Is Kevin Love Overrated.

[D.o.s.]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage.' A higher percentage of DeAndre's total rebounds are contested -- apologies for being unclear about that.

[D.o.s.]

whoops double.

[Fafnir]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage'

I doubt a difference of under 2% is significant, though I can't say until we have multiple data points.

Either way Love is better than both of them on the defensive glass, they match his overall numbers by getting on the offensive glass more. Love used to do that till his offensive game became more refined with him having the ball (and he's shooting so man 3s that limits his opportunities less he screw up floor balance).

[McHales Pits]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage.' A higher percentage of DeAndre's total rebounds are contested -- apologies for being unclear about that.

By 1.4%? What exactly are you trying to prove? That isn't exactly a telling disparity.

[Fafnir]

If anything that just indicates that Love isn't crashing the offensive glass nearly as much as he did in prior years. I'd bet that almost all offensive rebounds are contested.

Edit: For example look at Robin Lopez and his 51% contested rebound percentage. He gets almost as many offensive boards and defensive ones. 13.6 OREB% and a 15.3 DREB%

[D.o.s.]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage.' A higher percentage of DeAndre's total rebounds are contested -- apologies for being unclear about that.

By 1.4%? What exactly are you trying to prove? That isn't exactly a telling disparity.

I'm trying to prove exactly what I said in my earlier posts, that " there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense." Specifically that "Kevin Love is a great rebounder, but the numbers don't definitively prove he's better than, say, Drummond or Jordan."

And that your 'in essence' theory about his outlet passing and uncontested boards, is, 'in essence,' creation myth-esque nonsense.

[McHales Pits]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage.' A higher percentage of DeAndre's total rebounds are contested -- apologies for being unclear about that.

By 1.4%? What exactly are you trying to prove? That isn't exactly a telling disparity.

I'm trying to prove exactly what I said in my earlier posts, that " there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense." Specifically that "Kevin Love is a great rebounder, but the numbers don't definitively prove he's better than, say, Drummond or Jordan."

And that your 'in essence' theory about his outlet passing and uncontested boards, is, 'in essence,' creation myth-esque nonsense.

You are comparing to two 7' centers who led the league in rebounds per game...he is a 6'9" stretch power forward and basically kept pace with them. Their stats are basically the same. Except Love can dish outlet passes and knock down threes and free throws. Drummond and Jordan can't do that. They can rebound because they are huge men with great athleticism. Love rebounds in a different style and is one of the league's best. No stat you try to find will back up your theory that Love gets empty rebounds or is an overrated rebounder.

My 'essence' comment is merely a thought of how his play affects the game. Your thought about his overrated rebounding is patently false and the numbers prove it.

[BballTim]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

  I'm not sure how whether the boards are uncontested or not affect whether they're considered an indication of good defense. I'm also not sure that grabbing uncontested boards means you're a bad rebounder. You can argue that if you can grab a board in traffic then you're the superior rebounder but I thing that grabbing a lot of uncontested boards can indicate that you're better than normal at anticipating where the ball will go after it hits the rim. While they were also good at rebounding in traffic, players like Bird and Rodman were exceptional at this. Not saying it's true in Love's case, but something to consider.

[nickagneta]

KO took off an entire year and a half to transform his body between his sophomore and junior years. He stopped playing ball in March 2011 and didn't play competitively again until November 2012. He took all that time off to transform his body and the best he could do was what he currently is? That means he probably CAN'T transform his body much beyond what it already is. He is not going to be able to do in a few months what he couldn't do in 20 months at a younger age. Its just not going to happen.

Best he could on is put on 15-20 pounds of strength?

Man thats horrible

You were making it sound like his time between his junior and sophomore years was a normal time span when it wasn't. He took off all that time to transform his body and the best he could do was to be the weak physical player that he is. If you don't think that doesn't speak volumes about his ability to transform his body, there's not much more to talk about. Your opinion on this is set and quite honestly, extremely out of line with reality.

[D.o.s.]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage.' A higher percentage of DeAndre's total rebounds are contested -- apologies for being unclear about that.

By 1.4%? What exactly are you trying to prove? That isn't exactly a telling disparity.

I'm trying to prove exactly what I said in my earlier posts, that " there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense." Specifically that "Kevin Love is a great rebounder, but the numbers don't definitively prove he's better than, say, Drummond or Jordan."

And that your 'in essence' theory about his outlet passing and uncontested boards, is, 'in essence,' creation myth-esque nonsense.

You are comparing to two 7' centers who led the league in rebounds per game...he is a 6'9" stretch power forward and basically kept pace with them. Their stats are basically the same. Except Love can dish outlet passes and knock down threes and free throws. Drummond and Jordan can't do that. They can rebound because they are huge men with great athleticism. Love rebounds in a different style and is one of the league's best. No stat you try to find will back up your theory that Love gets empty rebounds or is an overrated rebounder.

My 'essence' comment is merely a thought of how his play affects the game. Your thought about his overrated rebounding is patently false and the numbers prove it.

Goalposts, shifted.

Whether or not I think Love's an overrated rebounder (and I do) has no bearing on how his rebounding could be construed as good defense.

[BballTim]

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

Would you be able to back this up? Uncontested boards? What an arbitrary term.

As you will see from my link (which came from NBA.com), this is not true. Jordan, Aldridge, Cousins, and Howard all grab more uncontested boards per game.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_UNCONTESTED&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Wrong stat. You want to look one column to the right, at 'Contested rebound percentage.' A higher percentage of DeAndre's total rebounds are contested -- apologies for being unclear about that.

By 1.4%? What exactly are you trying to prove? That isn't exactly a telling disparity.

I'm trying to prove exactly what I said in my earlier posts, that " there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense." Specifically that "Kevin Love is a great rebounder, but the numbers don't definitively prove he's better than, say, Drummond or Jordan."

And that your 'in essence' theory about his outlet passing and uncontested boards, is, 'in essence,' creation myth-esque nonsense.

You are comparing to two 7' centers who led the league in rebounds per game...he is a 6'9" stretch power forward and basically kept pace with them. Their stats are basically the same. Except Love can dish outlet passes and knock down threes and free throws. Drummond and Jordan can't do that. They can rebound because they are huge men with great athleticism. Love rebounds in a different style and is one of the league's best. No stat you try to find will back up your theory that Love gets empty rebounds or is an overrated rebounder.

My 'essence' comment is merely a thought of how his play affects the game. Your thought about his overrated rebounding is patently false and the numbers prove it.

Goalposts, shifted.

Whether or not I think Love's an overrated rebounder (and I do) has no bearing on how his rebounding could be construed as good defense.

  If he gets a lot of defensive rebounds that cuts down on the number of possessions the offense gets. Why wouldn't that be considered helpful to his defense?

[D.o.s.]

edit for the above: since they're largely uncontested, there's little likelihood of them turning into extra possessions for the offense, right?

Love also grabs more uncontested boards than DeAndre Jordan, and some of his immediate contemporaries (and less than others, to be sure) so there's a question to be made about whether or not his defensive rebounding numbers are really an indication of good defense.

  I'm not sure how whether the boards are uncontested or not affect whether they're considered an indication of good defense. I'm also not sure that grabbing uncontested boards means you're a bad rebounder. You can argue that if you can grab a board in traffic then you're the superior rebounder but I thing that grabbing a lot of uncontested boards can indicate that you're better than normal at anticipating where the ball will go after it hits the rim. While they were also good at rebounding in traffic, players like Bird and Rodman were exceptional at this. Not saying it's true in Love's case, but something to consider.

Good point. My feeling is that an uncontested board has no bearing on defense, and given that a large portion of Love's defensive boards are uncontested (unless he's grabbing it over a teammate), it's hard to defend his lack of D with 'but his rebounds.'

[Fafnir]

Goalposts, shifted.

Given that your argument against his defensive rebounding prowess was to use stats that co-mingle offensive/defensive boards without comment on the issue, yup.

[Fafnir]

  If he gets a lot of defensive rebounds that cuts down on the number of possessions the offense gets. Why wouldn't that be considered helpful to his defense?

I usually look at them separately.

Offensive, Defense, and possession creation are all separate things for me. Love excels at 2 of those. I also think his possession creation makes him a net positive defensively though a slight one, which is fine when you're so excellent offensively.

[D.o.s.]

Goalposts, shifted.

Given that your argument against his defensive rebounding prowess was to use stats that co-mingle offensive/defensive boards without comment on the issue, yup.

While you can consider Love a positive addition to the team in the aggregate, using the quantity of his defensive boards as a merit on the defensive end is lazy.