Author Topic: Greg Monroe: Is he big 3 material?  (Read 7960 times)

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Re: Greg Monroe: Is he big 3 material?
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2014, 08:14:22 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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I would label him as a B+ player, where Big 3 players need to be a solid A or at least an A-.



I don't think it's necessarily this simple.

I think that on floor cohesion / fit is something that needs to be taken into account when talking about Big Threes.  What made the KG / Allen / Pierce grouping so great from first blush was their games were very different and complementary. 

The Miami Thrice, and the Westbrook / Durant / Ibaka grouping in OKC, on the other hand, have dealt with growing pains and arguably haven't been quite as dominant as you'd expect based on the talent on those teams because the stars don't always fit together that well.


My point is that I think a group of 3-4 B+ / A- type players could very well be better than a team with 2-3 As if the former group fits together really well, and the latter does not.  The mid-2000s Pistons team is an example of a unit that fit together really well, too.  The Spurs of the last few years have done great things despite not having a standout superstar player due to overall roster cohesion.

Monroe is a B+ sort of player, true, but I think his sort of game could mesh very well with a variety of teammates.

I agree completely. Fit is as important as all star status. Acquiring a few big names and trying to mush them into a team isn't that easy (look at the Knicks).
On Monroe. I'd be ok with him in the paint if we paired him with a high energy  defender at the 3or 4 (a Gordon?)

Re: Greg Monroe: Is he big 3 material?
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2014, 08:21:58 AM »

Online Roy H.

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No, he's not.  Greg Monroe is basically J.J. Hickson:  a guy who puts up numbers, but is so disinterested / unaware on defense that he kills your team:

Quote from: Zach Lowe on Greg Monroe
[H]e?s a glaring liability on defense in a league getting smaller and quicker. He?s a turnstile trying to contain the pick-and-roll out on the floor ? a mess of bad footwork, poor timing, lazy reaches, and bad choices. When Detroit has him hang back at the foul line, ball handlers can zip around him with an easy crossover or launch wide-open jumpers as Monroe, petrified at giving up a rim run, retreats a step farther than most bigs would dare ? often with his arms down. Pistons fans complained, with some justification, about Lawrence Frank?s reluctance to play Monroe and Drummond together for much of last season, but Monroe?s total inability to guard stretchier power forwards factored into that choice ? just as it should factor into Detroit?s evaluation of things now.

When the Pistons asked Monroe to attack the ball higher on the floor, the mess was almost worse. Point guards can juke Monroe with laughable ease by faking toward a screener, watching Monroe lurch in that direction, and then crossing over the other way and into an unpatrolled lane. Monroe is often late in jumping out above a screen, meaning his momentum is going too hard the wrong way (toward half court) as the opposing point guard revs up to turn the corner. And when Detroit has asked him to hedge sideways, as in the still below, Monroe often arrives too late to cut off the ball handler...

His off-ball defense is similarly unintuitive. Monroe wants to help and has a rudimentary sense of where he should be as the chess pieces move around the floor, but he?s unsure of himself and prone to fatal hesitations and bouts of confusion. He has struggled to develop any chemistry with his big-man partners, so that a lot of Detroit possessions end with late help rotations or both bigs chasing one opposing big man ? each under the impression the other would be elsewhere on the floor. Watching film of Detroit?s defense basically amounts to sitting through an hours-long reel of dunks, shrugged shoulders, and inattentive help; only eight teams allowed more shots at the rim last season, and only three allowed opponents to shoot a higher percentage than the ghastly 61.1 percent Detroit allowed.

http://grantland.com/features/josh-smith-future-detroit-pistons/


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Re: Greg Monroe: Is he big 3 material?
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2014, 11:32:05 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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He has the skills , everything needed to play great ....every night  ???

Would be interested to see what he could do under pressure

At a spot on a team that needed him in the lineup 35 minutes a game and starting .

I would welcome him on the C's .....but not as Center

Like to have Hibbert  at a Center and Monroe at PF

Now now beggars cant be choosers lol
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Re: Greg Monroe: Is he big 3 material?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2014, 06:39:47 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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No, he's not.  Greg Monroe is basically J.J. Hickson:  a guy who puts up numbers, but is so disinterested / unaware on defense that he kills your team:

Quote from: Zach Lowe on Greg Monroe
[H]e?s a glaring liability on defense in a league getting smaller and quicker. He?s a turnstile trying to contain the pick-and-roll out on the floor ? a mess of bad footwork, poor timing, lazy reaches, and bad choices. When Detroit has him hang back at the foul line, ball handlers can zip around him with an easy crossover or launch wide-open jumpers as Monroe, petrified at giving up a rim run, retreats a step farther than most bigs would dare ? often with his arms down. Pistons fans complained, with some justification, about Lawrence Frank?s reluctance to play Monroe and Drummond together for much of last season, but Monroe?s total inability to guard stretchier power forwards factored into that choice ? just as it should factor into Detroit?s evaluation of things now.

When the Pistons asked Monroe to attack the ball higher on the floor, the mess was almost worse. Point guards can juke Monroe with laughable ease by faking toward a screener, watching Monroe lurch in that direction, and then crossing over the other way and into an unpatrolled lane. Monroe is often late in jumping out above a screen, meaning his momentum is going too hard the wrong way (toward half court) as the opposing point guard revs up to turn the corner. And when Detroit has asked him to hedge sideways, as in the still below, Monroe often arrives too late to cut off the ball handler...

His off-ball defense is similarly unintuitive. Monroe wants to help and has a rudimentary sense of where he should be as the chess pieces move around the floor, but he?s unsure of himself and prone to fatal hesitations and bouts of confusion. He has struggled to develop any chemistry with his big-man partners, so that a lot of Detroit possessions end with late help rotations or both bigs chasing one opposing big man ? each under the impression the other would be elsewhere on the floor. Watching film of Detroit?s defense basically amounts to sitting through an hours-long reel of dunks, shrugged shoulders, and inattentive help; only eight teams allowed more shots at the rim last season, and only three allowed opponents to shoot a higher percentage than the ghastly 61.1 percent Detroit allowed.

http://grantland.com/features/josh-smith-future-detroit-pistons/

I wonder how much of this has to do with Monroe being played at the 4, and lacking a consistent role / playing time?  With a stable coaching situation and a solid role playing at center, could he become an acceptable defender?
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Re: Greg Monroe: Is he big 3 material?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2014, 08:18:00 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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No, he's not.  Greg Monroe is basically J.J. Hickson:  a guy who puts up numbers, but is so disinterested / unaware on defense that he kills your team:

Quote from: Zach Lowe on Greg Monroe
[H]e?s a glaring liability on defense in a league getting smaller and quicker. He?s a turnstile trying to contain the pick-and-roll out on the floor ? a mess of bad footwork, poor timing, lazy reaches, and bad choices. When Detroit has him hang back at the foul line, ball handlers can zip around him with an easy crossover or launch wide-open jumpers as Monroe, petrified at giving up a rim run, retreats a step farther than most bigs would dare ? often with his arms down. Pistons fans complained, with some justification, about Lawrence Frank?s reluctance to play Monroe and Drummond together for much of last season, but Monroe?s total inability to guard stretchier power forwards factored into that choice ? just as it should factor into Detroit?s evaluation of things now.

When the Pistons asked Monroe to attack the ball higher on the floor, the mess was almost worse. Point guards can juke Monroe with laughable ease by faking toward a screener, watching Monroe lurch in that direction, and then crossing over the other way and into an unpatrolled lane. Monroe is often late in jumping out above a screen, meaning his momentum is going too hard the wrong way (toward half court) as the opposing point guard revs up to turn the corner. And when Detroit has asked him to hedge sideways, as in the still below, Monroe often arrives too late to cut off the ball handler...

His off-ball defense is similarly unintuitive. Monroe wants to help and has a rudimentary sense of where he should be as the chess pieces move around the floor, but he?s unsure of himself and prone to fatal hesitations and bouts of confusion. He has struggled to develop any chemistry with his big-man partners, so that a lot of Detroit possessions end with late help rotations or both bigs chasing one opposing big man ? each under the impression the other would be elsewhere on the floor. Watching film of Detroit?s defense basically amounts to sitting through an hours-long reel of dunks, shrugged shoulders, and inattentive help; only eight teams allowed more shots at the rim last season, and only three allowed opponents to shoot a higher percentage than the ghastly 61.1 percent Detroit allowed.

http://grantland.com/features/josh-smith-future-detroit-pistons/

I wonder how much of this has to do with Monroe being played at the 4, and lacking a consistent role / playing time?  With a stable coaching situation and a solid role playing at center, could he become an acceptable defender?

Zach Lowe has also wondered the same. From his most recent article:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/taking-the-mo-out-of-motown-cheeks-couldnt-wrangle-detroits-three-headed-monster/

Quote
Cheeks likely should have gone to such setups more aggressively, and earlier. Perhaps he was headed that way. But the casualty in that process had too often been Monroe, lately left to rot on the bench during fourth quarters ? Detroit?s ugly undoing for much of this season, in many awful fall-from-ahead losses. Monroe and Drummond, the frontcourt of the future, barely got any time together without Smith; such lineups (using the same 15-minute qualifier to root out tiny sample sizes) have logged only 72 minutes together combined all season, per NBA.com. That?s not good for Monroe?s progress, the team?s growth, or Monroe?s trade value as he approaches restricted free agency.

In a broader sense, things just weren?t quite right. Smith?s shot selection is grotesquely out of control in a way no team should permit. The Pistons too often look completely clueless and disorganized on defense, as I detailed with visuals here. Brandon Jennings remains a bad defender who mopes and too often plays without effort. Cheeks could not settle on one strategy for how Monroe and Drummond should defend the high pick-and-roll. They?d jump out hard on ball handlers on one possession, and drop back toward the foul line a few possessions later. Some coaches build such game-to-game adjustments into coherent game plans depending on their own rotations and the specifics of each opponent. Some teams are smart and experienced enough to manage that kind of constant change.

That didn?t appear to be what was happening in Detroit. Miscommunication was rampant; two defenders involved in a pick-and-roll often had different understandings of how they were to defend the play, and rotations behind the action were incoherent.
Detroit was hemorrhaging the easiest baskets in the game ? open corner 3s (only Philly has allowed more) and shots at the rim off cuts, per Synergy Sports.

Some of that was inevitable. Jennings is a poor defender. Monroe is slow-footed and low to the ground. He has good hands that help him generate steals, but he has trouble containing pick-and-rolls and challenging shots at the rim ? a killer combination of liabilities. Drummond will be an elite rim protector someday and shows flashes of being one now. But he?s just 20, with shaky footwork in space, late timing on weakside rotations, and some bad habits typical of young players. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, recently demoted, has had some wonderful moments as an on-ball defender, but he has struggled like most rookies to pick up the fast-paced nuances of NBA-level rotations away from the ball.

To expect instant success, on either end, was unrealistic. But a better coach would have the Pistons in a better place by now.

Lowe wrote similar comments a month earlier:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-pistons-shouldnt-be-this-bad/

Quote
Monroe and Drummond have great hands, fantastic for the pickpocket steals that fuel Detroit?s high theft rate, but their footwork and decision-making are poor. Monroe?s issues are well documented. He inspires zero fear at the basket, and he?s not the quickest cat. He?s certainly not quick enough to execute a scheme that often asks him to jump out aggressively against pick-and-rolls, chasing little point guards 25 feet from the hoop.

. . . .

Detroit is big, slow, and clunky, but it shouldn?t be this bad. And if it remains so, it will raise painful questions about Monroe?s future on the team. He?s a bit of a liability on defense, but he?s a freaking beast on offense and the glass. His quick hands produce legitimate benefits on defense (namely, steals), he cleans the glass, and he might function well in a different system, aside a top rim protector ? perhaps Drummond in a couple of years. You don?t deal a big guy with these skills, at age 23, just because you overpaid for an older guy who plays the same position.

It's going to be an interesting offseason in Detroit. Dumars will be leaving, they have to get a new head coach (their sixth in seven seasons, incredibly), and it seems as though either Smith or Monroe is going to have to go.
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