Trade Rondo for Hibbert/picks, draft Stanley Johnson

[TheFlex]

Pretty simple idea because I'm bored and feel like finding ways in which the Cs can be awesome again.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nfugdct

BOS gives to IND: Rajon Rondo, Keith Bogans, Chris Johnson
BOS receives from IND: Roy Hibbert, George Hill, 2015 1st rounder (unprotected), 2016 1st rounder (unprotected)

We give them the best value they'll find for Hibbert (who -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- they seem to want to ship out) and take on Hill's contract. For this, we are also rewarded two unprotected first rounders (this year's likely being a lottery pick).

Draft Stanley Johnson with our pick (we'll be conservative and say that we need to use both our pick and the 2015 IND pick to obtain a pick high enough to select Johnson). Draft another small forward with the LAC pick (Sam Dekker?).

2015-16 Cs heading into free agency next year:

Smart/G. Hill/Pressey
Bradley/J. Young/[Turner]
S. Johnson/Turner/S. Dekker/Wallace
Sullinger/Olynyk
Hibbert/Zeller/Fav

I'm assuming Turner will still be here but there's a massive chance that I'm wrong.

+ some cap space
+ a lot of future draft picks

To dream, let's assume the Cs get a top 5 pick and can land Johnson with their own pick. Then all of a sudden the Cs have another late lottery pick to work with. Could Olynyk and Indy's lotto pick land us Nerlens Noel?

Smart/G. Hill/Pressey
Bradley/J. Young/[Turner]
S. Johnson/Turner/S. Dekker/Wallace
Sully
Noel/Hibbert/Zeller/Fav

+ some cap space
+ a lot of future draft picks

Thoughts?

[gift]

Does Indiana own someone else's first rounder one of the next two years? If not, they can't trade picks back to back. I do like Stanley Johnson though. Outside of the big men, he's the guy I have my eye on in the next draft.

[slamtheking]

I'm not a fan of Hibbert after his disappearing act last year.  even with that in mind, I don't see Indy trading one of the better big men in the league (when he's playing focussed) for a PG and cap relief, particularly when Rondo will be asking for a sizable pay raise.  I don't see Indy throwing in 2 1sts as well (they can't be consecutive as mentioned above)

playing along, let's assume Indy likes this deal, I'm not sold on Hibbert being the new 'star' or focus of the team.  he's not the go-to guy this team needs.  he does fit the gaping hole at center for us and in theory Smart could be a very good PG in 2-3 years.  Will Hibbert feel like playing on a losing team while the youth movement tries to improve?  I think he'd have far less interest in doing so than Rondo since he doesn't have Rondo's ties to the team or community.

I'm not seeing the surefire benefit to trading Rondo for Hibbert.  if we're going for Hibbert, we should be pairing him with Rondo, not replacing him.

[TheFlex]

Does Indiana own someone else's first rounder one of the next two years? If not, they can't trade picks back to back. I do like Stanley Johnson though. Outside of the big men, he's the guy I have my eye on in the next draft.

You're right, I don't know why I forgot about this. Would you still do the deal if it was Rondo, Bogans, Johnson, 2015 LAC 1st for Hibbert, 2015 IND 1st, 2016 IND 1st and a couple of seconds?

I'm not a fan of Hibbert after his disappearing act last year.  even with that in mind, I don't see Indy trading one of the better big men in the league (when he's playing focussed) for a PG and cap relief, particularly when Rondo will be asking for a sizable pay raise.  I don't see Indy throwing in 2 1sts as well (they can't be consecutive as mentioned above)

playing along, let's assume Indy likes this deal, I'm not sold on Hibbert being the new 'star' or focus of the team.  he's not the go-to guy this team needs.  he does fit the gaping hole at center for us and in theory Smart could be a very good PG in 2-3 years.  Will Hibbert feel like playing on a losing team while the youth movement tries to improve?  I think he'd have far less interest in doing so than Rondo since he doesn't have Rondo's ties to the team or community.

I'm not seeing the surefire benefit to trading Rondo for Hibbert.  if we're going for Hibbert, we should be pairing him with Rondo, not replacing him.

Rondo is not Kevin Love even when he's at his best. As Danny said, there's a lot of good PGs in the league. I would say a potential DPOY candidate and two 1sts (one of which should be in the lottery) is a good return for Rondo. It's not necessarily about getting back a franchise player, as it almost never is when you're the team trading away the star.

[Celtics4ever]

Johnson could be the scorer we desperately need.   We have to the best on the board where we pick.  If it is a big or a scorer it would be best as we need those.   However, I doubt Stevens  plans on a scorer as Motion Offense usually go to the open guy in concept.  But in the NBA you need one who is a great one on one scorer.

[Csfan1984]

4 our of 10.

10 being best. 1 worst.

[gift]

Johnson could be the scorer we desperately need.   We have to the best on the board where we pick.  If it is a big or a scorer it would be best as we need those.   However, I doubt Stevens  plans on a scorer as Motion Offense usually go to the open guy in concept.  But in the NBA you need one who is a great one on one scorer.

I agree. But I like Johnson as a facilitator also, not just a scorer.

[manl_lui]

I like the trade, but Rondo will not get 2 picks AND Hibbert. Maybe for other up and coming player/rookie + 2 1st rounders, but for Hibbert, I will be surprised if we even get a 1st rounder as well. Since centers are harder to get in this league, I think WE will be the one surrendering a first for Hibbert

[Donoghus]

Indiana is giving up waaaay too much here.

[gift]

Does Indiana own someone else's first rounder one of the next two years? If not, they can't trade picks back to back. I do like Stanley Johnson though. Outside of the big men, he's the guy I have my eye on in the next draft.

You're right, I don't know why I forgot about this. Would you still do the deal if it was Rondo, Bogans, Johnson, 2015 LAC 1st for Hibbert, 2015 IND 1st, 2016 IND 1st and a couple of seconds?

I wouldn't want to give up any picks. But I do think it's worth exploring big men options like Hibbert and Monroe (as flawed as both options are). I don't think I'd do that deal as is.

[the_gunner]

I like the idea, but I think we are overvaluing Rondo.

I think we should we should include Bass in the deal, as Pacers might be a bit short on big men.

That is why my deal would be: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qhmhj23

If we can make that deal I think the next step would be to trade Wallace and Bogans for someone with an expiring contract(wishfull thinking!) and we are back in business!

An example of that kind of a trade http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ojlwknv giving up the Philly-pick and a 2nd rounder or so.

[crimson_stallion]

Does Indiana own someone else's first rounder one of the next two years? If not, they can't trade picks back to back. I do like Stanley Johnson though. Outside of the big men, he's the guy I have my eye on in the next draft.

You're right, I don't know why I forgot about this. Would you still do the deal if it was Rondo, Bogans, Johnson, 2015 LAC 1st for Hibbert, 2015 IND 1st, 2016 IND 1st and a couple of seconds?

I'm not a fan of Hibbert after his disappearing act last year.  even with that in mind, I don't see Indy trading one of the better big men in the league (when he's playing focussed) for a PG and cap relief, particularly when Rondo will be asking for a sizable pay raise.  I don't see Indy throwing in 2 1sts as well (they can't be consecutive as mentioned above)

playing along, let's assume Indy likes this deal, I'm not sold on Hibbert being the new 'star' or focus of the team.  he's not the go-to guy this team needs.  he does fit the gaping hole at center for us and in theory Smart could be a very good PG in 2-3 years.  Will Hibbert feel like playing on a losing team while the youth movement tries to improve?  I think he'd have far less interest in doing so than Rondo since he doesn't have Rondo's ties to the team or community.

I'm not seeing the surefire benefit to trading Rondo for Hibbert.  if we're going for Hibbert, we should be pairing him with Rondo, not replacing him.

Rondo is not Kevin Love even when he's at his best. As Danny said, there's a lot of good PGs in the league. I would say a potential DPOY candidate and two 1sts (one of which should be in the lottery) is a good return for Rondo. It's not necessarily about getting back a franchise player, as it almost never is when you're the team trading away the star.

When Rondo has been in his prime, I think he's significantly better than Kevin Love. 

Love might impress more in the scoring column, but you need to look at scoring in a different way - it's not just how many points he scores, it's how many points he generates for his team.

Rondo typically averages around 13 points and 10 assists per game, meaning he's directly responsible for at least about 33 points per game.  Love averaged around 25 and 3 last year (his best season ever), meaning that at best he's responsible for about 31 points per game.   

Rondo can impact a game the way few players in this league can and a way Love could only dream of.  When Rondo is at his best he's an elite defensive player, elite floor general, elite rebounder (for his position) and an emotional leader of his team.  Rondo's ability to control the entire tempo of a game gives him a rather unique ability to take over a game without scoring a point

The problem is that it's been a long time since i've seen Rondo perform 'at his best' consistently over the course of a season.    But in terms of still / talent / ability I would say Rondo is at the very least as good as Love, probably significantly better.

[crimson_stallion]

I like the trade, but Rondo will not get 2 picks AND Hibbert. Maybe for other up and coming player/rookie + 2 1st rounders, but for Hibbert, I will be surprised if we even get a 1st rounder as well. Since centers are harder to get in this league, I think WE will be the one surrendering a first for Hibbert

Agreed. 

I think Rondo for Hibbert straight up (with garbage thrown in for padding if need be) is a more likely scenario.  Hibbert is not as good a player as Rondo at his best, but that's offset by the fact that we desperately need a starting calibre center, and we also desperately need a rim protector.   Adding Hibbert to this team would (IMO) increase our win record dramatically I think.

[TheFlex]

Indiana is giving up waaaay too much here.

I'm using your quote as the general statement for the opposition to this trade.

Indiana is not giving up too much here. Indiana and Roy Hibbert is not exactly an inseparable marriage. From SB Nation's Indy Cornrows (http://www.indycornrows.com/2014/6/19/5823912/indiana-pacers-2013-14-player-review-roy-hibbert):

After a disappointing end to the season, an early report from ESPN's Marc Stein indicated that Hibbert has not officially requested a trade, but "wouldn't exactly oppose" one either. Due to his declining numbers, lack of an expiring contract, and upcoming player option after next season, the Pacers would likely only get cents on the dollar from any team willing to make a swap.

The real meat of the deal is Rondo + nonguaranteeds for Hibbert, dead weight contract (Hill), a 2015 late lottery 1st and a 2016 late 1st (see my revised trade of adding the 2015 LAC 1st in exchange for a couple of second rounders to make this consecutive pick relay work). If anyone is ridiculously overvalued on this forum, it's Hibbert, not Rondo.

Remember, we're not just giving them Rondo. We're greatly easing their cap situation by taking Hill (and Hibbert, who is incredibly overpaid) and giving them Bogans/Johnson so that they can go after a third piece to add to a Rondo + George duo in 2015. The real price is their pick this year. We have to add LAC's 2015 1st so that they can give us their 2015 pick, and so then they also give us their 2016 1st and seconds (again, really insignificant when you realize they'd have a real chance at assembling a devastating Big Three).

The Pacers tried to trade Hibbert for Dragic and failed. In my opinion, Rondo right now is still valued higher than Dragic. That's not taking into account our addition of cap relief and the 2015 LAC 1st.

If I'm correct, the Pacers would have about $40m committed in cap next summer after renouncing all cap holds if they made this trade. Let's say they re-sign Rondo for $17m. They'd still have plenty of room to add a legitimate third wheel as well as construct a supporting cast.

I have to say I think this is a really fair trade. From Boston's perspective, you're getting two unprotected 1sts (the real prize being the late lottery 1st) and a guy who, if he rebounds, is a DPOY candidate. If he doesn't, he'll be an expiring next year. From Indiana's perspective, you're breaking up a spoiled partnership between their franchise and Hibbert, giving them a potential star, and freeing up cap space to build around Paul George.

[slamtheking]

Does Indiana own someone else's first rounder one of the next two years? If not, they can't trade picks back to back. I do like Stanley Johnson though. Outside of the big men, he's the guy I have my eye on in the next draft.

You're right, I don't know why I forgot about this. Would you still do the deal if it was Rondo, Bogans, Johnson, 2015 LAC 1st for Hibbert, 2015 IND 1st, 2016 IND 1st and a couple of seconds?

I'm not a fan of Hibbert after his disappearing act last year.  even with that in mind, I don't see Indy trading one of the better big men in the league (when he's playing focussed) for a PG and cap relief, particularly when Rondo will be asking for a sizable pay raise.  I don't see Indy throwing in 2 1sts as well (they can't be consecutive as mentioned above)

playing along, let's assume Indy likes this deal, I'm not sold on Hibbert being the new 'star' or focus of the team.  he's not the go-to guy this team needs.  he does fit the gaping hole at center for us and in theory Smart could be a very good PG in 2-3 years.  Will Hibbert feel like playing on a losing team while the youth movement tries to improve?  I think he'd have far less interest in doing so than Rondo since he doesn't have Rondo's ties to the team or community.

I'm not seeing the surefire benefit to trading Rondo for Hibbert.  if we're going for Hibbert, we should be pairing him with Rondo, not replacing him.

Rondo is not Kevin Love even when he's at his best. As Danny said, there's a lot of good PGs in the league. I would say a potential DPOY candidate and two 1sts (one of which should be in the lottery) is a good return for Rondo. It's not necessarily about getting back a franchise player, as it almost never is when you're the team trading away the star.

When Rondo has been in his prime, I think he's significantly better than Kevin Love. 

Love might impress more in the scoring column, but you need to look at scoring in a different way - it's not just how many points he scores, it's how many points he generates for his team.

Rondo typically averages around 13 points and 10 assists per game, meaning he's directly responsible for at least about 33 points per game.  Love averaged around 25 and 3 last year (his best season ever), meaning that at best he's responsible for about 31 points per game.   

Rondo can impact a game the way few players in this league can and a way Love could only dream of.  When Rondo is at his best he's an elite defensive player, elite floor general, elite rebounder (for his position) and an emotional leader of his team.  Rondo's ability to control the entire tempo of a game gives him a rather unique ability to take over a game without scoring a point

The problem is that it's been a long time since i've seen Rondo perform 'at his best' consistently over the course of a season.    But in terms of still / talent / ability I would say Rondo is at the very least as good as Love, probably significantly better.

For Flex:
Not sure why Love was thrown in for a comparison for the argument to my original post but whatever.

As I mentioned, I don't think Indy would give up Hibbert and 2 1sts for Rondo.  If they did, as much as I like Rondo, I don't think I could come up with an reasonable argument not to pull that the trigger on that deal.  as others have mentioned, a deal with these 2 as the principle pieces would likely include filler players from each side to balance it out but unlikely any 1st rounders of any value changing hands unless another significant player was included in the deal.

for CS:
I can get behind the belief that prime and focussed Rondo will impact a game like few other players in the league.  Love is a terrific player and while he can score and rebound, he doesn't really elevate the level of play of his teammates--not that I've seen anyway.  Rondo does.  The thing is, as you mentioned, it's been a while since we've seen Rondo play at that level and even then it's only in the playoffs or national TV against another top PG.