There's no need to be outraged over losses [edited]

[nickagneta]

BTW, I have seen some questioning of fandom, which I think is wrong. I guess tankers and non-tankers alike are all fans.

But the last few years the game threads went from a positive vibe to an extremely negative vibe with lots of posters just laying waste with negative and over the top criticism, often calling the coach and the players names and just excoriating this team.

Has no one else noticed that a lot of these posters that were doing this are the same group of posters that are cheering for losses and ripping this team a new one whenever they win?

Now maybe where I come from in place and time, being a fan of a team meant something different but if this is the new way to be a fan(when your team is mediocre to good to berate them and when they stink to cheer for losses) then I guess I am just out of touch with the times. But if that's what being a fan is nowadays, then I am dang glad I taught my kids a different way to be a fan.

Happy tanking.

[sofutomygaha]

This might be a left turn, here, but did anyone else note that the Celtics had every reason to lose while the Bobcats had every reason to win... and yet there is las vegas providing me the opportunity to turn $200 into $300 by betting on a Celtics loss. I may be paranoid, but I feel pretty sure there are forces at work putting a lower limit on how fully anyone can tank.

[PhoSita]

BTW, I have seen some questioning of fandom, which I think is wrong. I guess tankers and non-tankers alike are all fans.

But the last few years the game threads went from a positive vibe to an extremely negative vibe with lots of posters just laying waste with negative and over the top criticism, often calling the coach and the players names and just excoriating this team.

Has no one else noticed that a lot of these posters that were doing this are the same group of posters that are cheering for losses and ripping this team a new one whenever they win?

Now maybe where I come from in place and time, being a fan of a team meant something different but if this is the new way to be a fan(when your team is mediocre to good to berate them and when they stink to cheer for losses) then I guess I am just out of touch with the times. But if that's what being a fan is nowadays, then I am dang glad I taught my kids a different way to be a fan.

Happy tanking.

Yeah, I get where you're coming from.  The game threads are generally not a very happy place, and haven't been for a while.

I think the last few years have been tough, and it will get better.

At first, we were dealing with an older team in decline that often (seemingly) took regular season games off.  Even when they tried, they sometimes got beaten by teams that were younger, bigger, faster, more athletic, and more energetic, yet far less talented.  It's hard to watch your team lose by virtue of not having the energy to try harder.  Still, they made up for it in the playoffs, for the most part.

Last year, the team was a total mess.  Mediocre in the worst way -- veterans getting paid above their production, old guys looking tired or taking games off, a team that generally didn't seem to fit together nearly as well as expected.  And then there was a wave of injuries, including one of the marquee guys.  It was all a major letdown after the 2012 playoffs gave some (largely irrational) hope to the fanbase.

This year is the worst case scenario, basically.  We have a team that is built to lose and yet half the roster is comprised of veterans who have peaked as role players.  Most of the players here probably have no future with the team.  There's no clear-cut young star to pin our hopes on.  Nobody on the team really plays with an "it" factor that makes the team exciting to watch even when they lose.  The only guy on the team who can really do that is a mercurial veteran point guard, polarizing even in a good year, recovering from a major knee injury.  Pretty close to a perfect storm for fan negativity, it seems.


Hopefully the deck gets cleared a bit this summer, the draft brings in a young guy with star potential, Rondo comes back fully healthy next year and with something to prove, and the roster is constructed in a clear, intentional way (other than for losing).

I think we'll see more general optimism and positivity and less gleeful tearing down of the team, or cheering for losses, once the team has a clear and obvious direction and there's some more exciting talent to watch out on the floor.  It's just hard to have too much loyalty or be very optimistic about a team featuring Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, and Kris Humphries.  It's hard to get too attached when in all likelihood most of the prominent players will be continuing their careers elsewhere after the next year or so.

[Tr1boy]

BTW, I have seen some questioning of fandom, which I think is wrong. I guess tankers and non-tankers alike are all fans.

But the last few years the game threads went from a positive vibe to an extremely negative vibe with lots of posters just laying waste with negative and over the top criticism, often calling the coach and the players names and just excoriating this team.

Has no one else noticed that a lot of these posters that were doing this are the same group of posters that are cheering for losses and ripping this team a new one whenever they win?

Now maybe where I come from in place and time, being a fan of a team meant something different but if this is the new way to be a fan(when your team is mediocre to good to berate them and when they stink to cheer for losses) then I guess I am just out of touch with the times. But if that's what being a fan is nowadays, then I am dang glad I taught my kids a different way to be a fan.

Happy tanking.

+1. It's horrible imo.

Every game i've watched this season, even if its vs teams we have little to no chance of beating, i'm hoping we are going to win.    And like many have said , you play like crap on purpose and bad luck will follow you.  The year we missed out on Duncan, we played like crap on purpose and we all know what happened next. The year we missed out on Durant/Oden, at least that team tried to win.  Just the team wasn't good enough. We missed out on Durant/Oden but instead won a championship.

Even if you tank on purpose like the cavs did got to draft Lebron, things didn't workout for the best in the long run. Look at that team now plus they got nothing for Lebron.

Bottom line is, work hard and good things will happen.  Don't try to "cheat" , or else we could become like the bobcats or bucks and be cursed for a long time

[Chief]

BTW, I have seen some questioning of fandom, which I think is wrong. I guess tankers and non-tankers alike are all fans.

But the last few years the game threads went from a positive vibe to an extremely negative vibe with lots of posters just laying waste with negative and over the top criticism, often calling the coach and the players names and just excoriating this team.

Has no one else noticed that a lot of these posters that were doing this are the same group of posters that are cheering for losses and ripping this team a new one whenever they win?

Now maybe where I come from in place and time, being a fan of a team meant something different but if this is the new way to be a fan(when your team is mediocre to good to berate them and when they stink to cheer for losses) then I guess I am just out of touch with the times. But if that's what being a fan is nowadays, then I am dang glad I taught my kids a different way to be a fan.

Happy tanking.

Yeah, I remember some people overly criticizing KO before he even played a real NBA game.

[PhoSita]

Yeah, I remember some people overly criticizing KO before he even played a real NBA game.

[nickagneta]

BTW, I have seen some questioning of fandom, which I think is wrong. I guess tankers and non-tankers alike are all fans.

But the last few years the game threads went from a positive vibe to an extremely negative vibe with lots of posters just laying waste with negative and over the top criticism, often calling the coach and the players names and just excoriating this team.

Has no one else noticed that a lot of these posters that were doing this are the same group of posters that are cheering for losses and ripping this team a new one whenever they win?

Now maybe where I come from in place and time, being a fan of a team meant something different but if this is the new way to be a fan(when your team is mediocre to good to berate them and when they stink to cheer for losses) then I guess I am just out of touch with the times. But if that's what being a fan is nowadays, then I am dang glad I taught my kids a different way to be a fan.

Happy tanking.

Yeah, I remember some people overly criticizing KO before he even played a real NBA game.

Being wrong about an assessment of a player and ripping an entire team over and over again, IMO, are two different things. I have stated I was wrong about KO once he started to play like a real NBA player, somewhere around the half way point of the season. I haven't been critical of him lately except to maybe say I could never see him becoming the 2nd best player on a championship squad. I don't think that's outlandishly critical.

Also, I said the best player from this year's draft would be Michael Carter Williams and that he was the player I wanted Danny to draft or trade up and draft for. So I guess my evaluation skills aren't complete garbage.


 

[LilRip]

My guess is that the tanker/anti-tanker divide comes down to one of personality, as often do political differences. For the tanker/anti-tanker split my further guess is that the famous psychology test involving marshmallows and delayed gratification would work as a rough operating proxy.

Nah, that's bogus. This isn't my taxes or my rent or making reasonable purchases with my credit card -- this is sports. I want my team to win. I want my marshmallow now, because I can spend my life being 'responsible' and 'doing the smart thing' in a whole variety of boring ways all the time.

Everyone watches sports to be entertained. Not many people find waiting a handful of seasons to watch your favorite team regain competency to be fun.

You may want your marshmallow now, but reality is, there is no marshmallow. If that's the reality, then following your logic about how "I can spend my life being responsible and reasonable and whatnot", what's wrong with changing your perception about reality when it comes to sports?

From a "tanker's" point of view, if every loss is a win and every win is a loss, then the Celtics are actually on a 55-win season rather than a 24-win one. And right now, the C's are fighting for home-court advantage in the lottery/playoffs

[clover]

My guess is that the tanker/anti-tanker divide comes down to one of personality, as often do political differences. For the tanker/anti-tanker split my further guess is that the famous psychology test involving marshmallows and delayed gratification would work as a rough operating proxy.

Nah, that's bogus. This isn't my taxes or my rent or making reasonable purchases with my credit card -- this is sports. I want my team to win. I want my marshmallow now, because I can spend my life being 'responsible' and 'doing the smart thing' in a whole variety of boring ways all the time.

Everyone watches sports to be entertained. Not many people find waiting a handful of seasons to watch your favorite team regain competency to be fun.

But that's exactly my point. Some folks just have a preference for the single marshmallow now, as far as the C's go, and some want to hold out for the hope of two marshmallows in the future.

Whether or not they find it to be fun, it's pretty clear from this board that some fans favor the win-some-now approach, and some want to slog through the tanking for the hope of a brighter future.

Different folks. Different strokes.

[Surferdad]

I dont think of tanking in the way that is it being discussed on this thread.  I accept their word when the coach and players say they are not tanking. I have maintained all season long that only the off court Celtics management can tank by holding the best players out of games for injuries, real or imagined. We've seen this happen across the league and in past seasons, especially in the last 10 games or so of the season.  This in fact has been the only part of the season I have been pro-tank.  Of course, one person has ultimate control of this and that is Danny Ainge.

[Chief]

BTW, I have seen some questioning of fandom, which I think is wrong. I guess tankers and non-tankers alike are all fans.

But the last few years the game threads went from a positive vibe to an extremely negative vibe with lots of posters just laying waste with negative and over the top criticism, often calling the coach and the players names and just excoriating this team.

Has no one else noticed that a lot of these posters that were doing this are the same group of posters that are cheering for losses and ripping this team a new one whenever they win?

Now maybe where I come from in place and time, being a fan of a team meant something different but if this is the new way to be a fan(when your team is mediocre to good to berate them and when they stink to cheer for losses) then I guess I am just out of touch with the times. But if that's what being a fan is nowadays, then I am dang glad I taught my kids a different way to be a fan.

Happy tanking.

Yeah, I remember some people overly criticizing KO before he even played a real NBA game.

Being wrong about an assessment of a player and ripping an entire team over and over again, IMO, are two different things. I have stated I was wrong about KO once he started to play like a real NBA player, somewhere around the half way point of the season. I haven't been critical of him lately except to maybe say I could never see him becoming the 2nd best player on a championship squad. I don't think that's outlandishly critical.

Also, I said the best player from this year's draft would be Michael Carter Williams and that he was the player I wanted Danny to draft or trade up and draft for. So I guess my evaluation skills aren't complete garbage.

Nick, I was just messing with you. I think you usually do have good insight and evaluations. My point is that everyone has someone or something they rip in the forums. Right now there is a good bit of Rondo bashing. I don't agree but I welcome those people's opinions. I have constantly ripped Bass and  Rivers for years. It's just my opinion. I try to point out why I feel that way in the game thread as the plays are happening. But I don't think any of that stuff is total negativity, I just think it is how some people watch basketball.

[BballTim]

I dont think of tanking in the way that is it being discussed on this thread.  I accept their word when the coach and players say they are not tanking. I have maintained all season long that only the off court Celtics management can tank by holding the best players out of games for injuries, real or imagined. We've seen this happen across the league and in past seasons, especially in the last 10 games or so of the season.  This in fact has been the only part of the season I have been pro-tank.  Of course, one person has ultimate control of this and that is Danny Ainge.

  It's interesting the way the tanking debate has evolved over the course of the season. before the season and earlier in the season the pro-tank crowd was by and large advocating trades to make the team worse (at least for this year, although a lot of the proposals were just plain losers) with a higher draft pick as the payoff. After the trade deadline passed and that avenue was no longer available they were suddenly pragmatic, big picture people patiently explaining that it's better to have a high draft pick than a low one. IMO the majority of the anti-tank crowd was more the "don't unload all your players for a spin on the lottery wheel" type and less of the "I'd rather win an extra 3 games than have a high draft pick" crowd.

[guava_wrench]

I dont think of tanking in the way that is it being discussed on this thread.  I accept their word when the coach and players say they are not tanking. I have maintained all season long that only the off court Celtics management can tank by holding the best players out of games for injuries, real or imagined. We've seen this happen across the league and in past seasons, especially in the last 10 games or so of the season.  This in fact has been the only part of the season I have been pro-tank.  Of course, one person has ultimate control of this and that is Danny Ainge.

  It's interesting the way the tanking debate has evolved over the course of the season. before the season and earlier in the season the pro-tank crowd was by and large advocating trades to make the team worse (at least for this year, although a lot of the proposals were just plain losers) with a higher draft pick as the payoff. After the trade deadline passed and that avenue was no longer available they were suddenly pragmatic, big picture people patiently explaining that it's better to have a high draft pick than a low one. IMO the majority of the anti-tank crowd was more the "don't unload all your players for a spin on the lottery wheel" type and less of the "I'd rather win an extra 3 games than have a high draft pick" crowd.

I think there is a whole spectrum of views. I was pretty consistently indifferent to results this year but against giving up assets for nothing. My view was we needed to target a few years down the road, but we can't give up talent like Rondo without getting good value back. I was very pro Crawford trade because I didn't see him as an asset of real value.

I was against any trade that attempted to make us better this year by exchanging players such that it was clear that the other team would have more value in 2 years.

Sure, there were dump everyone and bottom out people, but they were not the majority. They were just the ones who end up posting a lot because people argue with them more.

Any talk of players tanking was pure nonsense. Players don't do that because they are always playing for their career and their legacy. No player is going to advocate the view that some rookie is needed to make their team better.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Somebody please provide a logical argument that winning this last game or any of the last 3 is beneficial at all... or are you the people who are happy we sat through a losing season so we could mess up our draft stock in the last 4 games playing this awful conference and excuse for playoff teams?

Here's a hint.. when Fakers fans want you to win... its probably not the correct path to be on...

Cheers to talking about our next win... hopefully itll be 14/15

Since this guy said this...

This is what I see when I read this thread.

"Strategy?  Strategy?  What?  You all are so naive if you believe in a strategy.  All the experts are stupid.  STUPID!  And they don't know anything.  And there is no difference between the 1st pick and the 5th pick and the 18th pick because 2007 and Tim Duncan.  Win every game no matter what.  NO STRATEGY!  And anyone who cares about a long term vision of improving the team through the draft:  IDIOTS!  That's what I call them.  Hustle and win is the only strategy and we will win  the championship if we win games.  Win games!  Cause I love the Celtics, I am blind to any other possible strategy of improving besides:  Win the next game.

I feel like I'm permitted to do this now...okay I was never above this in the first place...but basically...


Tankers: "Gotta lose gotta lose YEAH!  Make it 10 in a row!!!"
[Wins against Bobcats]
Tankers: "We're screwed"
Non-Tankers: "It's not that bad...tanking was never a guarantee anyway. It's one single win...bound to happen..."
Tankers: "YOU WANT US TO WIN!? SHORTSIGHTED FOOLS! Do you understand the implications!? THE IMPLICATIONS!?"

At the end of the day, it's not like ROOTING for the team one way or another makes much of a difference.





That's it for me. I'm not going to further* derail this thread. Hopefully it doesn't go further and goes back to TP for tears, an awesome premise.

Thats not a logical argument... thats being blinded by the green colored goggles. It was a trick questio, because there is no logical reason to win these last games. Seriously a few wins could be the difference between pick 3-9... meaningless wins...

I know theres no guarentee at an all star or draft position but why ruin our chances with wins that mean nothing? After we sat through this season...

[dang] it. Here I am again. But the thread has gone off track anyway.



I was not arguing for wins. I was arguing for not freaking out over losses.

Tankers claim that non-tankers not speaking the same language, citing lottery odds, and call the argument that there's no guaranteed superstar a fallacy.

But the fact that there's only about 10 guys at any given point who could put you over the top, the fact that the draft is such a crap shoot, the fact that even home runs (like Rose, like Love) may befall to extenuating circumstances, the fact that there's only been a few drafts as epic as 2003 making the odds of another one happening slim...this is not ignoring the lottery odds, this is putting our lottery odds in context.

I really love the argument by NBAStatGeek. Putting all your faith in one pick is setting up for failure. There is so much at play. First round picks are valuable when you get a lot of them, increasing the likelihood of hitting (not to mention the trade value of firsts).

----

And that is if you ignore all the possible benefits of fielding a competitive team and keeping your decent players.

For example, fielding a semi-competitive team and competing night in night out is far better for player development than getting blown out by 40 every night.

It builds some sort of culture, which helps our high draft pick develop if we keep it. Brad Stevens gets some experience.

As someone in this thread has said, the 76ers have a lot of top picks but without vet leadership, without a winning culture, they could end up being a complete train wreck. Only maybe about 3 guys in the league today (LeBron, Durant, CP3; Anthony Davis in the future) can single handedly turn a team around. So the 6ers better hope to god they draft another one of those.

Ideally you lose competitively. But I think wins are a cost of doing business that I'm willing to take.

[LilRip]

it's off-topic, but i couldn't help but chime in about the Sixers.

Their team sucked with Turner and Hawes and their team sucks without Turner and Hawes. IMO, their GM has done a wonderful job making lemonade from his lemons. He has MCW. He has Noel. He has 2 lottery picks. He could pick up another good player with the draft or - as many on here like to propose - he could package his top5 pick in a trade for someone like Kevin Love.

Also, he gave his team future financial flexibility with the trades. I doubt 76ers had any plans of resigning Turner and Hawes to $8m or $11/yr, respectively, which both could've commanded. Instead, he converted them to draft picks (albeit 2nd rounders) as opposed to just letting them walk away for nothing.

What will they do with the cap space? With a team of MCW, Noel, Love, they could be players in 2015. Who knows, if they package MCW+pick away for another vet like Melo, then they could sign Rondo in 2015. That's a lot of what-if's, I know, but I'm purposefully mirroring the popular posts on here to show that the 76ers haven't exactly mismanaged their situation.