jeff green-heroic playing in shadows

[rollie mass]

of len bias and reggie lewis-i can't imagine playing after heart surgery-this man should be applauded  for what an athlete and human being he is---the sub conscious niggling away and the battering he takes as bostons only real scoring threat-with a makeshift backcourt and revolving door of trades along with no center-thank you jeff green

[Future Celtics Owner]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

[mmmmm]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

[Csfan1984]

He has one of the best dunk compilation vids of youtube. Every C's fan should watch it. Also it is a good preseason watch.

[Sketch5]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

YEah, Greens contract is pretty reasonable compared to a lot of other guys. Especially if you can keep him in that range on the next contract with the new CBA possible going up as high as they are saying.

Green averaged 17 ppg last season. 5 more points and a bit more consistency, and we'd have to pay him over 15mill instead of 9mill. Look at Rudy Gay. Makes 19 mill, averages 3 more points a couple more boards and an assist more at twice the about of money.

[GreenFaith1819]

of len bias and reggie lewis-i can't imagine playing after heart surgery-this man should be applauded  for what an athlete and human being he is---the sub conscious niggling away and the battering he takes as bostons only real scoring threat-with a makeshift backcourt and revolving door of trades along with no center-thank you jeff green

Agreed.

What I've come to realize, after being a Lurker to this blog since 2006 and a full-time member in Oct 09 - is that this Blog needs a whipping boy.



Tony Allen held that title for the longest - and then was promptly missed and revered after he left for MEM.

Now? Jeff Green and Rajon Rondo hold that title, respectively.

[hwangjini_1]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

let's look at some pretty crude stats, just for context. i don't mean this to be the final say in this discussion, but instead to give one way of viewing the question of green being overpaid.

there are about 450 slots for players in the nba (15 people x 30 teams) and only 150 for starters (5 people x 30 teams).

lets shift the chaff from the grain for a moment and only compare green as a starter by position in the nba. there are only 30 slots each for starting pf and sf, his two positions. so, imperfect as this is, let's see how green ranks among those positions in terms of salary.

green currently makes $9.2 million. that would rank him as the 12th highest paid sf in the league and the 13th highest paid pf.  so he is paid more than than many other players for those positions, but his pay is not among the leaders.

overall, he ranked 65th in salary in the nba. there are 150 starter slots in the nba, meaning comparatively in this context his salary, again, is more than many other starters, but not among the leaders.

basically, green is being paid slightly above league mean for his positions.

now let's see his stats and see whether they match his "slightly above mean salary."

as a small forward:
in pts/game green ranked 8th in the league.
in rbs/game green ranked 22nd in the league. (and 5th on the celtics!)
in assists green ranked 21st in the league.

for scoring, green is providing a return higher than his salary ranking - 8th in points, 12th in salary. but in rbs and assists, no matter how you stack it up, he does not provide a good return on the dollar.

when i compared jeff's ranking with league and pf averages the findings are quite similar for pts/rbs/assts. (among pf, green ranks 39th in rebounds.)

my conclusion? jeff is overpaid for his total production, but not terribly so. his salary doesn't kill the celtics so i can live with it.

edited for generally stupid typos.

[European NBA fan]

of len bias and reggie lewis-i can't imagine playing after heart surgery-this man should be applauded  for what an athlete and human being he is---the sub conscious niggling away and the battering he takes as bostons only real scoring threat-with a makeshift backcourt and revolving door of trades along with no center-thank you jeff green

+1

It's easy sometimes to forget the human perspective and just look at players like replaceable parts in a machine.

[aporel#18]

of len bias and reggie lewis-i can't imagine playing after heart surgery-this man should be applauded  for what an athlete and human being he is---the sub conscious niggling away and the battering he takes as bostons only real scoring threat-with a makeshift backcourt and revolving door of trades along with no center-thank you jeff green

Agreed.

What I've come to realize, after being a Lurker to this blog since 2006 and a full-time member in Oct 09 - is that this Blog needs a whipping boy.



Tony Allen held that title for the longest - and then was promptly missed and revered after he left for MEM.

Now? Jeff Green and Rajon Rondo hold that title, respectively.

TP. Can't forget "bad Tony" comments, then all of a sudden, he's an All-Defensive guard. Of course, he can't dribble the ball to save his life, but he got a lot of flack in this blog.

[mmmmm]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

let's look at some pretty crude stats, just for context. i don't mean this to be the final say in this discussion, but instead to give one way of viewing the question of green being overpaid.

there are about 450 slots for players in the nba (15 people x 30 teams) and only 150 for starters (5 people x 30 teams).

lets shift the chaff from the grain for a moment and only compare green as a starter by position in the nba. there are only 30 slots each for starting pf and sf, his two positions. so, imperfect as this is, let's see how green ranks among those positions in terms of salary.

green currently makes $9.2 million. that would rank him as the 12th highest paid sf in the league and the 13th highest paid pf.  so he is paid more than than many other players for those positions, but his pay is not among the leaders.

overall, he ranked 65th in salary in the nba. there are 150 starter slots in the nba, meaning comparatively in this context his salary, again, is more than many other starters, but not among the leaders.

basically, green is being paid slightly above league mean for his positions.

now let's see his stats and see whether they match his "slightly above mean salary."

as a small forward:
in pts/game green ranked 8th in the league.
in rbs/game green ranked 22nd in the league. (and 5th on the celtics!)
in assists green ranked 21st in the league.

for scoring, green is providing a return higher than his salary ranking - 8th in points, 12th in salary. but in rbs and assists, no matter how you stack it up, he does not provide a good return on the dollar.

when i compared jeff's ranking with league and pf averages the findings are quite similar for pts/rbs/assts. (among pf, green ranks 39th in rebounds.)

my conclusion? jeff is overpaid for his total production, but not terribly so. his salary doesn't kill the celtics so i can live with it.

edited for generally stupid typos.

That analysis sounds reasonable from a fan perspective, but it is probably not how the NBA sets the market for salaries.

You have to consider tenure in the NBA in the sense that first off, you have to remove all players at the position who are still on rookie contracts.   Right off the bat that raises the average cost at the position.

Chandler Parsons looked like a massive bargain last year, playing for his initial deal.  Now he is on a 15M contract -- is he overpaid for what will likely be similar production?   Or is he paid appropriate for his tenure and contract class?   In 2 years, the salary cap is expected to be much, much higher and both mid-level and max salaries (which are based on percentages of cap) will be much, much higher.   How will his deal look then?

Also, the rankings for production are not just going to be on simple per-game rates.  Total games and minutes played are important numbers to GMs and especially owners.   Green played the 15th most minutes and scored the 25th most total points in the NBA last year (6th most minutes and 7th most total points among SFs).  The NBA is an aggregate revenue entertainment business.   Those numbers mean that he was a significant contributor to the entertainment product that they sold.

Of the 6 SFs who scored more total points than Jeff Green last year, four were on max contracts, being paid at least twice as much (Durant, Carmelo, Lebron & Gay).   One of the other two was paid comparably, at 8.6M (T. Young).  The other player, the only one getting paid a lot less still on his rookie deal, was just signed to a max extension starting at 15.9M (Paul George).

And, of course, defensive value is important, too - though frustratingly hard to easily quantify.

All these things and others are important factors that go into how GMs arrive at a value for a player.

[hwangjini_1]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

let's look at some pretty crude stats, just for context. i don't mean this to be the final say in this discussion, but instead to give one way of viewing the question of green being overpaid.

there are about 450 slots for players in the nba (15 people x 30 teams) and only 150 for starters (5 people x 30 teams).

lets shift the chaff from the grain for a moment and only compare green as a starter by position in the nba. there are only 30 slots each for starting pf and sf, his two positions. so, imperfect as this is, let's see how green ranks among those positions in terms of salary.

green currently makes $9.2 million. that would rank him as the 12th highest paid sf in the league and the 13th highest paid pf.  so he is paid more than than many other players for those positions, but his pay is not among the leaders.

overall, he ranked 65th in salary in the nba. there are 150 starter slots in the nba, meaning comparatively in this context his salary, again, is more than many other starters, but not among the leaders.

basically, green is being paid slightly above league mean for his positions.

now let's see his stats and see whether they match his "slightly above mean salary."

as a small forward:
in pts/game green ranked 8th in the league.
in rbs/game green ranked 22nd in the league. (and 5th on the celtics!)
in assists green ranked 21st in the league.

for scoring, green is providing a return higher than his salary ranking - 8th in points, 12th in salary. but in rbs and assists, no matter how you stack it up, he does not provide a good return on the dollar.

when i compared jeff's ranking with league and pf averages the findings are quite similar for pts/rbs/assts. (among pf, green ranks 39th in rebounds.)

my conclusion? jeff is overpaid for his total production, but not terribly so. his salary doesn't kill the celtics so i can live with it.

edited for generally stupid typos.

That analysis sounds reasonable from a fan perspective, but it is probably not how the NBA sets the market for salaries.

You have to consider tenure in the NBA in the sense that first off, you have to remove all players at the position who are still on rookie contracts.   Right off the bat that raises the average cost at the position.

Chandler Parsons looked like a massive bargain last year, playing for his initial deal.  Now he is on a 15M contract -- is he overpaid for what will likely be similar production?   Or is he paid appropriate for his tenure and contract class?   In 2 years, the salary cap is expected to be much, much higher and both mid-level and max salaries (which are based on percentages of cap) will be much, much higher.   How will his deal look then?

Also, the rankings for production are not just going to be on simple per-game rates.  Total games and minutes played are important numbers to GMs and especially owners.   Green played the 15th most minutes and scored the 25th most total points in the NBA last year (6th most minutes and 7th most total points among SFs).  The NBA is an aggregate revenue entertainment business.   Those numbers mean that he was a significant contributor to the entertainment product that they sold.

Of the 6 SFs who scored more total points than Jeff Green last year, four were on max contracts, being paid at least twice as much (Durant, Carmelo, Lebron & Gay).   One of the other two was paid comparably, at 8.6M (T. Young).  The other player, the only one getting paid a lot less still on his rookie deal, was just signed to a max extension starting at 15.9M (Paul George).

And, of course, defensive value is important, too - though frustratingly hard to easily quantify.

All these things and others are important factors that go into how GMs arrive at a value for a player.

Yep I totally agree. But [dang]ed if I would to the to do all that. So I settled for crude stats. 

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

let's look at some pretty crude stats, just for context. i don't mean this to be the final say in this discussion, but instead to give one way of viewing the question of green being overpaid.

there are about 450 slots for players in the nba (15 people x 30 teams) and only 150 for starters (5 people x 30 teams).

lets shift the chaff from the grain for a moment and only compare green as a starter by position in the nba. there are only 30 slots each for starting pf and sf, his two positions. so, imperfect as this is, let's see how green ranks among those positions in terms of salary.

green currently makes $9.2 million. that would rank him as the 12th highest paid sf in the league and the 13th highest paid pf.  so he is paid more than than many other players for those positions, but his pay is not among the leaders.

overall, he ranked 65th in salary in the nba. there are 150 starter slots in the nba, meaning comparatively in this context his salary, again, is more than many other starters, but not among the leaders.

basically, green is being paid slightly above league mean for his positions.

now let's see his stats and see whether they match his "slightly above mean salary."

as a small forward:
in pts/game green ranked 8th in the league.
in rbs/game green ranked 22nd in the league. (and 5th on the celtics!)
in assists green ranked 21st in the league.

for scoring, green is providing a return higher than his salary ranking - 8th in points, 12th in salary. but in rbs and assists, no matter how you stack it up, he does not provide a good return on the dollar.

when i compared jeff's ranking with league and pf averages the findings are quite similar for pts/rbs/assts. (among pf, green ranks 39th in rebounds.)

my conclusion? jeff is overpaid for his total production, but not terribly so. his salary doesn't kill the celtics so i can live with it.

edited for generally stupid typos.

That analysis sounds reasonable from a fan perspective, but it is probably not how the NBA sets the market for salaries.

You have to consider tenure in the NBA in the sense that first off, you have to remove all players at the position who are still on rookie contracts.   Right off the bat that raises the average cost at the position.

Chandler Parsons looked like a massive bargain last year, playing for his initial deal.  Now he is on a 15M contract -- is he overpaid for what will likely be similar production?   Or is he paid appropriate for his tenure and contract class?   In 2 years, the salary cap is expected to be much, much higher and both mid-level and max salaries (which are based on percentages of cap) will be much, much higher.   How will his deal look then?

Also, the rankings for production are not just going to be on simple per-game rates.  Total games and minutes played are important numbers to GMs and especially owners.   Green played the 15th most minutes and scored the 25th most total points in the NBA last year (6th most minutes and 7th most total points among SFs).  The NBA is an aggregate revenue entertainment business.   Those numbers mean that he was a significant contributor to the entertainment product that they sold.

Of the 6 SFs who scored more total points than Jeff Green last year, four were on max contracts, being paid at least twice as much (Durant, Carmelo, Lebron & Gay).   One of the other two was paid comparably, at 8.6M (T. Young).  The other player, the only one getting paid a lot less still on his rookie deal, was just signed to a max extension starting at 15.9M (Paul George).

And, of course, defensive value is important, too - though frustratingly hard to easily quantify.

All these things and others are important factors that go into how GMs arrive at a value for a player.

This isn't your first day here, no need to fall into that trap. You should know by now that EVERY player DA signs is overpaid! Bass, Green, and AB are just off the top of my head but I'm not putting much thought into it. I wish I could think of one signing they didn't say he overpaid. 

[Future Celtics Owner]

When I posted I specifically stated that Jeff Green's contract coming off heart surgery, failure at OKC, and failure on that Celtics team...was a bad contract value wise at that time.

I am a big Jeff Green fan and all my statements on here proves that, so I am not worried about that. But as a fan I want the best team and Jeff Green's value was not 9mil a year when we signed him......even thought it is now. We didn't even have an injury clause in the contract!

Maybe some ppl here should read into the situation more about this, and how Faulk (Green's agent) basically had Danny by the you know what.
http://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/09/27/jeff-green-contract

[hwangjini_1]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

let's look at some pretty crude stats, just for context. i don't mean this to be the final say in this discussion, but instead to give one way of viewing the question of green being overpaid.

there are about 450 slots for players in the nba (15 people x 30 teams) and only 150 for starters (5 people x 30 teams).

lets shift the chaff from the grain for a moment and only compare green as a starter by position in the nba. there are only 30 slots each for starting pf and sf, his two positions. so, imperfect as this is, let's see how green ranks among those positions in terms of salary.

green currently makes $9.2 million. that would rank him as the 12th highest paid sf in the league and the 13th highest paid pf.  so he is paid more than than many other players for those positions, but his pay is not among the leaders.

overall, he ranked 65th in salary in the nba. there are 150 starter slots in the nba, meaning comparatively in this context his salary, again, is more than many other starters, but not among the leaders.

basically, green is being paid slightly above league mean for his positions.

now let's see his stats and see whether they match his "slightly above mean salary."

as a small forward:
in pts/game green ranked 8th in the league.
in rbs/game green ranked 22nd in the league. (and 5th on the celtics!)
in assists green ranked 21st in the league.

for scoring, green is providing a return higher than his salary ranking - 8th in points, 12th in salary. but in rbs and assists, no matter how you stack it up, he does not provide a good return on the dollar.

when i compared jeff's ranking with league and pf averages the findings are quite similar for pts/rbs/assts. (among pf, green ranks 39th in rebounds.)

my conclusion? jeff is overpaid for his total production, but not terribly so. his salary doesn't kill the celtics so i can live with it.

edited for generally stupid typos.

That analysis sounds reasonable from a fan perspective, but it is probably not how the NBA sets the market for salaries.

You have to consider tenure in the NBA in the sense that first off, you have to remove all players at the position who are still on rookie contracts.   Right off the bat that raises the average cost at the position.

Chandler Parsons looked like a massive bargain last year, playing for his initial deal.  Now he is on a 15M contract -- is he overpaid for what will likely be similar production?   Or is he paid appropriate for his tenure and contract class?   In 2 years, the salary cap is expected to be much, much higher and both mid-level and max salaries (which are based on percentages of cap) will be much, much higher.   How will his deal look then?

Also, the rankings for production are not just going to be on simple per-game rates.  Total games and minutes played are important numbers to GMs and especially owners.   Green played the 15th most minutes and scored the 25th most total points in the NBA last year (6th most minutes and 7th most total points among SFs).  The NBA is an aggregate revenue entertainment business.   Those numbers mean that he was a significant contributor to the entertainment product that they sold.

Of the 6 SFs who scored more total points than Jeff Green last year, four were on max contracts, being paid at least twice as much (Durant, Carmelo, Lebron & Gay).   One of the other two was paid comparably, at 8.6M (T. Young).  The other player, the only one getting paid a lot less still on his rookie deal, was just signed to a max extension starting at 15.9M (Paul George).

And, of course, defensive value is important, too - though frustratingly hard to easily quantify.

All these things and others are important factors that go into how GMs arrive at a value for a player.

This isn't your first day here, no need to fall into that trap. You should know by now that EVERY player DA signs is overpaid! Bass, Green, and AB are just off the top of my head but I'm not putting much thought into it. I wish I could think of one signing they didn't say he overpaid. 

pressey.

[hwangjini_1]

he should be applauded....but not paid 36 million right after surgery when no other teams were offering him anything close to that.....kinda reminds me of another player Ainge just overpaid for

And you know that ... how?

Seems in hindsight Green's not even close to overpaid relative to his peers.

let's look at some pretty crude stats, just for context. i don't mean this to be the final say in this discussion, but instead to give one way of viewing the question of green being overpaid.

there are about 450 slots for players in the nba (15 people x 30 teams) and only 150 for starters (5 people x 30 teams).

lets shift the chaff from the grain for a moment and only compare green as a starter by position in the nba. there are only 30 slots each for starting pf and sf, his two positions. so, imperfect as this is, let's see how green ranks among those positions in terms of salary.

green currently makes $9.2 million. that would rank him as the 12th highest paid sf in the league and the 13th highest paid pf.  so he is paid more than than many other players for those positions, but his pay is not among the leaders.

overall, he ranked 65th in salary in the nba. there are 150 starter slots in the nba, meaning comparatively in this context his salary, again, is more than many other starters, but not among the leaders.

basically, green is being paid slightly above league mean for his positions.

now let's see his stats and see whether they match his "slightly above mean salary."

as a small forward:
in pts/game green ranked 8th in the league.
in rbs/game green ranked 22nd in the league. (and 5th on the celtics!)
in assists green ranked 21st in the league.

for scoring, green is providing a return higher than his salary ranking - 8th in points, 12th in salary. but in rbs and assists, no matter how you stack it up, he does not provide a good return on the dollar.

when i compared jeff's ranking with league and pf averages the findings are quite similar for pts/rbs/assts. (among pf, green ranks 39th in rebounds.)

my conclusion? jeff is overpaid for his total production, but not terribly so. his salary doesn't kill the celtics so i can live with it.

edited for generally stupid typos.

That analysis sounds reasonable from a fan perspective, but it is probably not how the NBA sets the market for salaries.

You have to consider tenure in the NBA in the sense that first off, you have to remove all players at the position who are still on rookie contracts.   Right off the bat that raises the average cost at the position.

Chandler Parsons looked like a massive bargain last year, playing for his initial deal.  Now he is on a 15M contract -- is he overpaid for what will likely be similar production?   Or is he paid appropriate for his tenure and contract class?   In 2 years, the salary cap is expected to be much, much higher and both mid-level and max salaries (which are based on percentages of cap) will be much, much higher.   How will his deal look then?

Also, the rankings for production are not just going to be on simple per-game rates.  Total games and minutes played are important numbers to GMs and especially owners.   Green played the 15th most minutes and scored the 25th most total points in the NBA last year (6th most minutes and 7th most total points among SFs).  The NBA is an aggregate revenue entertainment business.   Those numbers mean that he was a significant contributor to the entertainment product that they sold.

Of the 6 SFs who scored more total points than Jeff Green last year, four were on max contracts, being paid at least twice as much (Durant, Carmelo, Lebron & Gay).   One of the other two was paid comparably, at 8.6M (T. Young).  The other player, the only one getting paid a lot less still on his rookie deal, was just signed to a max extension starting at 15.9M (Paul George).

And, of course, defensive value is important, too - though frustratingly hard to easily quantify.

All these things and others are important factors that go into how GMs arrive at a value for a player.

agree again. such as rebounding. lets factor that into this equation and see where green comes up. his scoring is a strength, as i pointed out. but when we expand our analysis beyond scoring green's performance raises interesting questions.