingness to play hard defense came in the 2012-2013 season , when KG/PP lost a step. Rondo again was just cheating, not playing proper man to man D.  He got burnt this time bc there weren't guys that could bail him out.   Guys like Bruce Bowen, AB, Tony Allen and now Marcus Smart are considered true perimeter defensive mvp's imo.

Oh my god, you nailed it.  These Rondo apologists act like he can do no wrong.  And if you say one negative thing about him you're "a hater."  Red Auerbach, Pete Carill, Phil Jackson, and Greg Popovich would all look at Rondo's defense and shake their heads in disgust.  He goes for the "star play" on defense way too much. Make a steal?  Great!  You look good.  Let your man go past you three out of the other four times?  No one will notice!  Never box your man out on defense and let him go in for offensive rebounds?  Oh, Rondo needs to rest since he does so much everywhere else.  What a joke.

Typically I bring this out when I'm arguing about Allen Iverson, but steals are arguably one of the most important things you can look at in a basic box score.

Courtesy of the good old FiveThirtyEight:
 http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-hidden-value-of-the-nba-steal/

By this measure, PER vastly undervalues steals. Because steals and baskets seem to be similarly valuable, and there are so many more baskets than steals in a game, it’s hard to see how steals can be all that important. But those steals hold additional value when we predict the impact of the players who get them. A lot more value. So much so that a player’s steals per game is more important to evaluating his worth than his ability to score points, even though steals are so much rarer.

Fascinating article.

Yes if you get steals while making sure you stay in front of your man, or  make sure that they don't burn you

[BballTim]

Rondo has not proven he can lead a team to wins. He has proven that surrounded by three future HOF ,he can take adv of the space he has to work with on the floor.

In 2012-2013 season when the torch was passed to rondo, how did we do? How many games did we lose?? When rondo went out for the season due to injury , what happened?

  The torch was passed to Rondo a few years before that. He's led good teams on deep playoff runs. It's true that PP/KG/RA were and still are future HOFers. That was pretty much cemented early in the big three era. "Future HOF" is based on their careers up to then, and isn't really a reflection on their play since then.

I disagree.  KG/PP started to say this is Rondo's team starting from that 2012-2013 season.  Previously this message was not as loud.  Look at PPs stats in 2010-2012 , it was still pretty darn good for a sf in the nba (avg 19 pts a game).   It was still considered "his" team more than it was Rondo's.   Pierce could demand the ball at anytime he really wanted to

By the start of 2012-2013 season, Rondo was the one with the ball more. He was calling the plays and KG/PP became more spot up shooters.  Rivers rarely spoke to Rondo on the sidelines, between plays and gave him freedom in the offensive end.

  Sure, this all happened, just a few years earlier than you remember. Go back to at least the beginning of the 2011 season, where Rondo was threatening Stockton's assist record through the first few months of the season. I'd wonder if you were following the team at the time if you don't think Rondo had the ball as much then as he has since.

[BballTim]

"Marcus Smart is a better defender than Rondo"
We have yet to determine this. not saying its not true, but rondo is a 2-time all defensive 1st team and 2 time all defensive 2nd team player. not too many players can claim that.

"Smart is younger, more durable."
We dont know the durability thing yet but maybe.

Did Rondo make 2 time all defensive team bc of his steal and rebound #s or was it bc he was an excellent man to man/multi position capable defender??

  Rondo was among the best defensive point guards in just about every statistical measure you'd find when he made those all defense teams, not just steals and rebounds. DRtg,defensive win shares, synergy sports numbers, even counterpart production on 82games. The coaches felt he was a top defender, the gms felt he was a top defender and the stats backed them up.