Author Topic: Would you really tank?  (Read 26083 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Would you really tank?
« on: March 10, 2014, 09:58:55 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1315
  • Tommy Points: 151
 
Last week I posted with a topic line, “The Celtics must tank again and again…"

At the time I wrote it I was quite serious.  I had just watched the Celtics get annihilated by the Warriors.  This is a team that spent years losing and ended up with high draft picks and very good players.   I thought the Celtics should do the same in order to get the players they need to win.  One way to do that is to tank.
 
Even before that game I literally wanted the team to lose on purpose in order to get a higher position in this year’s NBA draft.  Basically, my thoughts mirror what I had read in a recent post.  The writer reminded us of state of the Celtics circa mid-1990’s.  These teams played hard only to end up with mid-first round picks and stayed in perpetual purgatory.  On the other hand, in the late 2000’s tanking lead to winning seasons and happiness.  Winning long-term via tanking made sense.

As I watched the games over the weekend I witnessed Celtics winning two games.  Part of me was thinking, this is good and yet another part of myself is screaming; “Stevens, play Babb, Johnson and Anthony!….. I implore you!!!”  Winning surely wasn't satisfying.  I preferred the team to lose.  I’m sure many of us felt the same.  (Not all)
 
Today, I was thinking about the team and tanking.  This was the first time I seriously thought about what it means to tank.  My mind turned to Pete Rose and his gambling problems and how he ended up getting kicked out of baseball because of it.  He wasn't accused of throwing games that I can recall.  It was simply the betting on his team and other teams that brought about his demise.
 
Then, I began to think about actual situations where players lost on purpose, e.g., the Chicago White Sox in the early part of the last century, the point shaving NYC basketball scandal in the early 50’s, local point shaving scandals at BC in the late 70’s and in boxing who knows how many matches have been fixed.
   
Well anyways, what is my point?  I thought to myself, it’s easy for me and many of us to say, out loud or in pixels, “the Celtics should tank for the long-term good of the team”.  But, what about the reality of tanking?  Isn't it basically the same as throwing games? 

The thought of doing such a thing when I played or coached never crossed my mind.  Why now is it okay for a team to tank where I would never dream of doing it personally?

Shouldn’t we expect professional athletes and coaches be held to the same high standards we expect from ourselves.  For some reason, the word “tanking” seems to sanitize everything.  In reality it’s just another way of saying “throwing  games”. 

Even though I have been an avid proponent for tanking, now I feel it’s not the right thing to do.  Will I change my mind again if they keep winning and end up in the same position of the 90’s?  Who knows, I hope not.

What about yourself, if you are proponent of tanking (like I have been) and if you were a player or manager, would you be willing to throw games (tank) in order to get some long-term team benefit? 

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 10:14:21 PM »

Online Timdawgg

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1286
  • Tommy Points: 626
Thanks for the great post! It is exactly how I feel. It feels somewhat dirty to Tank.
MJ made you look slow, Bird made you look stupid." -James Worthy
2025 Fantasy Draft Philadelphia 76ers:
PG: Rajon Rondo '11-'12;  WestBrook; Wall
SG: James Harden '18-'19 Marcus Smart
SF: Andrei Kirilenko '05-'06; Peja Stojakovic
PF: Anthony Davis '17-'18;   Kevin Love, Griffin
C: Amare Stoudemire '04-'05;   Marcus Camby

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 10:23:31 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469
It seems that most of those who are in favor of "tanking" will tell you that players and coaches don't tank.  Rather, management tanks by putting a team on the floor that doesn't have the talent to win. 

My stance all along has been that management can't precisely engineer the team's final win/loss tally in the off-season.  Sometimes teams play above expectations and sometimes they play below. 

Too many people try to pretend they can predict in November with accuracy how a season will turn out.  They can't. 

As much as some like to think that the script has already been written, it hasn't.  That's one of the things that appeals to me most about sports. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 10:39:06 PM »

Offline freshinthehouse

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
  • Tommy Points: 158
If I was player or coach?  Hell no.  I'm not going to do my job poorly just so my employer can get their hands on a coveted new employee.  Players and coaches have careers to worry about.  Why should a player play purposely bad so that the team can draft a player that may replace them?  That's why I think tanking is pretty much a myth at the player and coaching levels in pro sports. 

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 11:22:30 PM »

Online SparzWizard

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18926
  • Tommy Points: 1119
My take- Better than being mediocre for years to come.

Either you suck the most or you run the conference. Don't want to be like the Atlanta Hawks/Milwaukee Bucks of recent past. Make it to playoffs and get bounced in round 1 almost every year.


#FireJoe
#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) 2022 - 2025
I am the Master of Panic.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 11:27:24 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
I want my players to play hard all the time, always trying to win, to never be happy with losses. I want my coaches to play their best players, the guys who earned it in practice and on the court over guys who haven't, and I want my GM to do what's best for the team.

And if doing what's best for the team is assembling a group that can't win if they tried, so be it.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 11:33:09 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Sanctimonious jerks advocate for one position over the other.

I root for wins, and I trust the front office. That's pretty much all I can do as a fan without telling other people how to root for our team.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 11:54:54 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Sanctimonious jerks advocate for one position over the other.

I root for wins, and I trust the front office. That's pretty much all I can do as a fan without telling other people how to root for our team.

I don't think stating that I support what I see as Danny's plan to tank (because to my eyes, that's the best explanation for the current roster) makes me a sanctimonious jerk, and I don't think stating what I think is the value in that plan makes me one either. Saying 'a real fan blah blah blah' makes you a sanctimonious jerk, but it's against forum rules for a reason.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 12:41:42 AM »

Offline Smokeeye123

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2374
  • Tommy Points: 156
Im pro tanking and honestly get furious at wins like last night...i feel dirty though...almost like im on the dark side of the force. I know my philosophy is right but i still feel bad. Hopefully we get lucky and win the lottery so i can root for wins next year because tanking sucks.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 12:51:02 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Sanctimonious jerks advocate for one position over the other.

I root for wins, and I trust the front office. That's pretty much all I can do as a fan without telling other people how to root for our team.

I don't think stating that I support what I see as Danny's plan to tank (because to my eyes, that's the best explanation for the current roster) makes me a sanctimonious jerk, and I don't think stating what I think is the value in that plan makes me one either. Saying 'a real fan blah blah blah' makes you a sanctimonious jerk, but it's against forum rules for a reason.

Wasn't talking about your post, more of the general "I can't believe you guys think XYZ about next season? Don't you know that the only way our team will get better is through ZYX?"
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 01:24:40 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
ends justify the means.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 02:22:03 AM »

Offline freshinthehouse

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
  • Tommy Points: 158
I want my players to play hard all the time, always trying to win, to never be happy with losses. I want my coaches to play their best players, the guys who earned it in practice and on the court over guys who haven't, and I want my GM to do what's best for the team.

And if doing what's best for the team is assembling a group that can't win if they tried, so be it.

Exactly.  I wan't my players and coach to do everything they can to win every game, and I want my GM to do everything he can to build a dynasty.  TP for you good sir.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 11:11:17 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
i'm not a fan of tanking but the nba is set up this way. in order to be great you have to be really bad or...be in LA, Miami, texas, or Arizona.

i'm really not "pro" anything. as a fan I've come to the realization that my team is not going to win it every yr. and I'm ok with that...just ok.

I think a lot of fans are looking for a quick fix to this situation and in 2 - 3 yrs I could see this getting ugly. when I think we'll be very lucky if we even have a guy we could consider a franchise player.

the point is we could have all the lottery picks in the world it's going to time either way. and a lot of losing no matter what we do.

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 11:58:26 AM »

Offline LilRip

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6987
  • Tommy Points: 411
There is little to no incentive for a player to tank, and I doubt any decent NBA player would tank on the court. Front offices, however, are a whole other story. This was a poorly constructed roster to begin with, and regardless of what anti-tankers think, there's no denying that a top 3 pick in the offseason would be more valuable than any player on this roster right now or any 3-game win streak this year.
- LilRip

Re: Would you really tank?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 12:41:58 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
i'm not a fan of tanking but the nba is set up this way. in order to be great you have to be really bad or...be in LA, Miami, texas, or Arizona.


That's just not really true, based on historical trends though.

You have to be really bad in order to get a lot of lottery balls.   That's it.

That has no real correlation with subsequently becoming great.

I also think that most GMs are very aware of this, too.

The fact, as it stands right now, there are only 7 teams playing at a sub-30-win pace (.365 W-L record).

Despite this supposedly 'loaded' draft, that's no different than pretty much any season since the weighted lottery went into place.   Even last year, with such a supposedly weak draft, there were 8 such teams.

Granted, those numbers could change by the end of the season.   But as it stands right now, this season doesn't really look all that unusual in terms of the number of 'bad' teams.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.