Author Topic: Danny's Draft M.O.  (Read 6306 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Danny's Draft M.O.
« on: May 24, 2014, 12:32:05 PM »

Offline Jon

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Tommy Points: 385
Over the past few days I've been thinking a lot about how Danny Ainge has drafted over the past decade plus that he's been with the Celtics.  As we all know, he's had his fair share of successes and failures.  If you go back through the past decade or so of draft picks that Ainge has made, his greatest successes have come when he's focused on a player's overall skillset, ignoring knocks on his athleticism or height.  His greatest failures have come when he's become overly obsesses with guys who look the part, but don't actually have the skillset to succeed. 

To examine this further, let's look at Ainge's draft history.  For the sake of ease, I'll eliminate second rounders that didn't amount to anything, as this is pretty commonplace for second rounders.  I'll also ignore players that Danny drafted for other teams (since that doesn't necessarily reflect on his values) and add in players who he acquired on draft night (like Rondo).

2003:

Marcus Banks (#13): Clearly a guy who looked the part with his speed and athleticism, but couldn't actually play.

Kendrick Perkins (#27): Slow, can't jump out of the gym, but a key component of the D through the Big 3 Era.

Brandon Hunter (#56): undersized PF out of the league in 2 years, but actually had a few good games.

2004:

Al Jefferson (#15): again, not a KG athletic talent, but the rare youngster with an actual post game.

Delonte West (#24): undersized shooting guard with lots of court savvy.

Tony Allen (#25): undersized shooting guard with tenacious defense.

2005

Gerald Green (#18): Eventually he figured it out, but it took him nearly a decade to do so.  Clearly a guy who looked the part without the head to match. 

Ryan Gomes (#50): another undersized tweener with an above average talent level. 

2006:

Rajon Rondo (#21): a bit of an enigma here, but Ainge ignored his lack of shooting ability and picked a competitor who knew how to play the game. 

Leon Powe (#49): undersized PF with much bigger skills. 

2007:

Glen Davis (#35): undersized PF with plenty of basketball skills. 

2008:

J.R. Giddens (#30): clearly a guy who looked the part, but actually didn't have the game to go with it. 

2010:

Avery Bradley (#19): another undersized shooting guard with nasty defense.

2011:

JaJuan Johnson (#27): another guy who the requisite height and athleticism with no game to match. 

E'Twaun Moore (#55): undersized 2 guard who has carved out a place for himself in the NBA.

2012:

Jared Sullinger (#21): undersized 4 without much athleticism, but has a heck of a lot of talent.

Fab Melo (#22): looked the part better than most, but obviously had no game.

2013:

Kelly Olynyk (#13): knocks on strength and athleticism, but clearly has a high skill level. 


So, if we are going to assume that Ainge will continue on the same trajectory and that he's hopefully learned from his mistakes, it seems increasingly unlikely that if he holds onto the #6 pick that he'll roll the dice on someone who simply has good size or athleticism and is more likely to want to target someone who has good skills, even if he doesn't jump out of the gym or look like LeBron. 

That said, all of that seems to suggest that the guys that would most be on Ainge's radar would be Marcus Smart, Dario Saric, and Doug McDermott.  Smart gets knocked for his size and lack of shot, but clearly is a gamer.  Saric and McDermott get knocked for their lack of athleticism and positional ambiguity. 

Given that there's a chance that one or more of them could be around a little later in the draft, I do wonder if Danny looks to trade down and potentially pick up some more assets from teams who become obsesses with Gordon's athleticism or Vonleh's size. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 01:00:04 PM by Jon »

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 12:43:33 PM »

Offline Timdawgg

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1285
  • Tommy Points: 626
Great Summary.   What would have helped is listed the draft pick #  that is what stands out most of all the drafts he has not had very many high draft picks to use but did the best with what he had available. I also took away he likes undersized guys because that is about half of them...
2025 Fantasy Draft Philadelphia 76ers:
PG: Rajon Rondo '11-'12;  WestBrook; Wall
SG: James Harden '18-'19 Marcus Smart
SF: Andrei Kirilenko '05-'06; Peja Stojakovic
PF: Anthony Davis '17-'18;   Kevin Love, Griffin
C: Amare Stoudemire '04-'05;   Marcus Camby

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 12:58:26 PM »

Offline Jon

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Tommy Points: 385
Great Summary.   What would have helped is listed the draft pick #  that is what stands out most of all the drafts he has not had very many high draft picks to use but did the best with what he had available. I also took away he likes undersized guys because that is about half of them...

Done.

And I think the bigger lesson is not to draft size and athleticism over actual talent.  We saw tons of that with big men during Shaq's heyday in the '90s and 2000s and now we see some of it with athletic wings that teams are trying to matchup with LeBron.  But at the end of the day, you're much better off drafting less ideal, more talented players like a Paul Pierce than someone who can jump out of the gym.  And that extends back much before Ainge, as we can see with the Jerome Moisos and Kedrick Brown's of the world. 

Hopefully Ainge keeps that in mind this draft. 

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2014, 01:03:27 PM »

Offline JBcat

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3707
  • Tommy Points: 515
Great summary.  TP.   How would you say this applies to this year's draft from the 6th pick down the the 17th?

I would say guys like Doug McDermott and TJ Warren are very intriguing players that don't look the part athletically. 

Randle, Vonleh, and Gordon look the part athletically but have question marks.   

I'm intrigued by E Payton with our 17th pick as he could be a real sleeper, and like his skill set. 

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 01:11:42 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1691
  • Tommy Points: 199
I would say that Bradley and Tony Allen are athletic with prototypical size, but didn't have much game coming into the league.  You might be cherry-picking a bit.

I agree with the underlying point though.  Pick guys who can play the game, don't worry about combine results.  I think TJ Warren is a good example.  If you can score 25 a game in the ACC on 50+% shooting, you can score in the league.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2014, 01:25:54 PM »

Offline footey

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16039
  • Tommy Points: 1837
Interesting observation, but Ainge will be facing that dilemma every draft (do I go for the skill guy or the guy who is more athletic)?  And may reach a different answer each time.

Tony Allen selection was one of Ainge's better picks given his position in the draft, and that was a decision to go with athleticism over skill.

In the best of all worlds, you take a guy who has both.  .

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2014, 01:34:41 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123


  You have to consider that Danny was drafting for different reasons in different years.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2014, 02:30:36 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13769
  • Tommy Points: 2061
  • Sometimes there's no sane reason for optimism
I know that Gordon is a guy with superior athleticism, but he also has excellent defensive instincts and seems to have a very good head on his shoulders. The knock on him is that he isn't necessarily a great shooter, but I would consider him one of the safest picks of the draft. You basically know what you are getting (a solid starter in the league for many years), but have the potential to really land a stud if he can put it together offensively.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2014, 03:30:56 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Tommy Points: 586
All good points.

Remember "#5 pick for Ray Allen." This is really Ainge's MO.

What was he planning for each pick?
Some to develop into starters? Maybe.
I think he looks at the kid's tradeability also.
Considering what happened to many of these picks, Ainge got some value when eventually traded them.

Olynyk is a smart 7 footer who can shoot at a high level. Good team player with superior passing. Ainge says..."shooting and overall game will translate...I can trade this kid someday."
If you look at Olynyk's 3pt % in his last 18 games or so, you can see that Ainge's vision..."7 ft 3 point threat + cheap contract = tradeable"

That has to be part of the overall equation and this is why:

For Ainge to get a "star" he needs a young player who might become the Al Jefferson or Sullinger asset in a deal for a star.

What if Fab Melo #25 made the jump and started to become a "good" NBA player? Tony Allen #22 sure did.

Ok, this year's draft...who is that player? The kid who gets drafted, plays a year or two and can become an asset in a deal for a star.

Red drafted some great HOF players didn't he? Look at the draft position for Ainge absolutely nuthin'. Two #13's and the "Ray Allen pick #5" are the highest in 11 years? He has done more with less than most GM's.

He might switch Sullinger for Kevin Love....it's alchemy and Ainge knows the formula....and he's lucky which you gotta be.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 04:40:44 PM »

Offline lon3lytoaster

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4608
  • Tommy Points: 157
  • Word aapp!
Don't forget, Doc had some input during all those years as well, except for this past draft. Not saying that's a bad thing, he didn't ever make the final, final call I'm sure and we did make some great picks, but I doubt his influence was ignored.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 05:28:29 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
danny's good at drafting players that stick around in the league and keep finding work. but I think he'd have better luck finding some players that actually make an impact, if he gets away from the "tweeners" and the undersized players.

it really is the only thing I don't like about him. size and speed is how you win in this league.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2014, 05:51:43 PM »

Offline Casperian

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3501
  • Tommy Points: 545
Then again, our coach was Doc Rivers, who isn't exactly what you'd call a great developer of talent.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2014, 06:14:46 PM »

Offline sahara

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 860
  • Tommy Points: 84
Then again, our coach was Doc Rivers, who isn't exactly what you'd call a great developer of talent.

Doc would bench Embiid over DJ and Jabari Parker over Matt Barnes.

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2014, 03:06:24 AM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Agreed with your theme but you understate the legitimacy of the Celtics selecting Gordon. He's an undersized tweener with great feel for the game, ballhandling/passing skills, can defend multiple positions including the modern game's most important one (SF), and yes, tantalizing athleticism. Wouldn't be disappointed to draft him.


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: Danny's Draft M.O.
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2014, 04:16:51 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
Agreed with your theme but you understate the legitimacy of the Celtics selecting Gordon. He's an undersized tweener with great feel for the game, ballhandling/passing skills, can defend multiple positions including the modern game's most important one (SF), and yes, tantalizing athleticism. Wouldn't be disappointed to draft him.

What people fail to consider that Gordon doesn't actually offer anything that the Celtics need right now.  We need scoring and we need rim protection,  and Gordon offers neither.  His most likely area to excel in the NBA is a a defensive SF,  and we already have two of those in Jeff Green and Gerald Walace.

I have no doubt that Gordon has physical talent,  and I'm absolutely certain he could offer a lot to an nba team that is in desperate need for perimeter defense,  but woth Wallace, Green and Bradley thats the one thing Boston has no need for.  Every other player projected im the top 8 at least has the ability to put points on the board,  which the Celtics really need.

I also don't,think Gordon's trade value will be any higher than other guys in the  5-8 range so no benefit there either.