Wow--the C's really melting in crunch time

[MBunge]

When you don't even have a #2 option, let alone a #1 option, what did you expect was going to happen when the defenses really clamp down (i.e. the end of close games)?

Yep. And if Rondo, Green, Sully and Bradley aren't anywhere near #1 or #2 options, you've gotta believe Danny is open to drafting and trading anyone and anything to improve the team.

(I do think KO will end up being a #2 option on a championship team--somewhere, somehow.)

Whoa! KO a #2 option on a championship team? Stunned.

If KO is a #2 option on a championship team, he's playing in Europe.

I've got about 15 years to be proven wrong.

Don't worry...you will be.

Who was the second option when Hakeem won his titles?  Kenny Smith?  Mario Ellie?  Instead of saying #2 option on a championship team, ask if KO can be Jason Terry.  I don't think you can absolutely say "no" to that right now.

Mike

Yeah, I can.

When he was a 22 year old rookie, roughly the same age KO is now, Jason Terry averaged 8.1 pts and 4.3 assists a game, shooting 42% from the field and 29% from three.  Yeah, that guy was obviously going to be the 2nd option on a squad that beats a team with one of best players in NBA history.

Mike

[MBunge]

Who was the second option when Hakeem won his titles?  Kenny Smith?  Mario Ellie?

Um... Clyde Drexler, Robert Horry, Vernon Maxwell and Othis Thorpe. Just in case you really wondered.

Clyde, and an old Clyde at that, was only there for the 2nd title.  If you think you already know that KO can't be as good as any of those other 5...what is is the kids say?  "You better check yourself before you wreck yourself"?

Mike

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Lets agree that 2nd option on a championship team is a pretty open ended term. Anything from Scottie Pippen to Kenny Smith?

[kozlodoev]

Who was the second option when Hakeem won his titles?  Kenny Smith?  Mario Ellie?

Um... Clyde Drexler, Robert Horry, Vernon Maxwell and Othis Thorpe. Just in case you really wondered.

Clyde, and an old Clyde at that, was only there for the 2nd title.  If you think you already know that KO can't be as good as any of those other 5...what is is the kids say?  "You better check yourself before you wreck yourself"?

Perhaps

Mike

"Old" Clyde still contributed 21 ppg in the regular season and 19 ppg in the playoffs that year.

In fact, there are 4 people on the list, the second and the third options in the two championship years. This was to illustrate that neither of those were the players you mentioned. If the discussion is about the actual second options on each of those team (Drexler and Thorpe), yes, I'm pretty confident Olynyk will never be as good as either of them. It's not really a difficult one to call.

When he was a 22 year old rookie, roughly the same age KO is now, Jason Terry averaged 8.1 pts and 4.3 assists a game, shooting 42% from the field and 29% from three.  Yeah, that guy was obviously going to be the 2nd option on a squad that beats a team with one of best players in NBA history.

I guess we should know about this really soon then, since Terry came back the subsequent season, and averaged 20 ppg. That's what we're all expecting from Olynyk next year, correct?

[kozlodoev]

Lets agree that 2nd option on a championship team is a pretty open ended term. Anything from Scottie Pippen to Kenny Smith?

You agree that Kenny Smith, a guy who took less than 10 shots a game in each of Houston's championship seasons, and generally played less than 30 mpg was a "second option"?! 

Can we agree instead that people will do their homework before making outrageous claims?

[moiso]

When you don't even have a #2 option, let alone a #1 option, what did you expect was going to happen when the defenses really clamp down (i.e. the end of close games)?

Yep. And if Rondo, Green, Sully and Bradley aren't anywhere near #1 or #2 options, you've gotta believe Danny is open to drafting and trading anyone and anything to improve the team.

(I do think KO will end up being a #2 option on a championship team--somewhere, somehow.)

I don't necessarily think that your KO prediction will come true, but it can't positively be ruled out like the other posters claim.  Nobody knows how good he will be.  He has a ton of offensive skills that may eventually consistently come out.

I can predict that he will never be a good defender, but I can't say that he will never score the second most points on a championship team.  It's too early for that prediction.

[kozlodoev]

I can predict that he will never be a good defender, but I can't say that he will never score the second most points on a championship team.  It's too early for that prediction.

The problem is, it's hard for someone who's not a good defender to play enough on a championship team to score the second-most points.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

When you don't even have a #2 option, let alone a #1 option, what did you expect was going to happen when the defenses really clamp down (i.e. the end of close games)?

Yep. And if Rondo, Green, Sully and Bradley aren't anywhere near #1 or #2 options, you've gotta believe Danny is open to drafting and trading anyone and anything to improve the team.

(I do think KO will end up being a #2 option on a championship team--somewhere, somehow.)

Whoa! KO a #2 option on a championship team? Stunned.

Lol

[moiso]

I can predict that he will never be a good defender, but I can't say that he will never score the second most points on a championship team.  It's too early for that prediction.

The problem is, it's hard for someone who's not a good defender to play enough on a championship team to score the second-most points.

Dirk was a pretty bad defender in his rookie year and he became the leading scorer on a championship team.  He was a pretty bad offensive player in his rookie year also.

[kozlodoev]

I can predict that he will never be a good defender, but I can't say that he will never score the second most points on a championship team.  It's too early for that prediction.

The problem is, it's hard for someone who's not a good defender to play enough on a championship team to score the second-most points.

Dirk was a pretty bad defender in his rookie year and he became the leading scorer on a championship team.  He was a pretty bad offensive player in his rookie year also.

He was also 20 years old and played a total of 950 minutes. And even so, he wasn't even close to Olynyk's eye-popping 6 PFs per 36.

[MBunge]

Lets agree that 2nd option on a championship team is a pretty open ended term. Anything from Scottie Pippen to Kenny Smith?

You agree that Kenny Smith, a guy who took less than 10 shots a game in each of Houston's championship seasons, and generally played less than 30 mpg was a "second option"?! 

Can we agree instead that people will do their homework before making outrageous claims?

Yes, we can all agree on that.  For example, it would be nice if someone knew that Otis Thorpe averaged a whopping 14 pts and 8 rebounds a game as the 2nd option for the 1994 NBA Champion Houston Rockets.  If someone knew that, then they'd either NOT claim such performance is beyond imagining for KO or NOT claim that Thorpe was the 2nd option on a title winning team.  If only someone had done their homework on that.

Mike

[MBunge]

I guess we should know about this really soon then, since Terry came back the subsequent season, and averaged 20 ppg. That's what we're all expecting from Olynyk next year, correct?

How many people thought Terry was going to do that his 2nd year in the league, after how he performed as a rookie?

Mike

[kozlodoev]

Yes, we can all agree on that.  For example, it would be nice if someone knew that Otis Thorpe averaged a whopping 14 pts and 8 rebounds a game as the 2nd option for the 1994 NBA Champion Houston Rockets.  If someone knew that, then they'd either NOT claim such performance is beyond imagining for KO or NOT claim that Thorpe was the 2nd option on a title winning team.  If only someone had done their homework on that.

Oh, good, you looked that up. Did you also look up the contributions of Kenny Smith and Mario Elie, who you were so generously trying to peddle as "second options" on those Rockets championship teams? And how about Drexler?

There is an argument that Vernon Maxwell was the second option on this team, especially in the playoffs -- but he was probably a better player than Olynyk would ever be, too.

And yeah, there's no comparing in talent between Olynyk and Otis Thorpe (who was a 17-20 and 10 guy for most of his prime). Sorry.

[crimson_stallion]

I actually think Olynyk could become a much better player than many people think.

The guys is averaging something like 16 / 9 / 3 per 36 minutes as a rookie.  I'm pretty sure he's putting up numbers as good as (or better then) Sully did last season, but unlike Sully he shouldn't be held back as much by his body type or his health.

I think with improved conditioning and more experience, Olynyk has the potential to be a Rasheed Wallace style producer (minus the defense) - I.e. around a 17/9 big man with an inside / out game.

[D.o.s.]

I actually think Olynyk could become a much better player than many people think.

The guys is averaging something like 16 / 9 / 3 per 36 minutes as a rookie.  I'm pretty sure he's putting up numbers as good as (or better then) Sully did last season, but unlike Sully he shouldn't be held back as much by his body type or his health.

I think with improved conditioning and more experience, Olynyk has the potential to be a Rasheed Wallace style producer (minus the defense) - I.e. around a 17/9 big man with an inside / out game.

I know I bring this up every time, but it's one of the great illustrative things about how people can use statistics, why people use statistics, and what they omit and include.

Kelly Olynyk is averaging 5.9 personal fouls per 36. At one point, earlier this season, he was averaging 6.1.  His per 36 numbers are dangerous to use as a projection/in a vaccum, because, likely, no one is going to leave Kelly Olynyk in the game for 36 minutes if he's accruing fouls at that rate.