Chad Ford Mock 7.0 today Gordon and Porzingis

[NorthernLightning]

Because he's a confident, extremely hard worker who expects perfection from himself. Considering that he has the perfect physique and athleticism for trying to become "Scottie Griffin", it's worth emphasizing what this guy is striving for.

He already has the same standing reach as Blake and Gordon might still be growing. He has similar or better jumping ability than Blake, but Gordon has significantly better lateral agility.

Griffin is much stronger, but Gordon will get up to 235-240 soon enough.

Gordon probably won't be as good as Griffin or Pippen, but he has a chance, as a combination of the two.

[Evantime34]

Gordon is an elite level athlete. But he has only decent rebounding skills and only decent handles with a poor outside shot. And by poor I mean atrocious.

If he could ever get to the point of being able to hit 3 pointers at a 35% clip for 2-3 3PTA per game, find 3-4 spots on the floor where he can hit a 2 pt shot at a 50% rate, and shoot FTs at a 75% rate, there is no doubt the kid could have enormous upside.

But if he can't he will be a role player, plain and simple. That's my opinion and I think that's pretty well informed having watched Gordon about a half dozen times last year and read a lot on him and seen all the you tube and draft express vids posted on this site.

My opinion is, it would be just a lot harder for Gordon to become the shooter he has to to be a great player than a player like Vonleh, who is bigger and when he fills out will play a position of need for the Celtics, center, will be to learn a system and become a better all around defender when he isn't already an atrocious defender or lacking in defensive skills like NL is suggesting.

For that reason I would take Vonleh over Gordon.

Also, at a position of need is Marcus Smart who I think will become a premiere guard defender, has above average PG skills, a streaky ability to score from outside and who has a lot of D Wade in him. I would take Smart over Gordon.

I also have been a large advocate of Tyler Ennis and think he will be one of the very best players to come out of this draft once 5-6 years have passed. The kid has Westbrook size, a Rondo play making, running a team mentality and plus shooting and passing skills as well as an ability to play clutch in the toughest situations.

I also like Garry Harris and feel he could be a lot like Bradley Beal and that he has that type of upside.

Those are guys I have talked about, though maybe Harris less than the others, and have suggested that the C's go after those players.

But given my long standing dislike for young players, something that is well known on this site, I would absolutely rather trade both first rounders this year for an established star as I believe winning basketball starts with established, experienced stars that know how to play winning basketball.

All if this wouldn't be known by NL as instead of friendly discourse and conversation he instantly goes into swarmy, passive aggressive insulting mode and would rather take the conversation into an immature "My opinion is better than yours" direction rather than ask polite questions regarding why people might disagree with him and respectfully discussing the difference of opinions.

I disagree with you on these points:
1. Gordon has elite rebounding skills for his position. He lead his team in defensive rebounding percentage despite spending the majority of his time (before their PF got hurt) defending the wing. Being able to guard on the perimeter, close out on shots without fouling and then get the rebounds is some kind of feat.
2. I disagree about the handles but there really isn't a metric to prove you wrong.
3. His shot isn't great but 35% is more decent than atrocious. I think he will never be an elite shooter who can hit shots with a hand in his face but he will be able to knock down open shots at the NBA level and with everything else he brings to the game hitting open shots will be enough
4. Why does Gordon need to be a good shooter to be more than a role player? I think he will bring elite defense, rebounding, and shot creation from the 3 spot. I really like the Pippen comparison (look up Pippen's college numbers and he shot less than 10% in his first two years from 3)
5. I'm worried about Vonleh's athleticism. He tested very well at the combine but he didn't really show it that much in games.
6. Not an Ennis fan, I think he's solid and a good player to fit around elite talent to facilitate but I don't see him having the quickness to get to the hole in the NBA or defend elite pgs.
7. I like Harris but I don't think he can shoot quite as well as Beal nor does he have the size and I am warry of bringing in another combo guard onto the team.
8. I much prefer Love to making our 6th pick, I much prefer Asik to making our 17th pick, but other than Love I can't think of a guy on the market that I would trade our 6th for.

Here is a good post on Gordon http://deanondraft.com/type/aside/

Rebounding tends to translate in the NBA for the NCAA so elite NBA rebounders tend to have been elite NCAA rebounders. Good NBA rebounders, good NCAA rebounders and so forth. I don't consider 8 RPG elite for a SF. If he is only getting 6-8 RPG in the NBA people are not going to consider him an elite rebounder. I think we just have different ideas of what elite is and what good is. He will be a decent to good overall rebounder who will rebound very well for his position. Maybe that represents what I meant a bit more in rebounding.

When I say decent handles I mean for a guy his size he will have good handles but as an overall player his handles will be decent. He doesn't have Lebron handles. That's elite. I don't think he even has Blake Griffin handles which are extremely good for a big man and overall as a player very good. I think with faster more athletic competition his handles won't show off as well as the open court transition game he showed his handles off in in college.

He only shot 45 3 pointers to obtain that 35% three point percentage. A much higher sample size was his 2 point jump shots which he took at a 27.5% rate and all shots not a layup which he shot at a 29% rate. He shot free throws at a 42% rate. So outside of layups or plays at the rim he truly was an atrocious shooter. Shots that are that messed up tend not to get fixed easily if at all.

I think if you aren't going to be a good shooter and be limited offensively only the greatest of the greats turn out to be a Pippen or a Rodman or a Ben Wallace and so forth and are considered a great player. If you aren't one of those greats you tend to be role players like Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen or Shane Battier. And there's nothing wrong with being that good. I just think that's more realistic.

I think Vonleh's athleticism didn't show enough in college as compared to a combine because he is still slow to really learn the game and I think he sometimes can almost be seen being hesitant to make plays because he's thinking through things. I think the athleticism is there but he's going to need longer to learn and adapt. Probably a longer developmental curve.

We can agree to disagree on Ennis. I think the kid has Mike Conley type game and will reach that type of a ceiling. To me, that's a dang good player. Like the way he runs an offense and he tested very well at the combines on some of the speed drills(Like top 3-5 in a couple and top 7 in a few). I think with intelligence and size and good athleticism, he will develop well. The skills will translate, IMHO.

I thought Harris was 6'5" with an average reach and wingspan for a kid that size. Nothing wrong with that size for a shooting guard. I don't think he has to be considered a combo guard. More like a SG with a good handle and decent passing ability.

Love is what I was talking about. If others are available I am sure Ainge would be using the pick in a trade for quality talent.

TP for answering in a civilized manner as apposed to the manner another responded simply because of my use of the word atrocious.

So I think if he produces 8 rebounds a game at the 3 then that is elite for his position. However, I would blame his Arizona numbers on their system and where he was playing. He lead the U-19 national team in rebounds last year and the u-18 team in rebounds the year before in international play. I think he can give 8-10 boards a game from the 3 position in the NBA, which I believe would be close to the best at his position.

Does he have LeBron or Blake handles now? No. However, I would say that his handle is much better than Blake's was at the same age and comparable to Lebron's at a similar age.

I understand what you are saying about other players who haven't had a good shot being roleplayers if they aren't elite defenders. But I think Gordon is much more special than those type of players which is evident when you look at how he was the best player on several national teams. Gordon has an excellent assist to turnover ratio, which to me indicates that he can help on offense even without a great shot. Also the guys you mentioned weren't the type of athletes who could create opportunities on the break. I think Gordon has the ability similar to Blake Griffin to outrun and out jump people on the break, creating scoring opportunities where their wouldn't be ones for less athletic players.

Agree to disagree about Ennis. Conley turned out to be a lot better than I thought he would be so if they have similar careers I could be similarly wrong about both.

Gary Harris was measured 6'2.5 without shoes at the combine. If he were 6'5 I think he would be a part of the second tier rather than the third.

[Evantime34]

Claiming that any college player can ever amount to more than jack squat seems to be taboo around here. Because it hasn't happened yet and "I watched very little college ball but..." is the motto.

Pippen is obviously a best case scenario, but Gordon has just as much versatility as Pippen did, since Gordon is taller and stronger and will just keep getting stronger for years.

Look at today's biggest stars, most of them seem to be close to Gordon's size: Lebron, KD, Carmelo, PGeorge, Blake, Love, Aldridge, Wiggins, JParker, etc.

There is a much longer list of NBA players who did not pan out as well as they were expected to than those who exceeded expectations. The idea that its at all likely that Gordon will have an on-the-court career similar to Scottie is laughable, and not because we're all allergic to having high hopes for NBA prospects.


Also laughable: Wiggins and Jabari Parker are already NBA Stars.

The draft is about projecting players. The attitude of laughing off every players ability to do things in the NBA until they actually do those things is counter to the idea of the draft.

I too prefer to trade for an established player like Love, but if we don't get him because another team did or because Minnesota wanted too much then it makes the most sense to use our 6th pick. If we are gong to use our 6th pick, then it makes sense for us as arm chair gms to projects what a player will be.

What is the point of laugh at comparisons of draft prospects? If you think it is ridiculous you are probably in the wrong thread.

  Projecting players doesn't mean figuring out what their absolute ceiling is. It's about figuring out what kind of pros they're likely to be. Claiming that Gordon't extremely unlikely to be a Pippen level of defender is a reasonable stance to take in a thread like this.

It's fine to claim, dismissing something as laughable is not.

The comparison in size, length and athleticism is what makes me like the comp, laughing it off because Gordon hasn't done it yet is not making a strong argument against.

  Is he the first player in the last 30 or so years to compare well to Pippen in terms of size, length and athleticism? Were other players that did all-time great defenders? If not, then explaining why he's more likely to succeed than other players with similar measurements would be a good argument.

Other players with similar measurements didn't lead their teams to a top 5 defense as freshman. Other players will similar measurements didn't consistently give top level production in international play.

[NorthernLightning]

 

Is he the first player in the last 30 or so years to compare well to Pippen in terms of size, length and athleticism? Were other players that did all-time great defenders? If not, then explaining why he's more likely to succeed than other players with similar measurements would be a good argument.

It seems to never quite register with you guys, but we're not just comparing size, length, and athleticism.

Sure, there have been a lot of great athletes to come and go, but Gordon isn't just a great athlete. Gordon has the same natural talent as a point forward, with his great iq, decision making, and passing vision. Also, if you watch actual games of Arizona, of which there are many available on youtube, you will notice that his focus and defensive decision making are top notch, which is even more impressive considering he's just an 18 year old freshman. He rarely misses a rotation, rarely fails to help out with maximum effort and reaction time, his footwork is amazing, and he seems to never lose focus.

[NorthernLightning]

These Laker fans are drooling over him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xGVsja6prQ

[BballTim]

Is he the first player in the last 30 or so years to compare well to Pippen in terms of size, length and athleticism? Were other players that did all-time great defenders? If not, then explaining why he's more likely to succeed than other players with similar measurements would be a good argument.

It seems to never quite register with you guys, but we're not just comparing size, length, and athleticism.

Sure, there have been a lot of great athletes to come and go, but Gordon isn't just a great athlete. Gordon has the same natural talent as a point forward, with his great iq, decision making, and passing vision. Also, if you watch actual games of Arizona, of which there are many available on youtube, you will notice that his focus and defensive decision making are top notch, which is even more impressive considering he's just an 18 year old freshman. He rarely misses a rotation, rarely fails to help out with maximum effort and reaction time, his footwork is amazing, and he seems to never lose focus.

  Again, if he's the player you claim he'll never be around when we pick anyways. I guess we should just wait and see what happens at this point and you can hit me with a "I told you so" when he's a perennial all-star. Just make sure if you bring up anything I said you use the exact quote down to the punctuation. I get whiny when people don't.

[D.o.s.]

TP Tim.

[Tr1boy]

Tim so who do you like for the celts to draft?? Or is it trade for love or a vet or nothing,?

[Donoghus]

Tim so who do you like for the celts to draft?? Or is it trade for love or a vet or nothing,?

Pretty sure Tim wants to trade Rondo for 25 cents on the dollar.

[Tr1boy]

Some ppl r confident gordon will turn around his shooting. He has shown improvements already. Just like how tim thinks rondo will come into next season in 100 percent  health condition

[BballTim]

Tim so who do you like for the celts to draft?? Or is it trade for love or a vet or nothing,?

Pretty sure Tim wants to trade Rondo for 25 cents on the dollar.

  Yes, now that it's looking more and more unlikely that we'll amnesty him.

[BballTim]

Tim so who do you like for the celts to draft?? Or is it trade for love or a vet or nothing,?

  I'd rather have Love, but other than that I'm fine with BPA. FWIW I'm not even saying we shouldn't draft Gordon, just that he's pretty unlikely to be the next Pippen.

[NorthernLightning]

Yeah it's no sure thing that he'll even be there. Utah could use a small forward, and they're likely to strike out on trading up for Parker.

Smart is arguably just as good or even better of a prospect as Gordon, and Vonleh would make some sense as well, so it's ultimately not the biggest deal for me if we miss out on Gordon.

But I do really like KO and Sully, and getting an Aaron Gordon or perhaps a Luol Deng is just about the only way a Sully/KO frontcourt could work.

For that frontcourt to work, you need a big and athletic and versatile and intelligent SF, who can also gobble up rebounds and score inside, as well as defend athletic PFs.

And if we end up taking Vonleh, he might be more redundant than we'd like, and might not ever develop into a much better center than KO or Sully.

Smart could be a great shot in the arm for this team, but you have to wonder about Rondo and how the two will gel on the court. I'm also a bit concerned about Smart's weight over the long term, since he's already pushing 230. His body is naturally going to be inclined to gain more weight over the next few years, and it's going to affect his agility and quickness as a PG. As a shooting guard that additional weight will be fine, but he'd ultimately be a 6'2" barefoot SG with a questionable outside shot. He'd still be a beast, but Rondo + Smart isn't an ideal backcourt.

[TheGreenMonster]

Kristaps Porzingis has withdrawn from this years draft, will stay in Europe for another 12 months and enter next year instead where he believes he can be a higher selection

[NorthernLightning]

That's a bummer https://sports.yahoo.com/news/kristaps-porzingis-pulls-out-of-nba-draft--will-stay-in-europe-for-another-season-011502539.html