No offense?

[Celtics4ever]

Our talent level right now is low.   That always causes offense problems.  Defense is somewhat effort based even non talented guys can play D on some level.   Offense, you either have it or you don't and right now we don't.

[TeamGreen.dm]

Our problem isn't scoring, it's scoring the the last 5 minutes of a game----crunch time!  When the other team, after coasting all game, finally gets in all out mad dog defensive mode and tries to completely shut you down!  It's when you need a CLOSER, a guy that can CONSISTENTLY score in this time.  We don't have that player now!
We even struggled with PP, KG and RA in crunch time, and only succeeded because of their superior passing skills, ala, the SAS!  And, PP was a CLOSER, but as he got older became less adept at it, and more prone to TO's!
Until we get a NEW CLOSER, we'll continue to struggle mightily, and not be in contention for anything but a high lottery pick!

That's exactly it. I think our defense will keep us in most games but in the 4th you need a guy who can give you 10-15 points and end the game. A guy who will command attention throughout the game. A player to take offensive pressure off of our young players. I like the fact we have Rondo to control our offense and maximize our youthful lineup but I'd LOVE a player like well Love haha. Unless RRondo comes out averaging 15-10 this year were in the basement of the East all over again.

[BballTim]

Hard to disagree, ejplaya. Rondo could make this offense average, or he could do what's best for Rondo and maximize his assists.

   I never knew until I came here how few people realized that players score more efficiently off of passes than they do otherwise. People somehow think it hurts the offense when he gets assists. That's actually not the case.

Typical comment from you BBALL TIM. Trying to insinuate people don't know what they are talking about to make your point. Clearly people must be "ignorant" and have no clue about basketball to think differently than you do. How about just trying to make a rebuttal instead of putting people's knowledge level down...

What you aren't discussing however is that Rondo's ball pounding and delay into deep into the shot clock eliminates many opportunities for that 2nd and third pass which often is the best shot of them all. That is what the 80's Celtics were so effective with and that is what this recent team of KG, PP and Ray were not as good at. Rondo's ball dominance costs us valuable shot clock time that often results in a poor last second shot going up and a less productive overall offense.

  Why don't you show some evidence of what you're claiming? Then we could actually discuss it. Do we take more shots late in the shot clock than most teams? Did our percentage of shots late in the shot clock in the big three era soar as Rondo's ball dominance increased? Do we play at a slower pace when Rondo's in the game? Also, the number of shots we take at the end of the shot clock didn't really go down after Rondo's injury in 2013, or go up after Rondo came back into the lineup in 2014. How do you account for that?

  I'm guessing you won't be able to find any evidence of something you think happens all the time, but if you do we can certainly discuss it.

I suppose Rondo had to have the ball in his hands so people would, if not actually guard him outside the paint, at least pay attention to the fact that he was on the court.

  Your scouting report is 5-6 years old. Watch this youtube video and then tell me what you're seeing can best be described as "not actually guarding Rondo, but at least paying attention to the fact that he's on the court".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0xhw-5Txto

Rondo is just beginning to show a jumper out to 16ft.  Will he still be the guy with the ball in a motion O, or will he pass and cut like everyone else?

  Rondo was among the league leaders in fg% from 16-23 feet the season before last. "Rondo is just beginning to show a jumper out to 16ft" isn't close to current either.

For the last couple of years, he stood and watched (or directed, if you prefer) the offense until one pass was made for a shot.  Usually good passes, occasionally amazing, and nice finishes from teammates.

   That happens at times, an it's good offense when it does. But when you start thinking about the other ways he gets assists and the number of assists he gets, you'll come to the conclusion that he's getting at most 1-2 of those type of assists a quarter, so including misses you're describing what we do on about 3 of our 24 possessions per quarter.

But it doesn't (or shouldn't) take advanced metrics to have noticed that, when Rondo was playing regularly - which is when Doc was coaching - he pounded the leather like he had some sort of cow fettish.  No getting around that.  He can do more, I think, but that's what Doc had him doing.

  No, it doesn't take advanced metrics to have noticed Rondo pounded the leather like he had some sort of cow fetish. Generally all it takes is reading that he does it on the internet and watching games expecting to see it. Does Rondo have the ball in his hands a lot? Sure, many point guards do. Do players like Paul, Curry, Lillard. Westbrook, Wall and Conley share in Rondo's fetish? Do most point guards?

[Mr October]

TP Tim. Watching that highlight reel of Rondo from last season was awesome. He is a pleasure to watch, and i would hate to see him go.

I hope he is on board with the rebuild, and stays a Celtic for a long time.

[Mr October]

The offense needs a number of things.

1. A go to scorer in the last 4 minutes of close games. Sully could come the closest if he finds his inner David West. En elite perimeter or dominant center would be an ideal find.

2. Better 3 point shooters. It will be interesting if the experiment of Green, Sully and Olynyk shooting high volume 3s will pay off as soon as this coming season. Kelly Olynyk was looking really smooth out there towards the end of the season. Between Olynyk, Bradley, Green, Thornton, and Young, the Celtics should at least look OK out there. It would nice to add 1 killer shooter to this roster though.

3. Chemistry. Rondo barley played last year. I want to see what this roster does with a camp and good health together. Brad Stevens got a pass last year. This year we need to see improvements (and not necessarily in the win column).

[Celtics4ever]

Trouble with highlights is they do not show the lowlights and the rest of the story.


I love RR too.   But he needs shooters for those passes to make impact.

[BballTim]

Trouble with highlights is they do not show the lowlights and the rest of the story.

  Depends on what you use them for. I'm not using it as evidence that Rondo's a great scorer or passer and claiming that every shot/pass he makes has the same results. I'm not using it to demonstrate how well he plays. I was using it to demonstrate how absurd your people "at least have to pay attention to the fact that he's on the court" comment was.

I love RR too.   But he needs shooters for those passes to make impact.

  And I love the team, and it will need shooters to make an impact as well. What's your point?

[Monkhouse]

Trouble with highlights is they do not show the lowlights and the rest of the story.

  Depends on what you use them for. I'm not using it as evidence that Rondo's a great scorer or passer and claiming that every shot/pass he makes has the same results. I'm not using it to demonstrate how well he plays. I was using it to demonstrate how absurd your people "at least have to pay attention to the fact that he's on the court" comment was.

I love RR too.   But he needs shooters for those passes to make impact.

  And I love the team, and it will need shooters to make an impact as well. What's your point?

I don't get why the users here have so much criticisms for Rondo. I remembered when I used to check these forums out, but never registered, one user said Rondo was one of the most overrated players in the league. I think it might have been you, who completely shut the down with proof of his contract, (very underrated,) and how his passes led to assists most of the time. You also generated some table noting the finishing percentages inside in 2010-2011, and Rondo was top 3 next to Westbrook, and CP3.

[coco]

Smart olynyk and thornton is looking like a solid bench rotation..I like how deep this team is

Yeah, Smart and Olynyk pick and roll should be the staple of that second unit, with Thornton spotting up.

I think KO will probably be our best big before December.  Will probably be a starter at some point before All-Star weekend.  I don't think Sully can shake his weight issues.

[JBcat]

If Rondo, Bradley, Green, Sully, and maybe even KO average at least 30 MPG you could have up to 5 guys averaging somewhere around 15 PPG.  That's a start and then Smart, Thornton, Bass, and Zeller will have their moments of high scoring games.  Even Fav can score a little if he is on the team.

So I our offense overall will at least be a little better than last year with another year of development of the kids from last year, a full year of Rondo, Smart, and having an actual possible starting center.

I actually think we'll have really good bench scoring with Smart, Thornton, Bass, and KO.  Wallace can even play the role of point forward.  It's not a killer offense but an improvement.

[Celtics4ever]

  And I love the team, and it will need shooters to make an impact as well. What's your point?

I was not coming at you or the vid, I just think highlights are just that.   This video is a mix of his worse plays. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ObyFekJmjs

It is grossly unfair because it shows him blowing shots, etc.     I agree, the least pay attention comment was absurd. 

I am RR supporter but I think with his poor shot that it is critical you surround him with shooters to hide his flaws and maximize his strengths.  LeBron likes playing with shooters too.  All passers do.  A good pass can make a better shot opportunity.   But good shooters make those passes count more.

[Mr October]

If Rondo, Bradley, Green, Sully, and maybe even KO average at least 30 MPG you could have up to 5 guys averaging somewhere around 15 PPG.  That's a start and then Smart, Thornton, Bass, and Zeller will have their moments of high scoring games.  Even Fav can score a little if he is on the team.

So I our offense overall will at least be a little better than last year with another year of development of the kids from last year, a full year of Rondo, Smart, and having an actual possible starting center.

I actually think we'll have really good bench scoring with Smart, Thornton, Bass, and KO.  Wallace can even play the role of point forward.  It's not a killer offense but an improvement.

In general they will find a way to score. But i worry about how they will execute and find points in the last 4 minutes of any close game. That's where they fell apart a ton last year. That probably wont change much this year.

[BballTim]

  And I love the team, and it will need shooters to make an impact as well. What's your point?

I was not coming at you or the vid, I just think highlights are just that.   This video is a mix of his worse plays. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ObyFekJmjs

It is grossly unfair because it shows him blowing shots, etc.     I agree, the least pay attention comment was absurd. 

I am RR supporter but I think with his poor shot that it is critical you surround him with shooters to hide his flaws and maximize his strengths.  LeBron likes playing with shooters too.  All passers do.  A good pass can make a better shot opportunity.   But good shooters make those passes count more.

  Depends on how you look at it I suppose. The Spurs shoot the ball better than the Celts whether the attempt is assisted or not but the increase in fg% from an assist is probably bigger for the Celts than the Spurs.

[LB3533]

This past season, the Celtics team took 6883 shots. Of those shots:

14% (963.62 FGA) of them occurred after 21 seconds passed on the 24 sec shot clock.

Of the 96.2 ppg, 9.4 ppg (9.77%) were produced "late in the shot clock" on eFG% 0.402, yuck!

How bout champs Spurs? Total FGA = 6844, Late shot clock: 12% or 821.28 fga on eFG% 0.461 producing 9.2ppg or 8.72% (105.4 ppg)

Heat? Total FGAs = 6272, late shot clock:  18% or 1128.96 fga !!! on  eFG% 0.477 producing 13.2 ppg !! Or 12.91% (102.2 ppg).

League AVG - 6806 total FGA / 13.433 % late in clock (914.25 fga) / on 0.429 eFGA

So Celtics did shoot more (83.9 FGA/G) than the league average of 83.0/g, and the C's did shoot more late in shot clock shots, 14% to 13.433%....but not by much.

On those late shot clock shots, what the C's did (0.402 eFG%) was shoot less than the league avg (0.429 eFG%)

These stats reflect that our team needs better quality shooters. We are 3rd to last in eFG%. Taking these shots with the clock winding down, isn't going to help our kinds of players. But we don't take these kinds of shots aggregiously more so than the average team, only slightly more.

Another key aspect to look at is maybe we shouldn't be taking 70% of our FGAs as jump shots. But remember, a basketball offense isn't strictly dependent on the 0-playbook. Opposing defenses play a factor too. If they know we are weak shooting team, they are going to give us the open jumper, on purpose.

Please don't ask me how long this research took LOL!

[gar]

None taken.

TP