OKC ousted in 7; Russell Westbrook to Celts; swap lottery pick for Love

[D.o.s.]

The way the Celtics are constructed right now, Westbrook will be a much better fit than Rondo. He's a guy who can make something happen with the ball in his hands. Sure, he holds the ball too much and turn it over more than I'd like -- but as far as I am concerned, his style of play may make guys like Bradley and Green better.

It may sound paradoxical to some, after all, Rondo is the quintessential "pass-first" PG, but I don't think a Rondo-led team will be a great team unless it has great scorers (and Bradley and Green aren't).

Completely agree, then again this year Rondo's problem of not creating for himself was magnified because he was unable to/refused to drive to the basket.

Sounds good -- Except for the fact that he was near the top of the league for drives per game, of course. He actually drove more times per game than Dragic, Bledsoe, Lillard, and Mike Conley.

Don't let numbers stand in your way, though:

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Season=2013-14&pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=&sortField=DVS&sortOrder=DES



Rondo's problem was that he was unable to convert at the rim -- not that he wasn't getting there.

The fact that he drove doesn't mean that he created anything in the process (for himself or for others). As you mentioned, his efficiency on the drive was quite pathetic. Though, somewhat surprisingly to me, Westbrook hasn't been much better in this department last season.

They're both coming off of procedures that affect the way your body reacts to playing hoops in similar ways, so it's really not that surprising.

[slamtheking]

I hate to be extreme, but these trade proposals are just awful.

I would probably get ill to my stomache if the first one happened.  I literally could feel the wretch coming up.

Westbrook is not remotely close to being worth trading Rondo and Olynyk.

IMO, he's not remotely worth Rondo OR Olynyk.   Rondo is just, imho, a signficantly better player at the same position.  Even when resigned he won't be any more expensive than Westbrook.  And he is better.   Olynyk is a seven footer who has shown tremendous upside potential and is on a rookie contract.   No way am I giving either of those up for Westbrook, let alone both.

The other trade is not AS bad, but it is a huge overpay.   Take off either this year's pick or the 2016 BKN pick from the deal and it would be closer to a more realistic deal.

That proposal is quite a bit more than we gave up for Kevin Garnett.   Assuming Sully + Bass are roughly similar value to Big Al & Gomes (and actually, they may be MORE valuable), we only gave up two picks plus filler for KG.   Love is younger, but he's nowhere near what KG was.

always the voice of reason 5M. 

Westbrook is a better shooter than Rondo, when he's on, but Rondo's better at everything else.  Not sold Westbrook would make this team any better.  Adding KO to that swap (if it were to occur) would be overpaying.

been saying all along regarding Love and the variety of trade proposals that everyone is overpaying for him--to a ridiculous extent.  This guy is a terrific scorer and rebounder but his D is poor.  really poor.  While he's an upgrade over Sully (or any other PF we have), how much of an improvement is he?  I don't think all that much, at least not to the extent people are offering everything we have for him.  I really think if Love rated 100, Sully would at least rate an 85.  Why would anyone over pay for that small an improvement?  It's not like we'd be going from Sully to prime KG where there'd be a big difference in talent---improving young player that could average 18/10 in his prime for one of the best PFs to ever play the game.

Love in his prime is not KG in his Celtics days.  not close.  wouldn't pay anything close to what we paid for KG.  Would do Sully, Bass, Fav/Pressey, #17 this year and maybe the Clips pick next year if lottery protected (exchange for Philly's 2 second rounders if pick in the lottery). 

[manl_lui]

The way the Celtics are constructed right now, Westbrook will be a much better fit than Rondo. He's a guy who can make something happen with the ball in his hands. Sure, he holds the ball too much and turn it over more than I'd like -- but as far as I am concerned, his style of play may make guys like Bradley and Green better.

It may sound paradoxical to some, after all, Rondo is the quintessential "pass-first" PG, but I don't think a Rondo-led team will be a great team unless it has great scorers (and Bradley and Green aren't).

Completely agree, then again this year Rondo's problem of not creating for himself was magnified because he was unable to/refused to drive to the basket.

Sounds good -- Except for the fact that he was near the top of the league for drives per game, of course. He actually drove more times per game than Dragic, Bledsoe, Lillard, and Mike Conley.

Don't let numbers stand in your way, though:

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Season=2013-14&pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=&sortField=DVS&sortOrder=DES



Rondo's problem was that he was unable to convert at the rim -- not that he wasn't getting there.

The fact that he drove doesn't mean that he created anything in the process (for himself or for others). As you mentioned, his efficiency on the drive was quite pathetic. Though, somewhat surprisingly to me, Westbrook hasn't been much better in this department last season.

They're both coming off of procedures that affect the way your body reacts to playing hoops in similar ways, so it's really not that surprising.

I tend to agree with this, but I do want to give Rondo another "half of the season" to evaluate before I trade him for Westbrook. You are also right in that, I think Westbrook might be a better fit on this team as constructed right now vs Rondo. Rondo is a great player but I think his skills fits more with a team filled with veteran and more military style aka Doc, Pop, Phil

[D.o.s.]

I hate to be extreme, but these trade proposals are just awful.

I would probably get ill to my stomache if the first one happened.  I literally could feel the wretch coming up.

Westbrook is not remotely close to being worth trading Rondo and Olynyk.

IMO, he's not remotely worth Rondo OR Olynyk.   Rondo is just, imho, a signficantly better player at the same position.  Even when resigned he won't be any more expensive than Westbrook.  And he is better.   Olynyk is a seven footer who has shown tremendous upside potential and is on a rookie contract.   No way am I giving either of those up for Westbrook, let alone both.

The other trade is not AS bad, but it is a huge overpay.   Take off either this year's pick or the 2016 BKN pick from the deal and it would be closer to a more realistic deal.

That proposal is quite a bit more than we gave up for Kevin Garnett.   Assuming Sully + Bass are roughly similar value to Big Al & Gomes (and actually, they may be MORE valuable), we only gave up two picks plus filler for KG.   Love is younger, but he's nowhere near what KG was.

always the voice of reason 5M. 

Westbrook is a better shooter than Rondo, when he's on, but Rondo's better at everything else.  Not sold Westbrook would make this team any better.  Adding KO to that swap (if it were to occur) would be overpaying.

been saying all along regarding Love and the variety of trade proposals that everyone is overpaying for him--to a ridiculous extent.  This guy is a terrific scorer and rebounder but his D is poor.  really poor.  While he's an upgrade over Sully (or any other PF we have), how much of an improvement is he?  I don't think all that much, at least not to the extent people are offering everything we have for him.  I really think if Love rated 100, Sully would at least rate an 85.  Why would anyone over pay for that small an improvement?  It's not like we'd be going from Sully to prime KG where there'd be a big difference in talent---improving young player that could average 18/10 in his prime for one of the best PFs to ever play the game.

Love in his prime is not KG in his Celtics days.  not close.  wouldn't pay anything close to what we paid for KG.  Would do Sully, Bass, Fav/Pressey, #17 this year and maybe the Clips pick next year if lottery protected (exchange for Philly's 2 second rounders if pick in the lottery).

I'd just like to point out that the 100/85 differential is exactly why Rondo isn't all that valuable to a vast majority of teams in the NBA right now -- most of them have point guards that, if they're not better than Rondo, they're at least able to give the 85 that makes trading for him (and that extra 15 rating) superfluous.

[#1P4P]

I have a trade proposal...

Boston trades:

Rondo, Sullinger, Olynyk, Green, Wallace, Bass, Humphries, Pressey, Bradley, Celtics 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020 1st, Nets 2014, 2016, 2018 and TD Garden


to Minnesota for:

Kevin Love and a 3 month supply of Taco Bell XXL Steak Nachos

Do the salaries work? Do you think the Timberwolves take this deal?

[CoachBo]

Speaking as someone who has a favorite team, not favorite players:

Again, I'd rather throw Rondo in the Love deal and take my chances with Rubio.

  With all of your posts knocking Rondo for his poor shooting it's truly fitting that you'd want to take your chances with Rubio. He's deadly from anywhere on the court.

Some of us have a broader, team-oriented view of the game than your one-horse Rondo fixation, Tim.

If you can pull yourelf away from the Rondo posters in your room long enough, I'm sure you'll acknowledge that Love and Rubio are a drastic upgrade from Rondo.

Of course, some of us are interested in winning games and championships, not merely one player.

[BballTim]

The way the Celtics are constructed right now, Westbrook will be a much better fit than Rondo. He's a guy who can make something happen with the ball in his hands. Sure, he holds the ball too much and turn it over more than I'd like -- but as far as I am concerned, his style of play may make guys like Bradley and Green better.

It may sound paradoxical to some, after all, Rondo is the quintessential "pass-first" PG, but I don't think a Rondo-led team will be a great team unless it has great scorers (and Bradley and Green aren't).

Completely agree, then again this year Rondo's problem of not creating for himself was magnified because he was unable to/refused to drive to the basket.

Sounds good -- Except for the fact that he was near the top of the league for drives per game, of course. He actually drove more times per game than Dragic, Bledsoe, Lillard, and Mike Conley.

Don't let numbers stand in your way, though:

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Season=2013-14&pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filters=&sortField=DVS&sortOrder=DES



Rondo's problem was that he was unable to convert at the rim -- not that he wasn't getting there.

The fact that he drove doesn't mean that he created anything in the process (for himself or for others). As you mentioned, his efficiency on the drive was quite pathetic.

  Rondo was 5th in the league in in team points per game from his drives. He clearly created something in the process. An in terms of efficiency, if you compare Rondo's team points per drive with the 4 players above him he's 3rd out of 5, so he wasn't inefficient either overall.
 

[Celtics18]

TP for those stats D.o.s.,

I generally don't like trying to navigate NBA.Com's new stats page;  I find it very unfriendly. Those "driving" numbers are cool, though.  I've never seen those before. 

[kozlodoev]

If you think that the big three were great scorers in 2012 when we went to the conference finals, or even in 2010 when we went to the finals, then the league's pretty full of "great scorers". In the playoffs that year (so out of 16 teams) PP was 21st in the league in scoring, Ray was 32nd and KG was 37th. Not what I'd describe as "great". Good shooters, yes. Great scorers, not really.

Um yes, because raw PPG is a valid measure of scoring ability on a team that (a) denounced hero ball publicly, (b) played with one of the lowest paces in the game, and (c) had three scoring weapons of comparable caliber.

[BballTim]

Speaking as someone who has a favorite team, not favorite players:

Again, I'd rather throw Rondo in the Love deal and take my chances with Rubio.

  With all of your posts knocking Rondo for his poor shooting it's truly fitting that you'd want to take your chances with Rubio. He's deadly from anywhere on the court.

Some of us have a broader, team-oriented view of the game than your one-horse Rondo fixation, Tim.

If you can pull yourelf away from the Rondo posters in your room long enough, I'm sure you'll acknowledge that Love and Rubio are a drastic upgrade from Rondo.

Of course, some of us are interested in winning games and championships, not merely one player.

  Aside from Rondo's glaringly noticeable shooting woes just about every observation that I've seen you make about Rondo that could be measured statistically has been shown to be wrong. I'm sure you equate people paying enough attention to the game to point out what's wrong with your (and other poster's) claims with obsession, I tend to differ. That "posters in your room" comment was pretty clever though. You're the master at misrepresenting other posters and mocking them based on those misrepresentations. It would be more impressive if your snide comments didn't outnumber your insightful basketball comments by about 50-1.

  And, if the Wolves don't trade those two for a while, keep an eye on the Wolves for the next few years. We can get a good look at how likely you are to win a title with a Love-Rubio core.

[kozlodoev]

Speaking as someone who has a favorite team, not favorite players:

Again, I'd rather throw Rondo in the Love deal and take my chances with Rubio.

  With all of your posts knocking Rondo for his poor shooting it's truly fitting that you'd want to take your chances with Rubio. He's deadly from anywhere on the court.

Rubio is a horrible shooter. And yet, he holds a career .330 on three pointers on a non-negligible sample of shots.

[slamtheking]

I hate to be extreme, but these trade proposals are just awful.

I would probably get ill to my stomache if the first one happened.  I literally could feel the wretch coming up.

Westbrook is not remotely close to being worth trading Rondo and Olynyk.

IMO, he's not remotely worth Rondo OR Olynyk.   Rondo is just, imho, a signficantly better player at the same position.  Even when resigned he won't be any more expensive than Westbrook.  And he is better.   Olynyk is a seven footer who has shown tremendous upside potential and is on a rookie contract.   No way am I giving either of those up for Westbrook, let alone both.

The other trade is not AS bad, but it is a huge overpay.   Take off either this year's pick or the 2016 BKN pick from the deal and it would be closer to a more realistic deal.

That proposal is quite a bit more than we gave up for Kevin Garnett.   Assuming Sully + Bass are roughly similar value to Big Al & Gomes (and actually, they may be MORE valuable), we only gave up two picks plus filler for KG.   Love is younger, but he's nowhere near what KG was.

always the voice of reason 5M. 

Westbrook is a better shooter than Rondo, when he's on, but Rondo's better at everything else.  Not sold Westbrook would make this team any better.  Adding KO to that swap (if it were to occur) would be overpaying.

been saying all along regarding Love and the variety of trade proposals that everyone is overpaying for him--to a ridiculous extent.  This guy is a terrific scorer and rebounder but his D is poor.  really poor.  While he's an upgrade over Sully (or any other PF we have), how much of an improvement is he?  I don't think all that much, at least not to the extent people are offering everything we have for him.  I really think if Love rated 100, Sully would at least rate an 85.  Why would anyone over pay for that small an improvement?  It's not like we'd be going from Sully to prime KG where there'd be a big difference in talent---improving young player that could average 18/10 in his prime for one of the best PFs to ever play the game.

Love in his prime is not KG in his Celtics days.  not close.  wouldn't pay anything close to what we paid for KG.  Would do Sully, Bass, Fav/Pressey, #17 this year and maybe the Clips pick next year if lottery protected (exchange for Philly's 2 second rounders if pick in the lottery).

I'd just like to point out that the 100/85 differential is exactly why Rondo isn't all that valuable to a vast majority of teams in the NBA right now -- most of them have point guards that, if they're not better than Rondo, they're at least able to give the 85 that makes trading for him (and that extra 15 rating) superfluous.

noted.  not disagreeing with you.  I think the differential between Westbrook and Rondo is much smaller.

[slamtheking]

Speaking as someone who has a favorite team, not favorite players:

Again, I'd rather throw Rondo in the Love deal and take my chances with Rubio.

  With all of your posts knocking Rondo for his poor shooting it's truly fitting that you'd want to take your chances with Rubio. He's deadly from anywhere on the court.

Some of us have a broader, team-oriented view of the game than your one-horse Rondo fixation, Tim.

If you can pull yourelf away from the Rondo posters in your room long enough, I'm sure you'll acknowledge that Love and Rubio are a drastic upgrade from Rondo.

Of course, some of us are interested in winning games and championships, not merely one player.

  Aside from Rondo's glaringly noticeable shooting woes just about every observation that I've seen you make about Rondo that could be measured statistically has been shown to be wrong. I'm sure you equate people paying enough attention to the game to point out what's wrong with your (and other poster's) claims with obsession, I tend to differ. That "posters in your room" comment was pretty clever though. You're the master at misrepresenting other posters and mocking them based on those misrepresentations. It would be more impressive if your snide comments didn't outnumber your insightful basketball comments by about 50-1.

  And, if the Wolves don't trade those two for a while, keep an eye on the Wolves for the next few years. We can get a good look at how likely you are to win a title with a Love-Rubio core.

TP for you Tim for calling him out.  plenty of snide condescenscion always being dispensed with no facts to back up the opinionated commentary. 

Rubio hasn't lived up to the initial hype.  he's worse than Rondo in every aspect--his 3pt shooting apparently being the anomaly.  if he were the touted upgrade over Rondo, Minny would have made the playoffs.

[BballTim]

If you think that the big three were great scorers in 2012 when we went to the conference finals, or even in 2010 when we went to the finals, then the league's pretty full of "great scorers". In the playoffs that year (so out of 16 teams) PP was 21st in the league in scoring, Ray was 32nd and KG was 37th. Not what I'd describe as "great". Good shooters, yes. Great scorers, not really.

Um yes, because raw PPG is a valid measure of scoring ability on a team that (a) denounced hero ball publicly, (b) played with one of the lowest paces in the game, and (c) had three scoring weapons of comparable caliber.

   a) "denounced hero ball" pretty much means complaining when it happens, b) our pace was about 1 possession per game below the league average, I'll leave it to you to explain how 1 more possession for the team in a game would have a profound effect on those scoring averages and c) they were good, not great scorers.

[BballTim]

Speaking as someone who has a favorite team, not favorite players:

Again, I'd rather throw Rondo in the Love deal and take my chances with Rubio.

  With all of your posts knocking Rondo for his poor shooting it's truly fitting that you'd want to take your chances with Rubio. He's deadly from anywhere on the court.

Rubio is a horrible shooter. And yet, he holds a career .330 on three pointers on a non-negligible sample of shots.

  ...which is still below average.