Sixers retiring #3 in honor of AI today

[D.o.s.]

Well deserved. Iverson has not gotten the respect that he should have for his NBA career. He was a true superstar who's legacy was put in shadow because Stern and Co. didn't like his image and personality.

I find all this "held back by Stern" stuff ridiculous.  There was plenty of "Stern hates Celtics" stuff when he didn't allow KG, Paul, and Doc to easily go to the Clippers.

We have so much in the way of new advanced statistics nowadays that an inefficient player like Iverson would not be looked at the same today.  It would be common knowledge that he really doesn't help a team nearly as much as a lower scoring/more efficient player.  He would never be allowed to jack up that many shots while not converting a decent percentage, while playing 40 minutes per game and not guarding anyone. 

When I think of Iverson I think of a slightly better version of Brandon Jennings who was given free reign.  And in hindsight he has the benefit of the whole Michael Jordan "larger than life" thing.

Look at the numbers, look at the defense.  He wasn't as good as most of us picture in our minds.

That said, he definitely deserves to have his number retired by the Sixers.  But he's not an alltime great.  And the title of best pound for pound player is just stupid.  He is one of the lightest players ever, so what does that mean?

Bogus. On my way out the door, but suffice it to say that you're missing the point by complaining about his shooting percentages. He's leagues and bounds ahead of someone like Brandon Jennings.

Also, LarBrd, I know you're a big Simmons jockrider--you don't agree with his bit in TBOB about Iverson?

[GreenFaith1819]

Well Done, AI....Well Done.

Now, 1st Ballot HOFer.

And the Legendary Red Auerbach loved the guy:

“Are you kidding? I’d love to have coached that kid. First of all, he’s quick as anyone who ever played. But beyond that, he’s a warrior. I’d have gotten along great with him. The (missing) practice thing would never have been a problem. I would just very quietly tell him, ‘Look, you need to do this because it means something to me and to the other players.’ What you have to do is let a guy know what’s important to you and let him know that if he does right by you, you’re going to do right by him. That’s the thing: my guys always knew I’d take care of them if they played hard for me – while they were playing and after they were done playing.” - Red Auerbach on whether or not Allen Iverson could play for him.

http://celticsbandwagon.blogspot.com/2006/12/red-auerbach-and-allen-iverson.html

[Celtics4ever]

Lots of volume scorers are in the HOF.

[hpantazo]

Well Done, AI....Well Done.

Now, 1st Ballot HOFer.

And the Legendary Red Auerbach loved the guy:

“Are you kidding? I’d love to have coached that kid. First of all, he’s quick as anyone who ever played. But beyond that, he’s a warrior. I’d have gotten along great with him. The (missing) practice thing would never have been a problem. I would just very quietly tell him, ‘Look, you need to do this because it means something to me and to the other players.’ What you have to do is let a guy know what’s important to you and let him know that if he does right by you, you’re going to do right by him. That’s the thing: my guys always knew I’d take care of them if they played hard for me – while they were playing and after they were done playing.” - Red Auerbach on whether or not Allen Iverson could play for him.

http://celticsbandwagon.blogspot.com/2006/12/red-auerbach-and-allen-iverson.html

Iverson was one of the toughest guys to even play the game. A lot of people forget about that. What he did at his size, and the pounding he took regularly, was incredible. If he had ever been fortunate enough to get a decent supporting cast he would have had multiple rings.

[BballTim]

Can not stand him.  Represents everything wrong with NBA from that time.  I understand why they're doing it but seeing him get any positive recognition for his play makes me Ill.

yeah I mean... i really don't think he was a superstar.  It's actually weird to look back at his stats and wonder what the flip was going on back then.  Him and Antoine Walker both.  How was Iverson allowed to shoot 39%... 29% from three... and jack up enough shots to average 29 points per night.  How was that their most efficient offense?  Was that just because he was flashy and entertaining?  He sold tickets so it was ok?  The dude was a complete chucker.  They replaced him with Andre Miller and improved. 

Really bizarre era of basketball.  I can't even fathom a team allowing one player to jack up 28 shots per night while shooting 39%.  It just melts my mind even thinking about it.  This isn't even advanced statistical analysis... this is just like... what the heck??  It's like saying "you know... ricky Rubio is one of the least efficient shooters in the league... but he's super entertaining.  So instead of his normal 8 shots per night, we're going to let him chuck up 30 per night until his PPG is "superstar" levels."

That only could have happened in the post Jordan era.  King James averages 17 attempts per night.  Wrap your mind around this... if King James were chucking it up on Iverson levels, he'd average close to 50 points per game.

Meanwhile, Iverson averaged 6 assists and 4 turnovers.  Just an obscenely overrated player.

  That's not really an accurate picture of AI. I'm not a fan of his, but his MVP and 7 all-nba teams were deserved. He wasn't the most efficient scorer, but he wasn't in the Antoine category. His career TS% is 52%, and the league average is 54%. Lebron's a career 28 ppg scorer. If he shot the ball as much as AI he'd be a career 30 ppg scorer. He has the same career usage rate as AI and a slightly higher TO%.

  He's got the same career TS% as Russel Westbrook only he achieved it without having a player like KD on the court with him to command the attention of the defense. He played parts of 3 seasons with Melo and during his time in Denver his TS% was a respectable 56%.

  He was one of the more talented scorers in the history of the league but did too much of his scoring against double or triple teams. That's his main downfall. He was never on the court with good scorers so he had to carry the offense by himself. He's probably not blameless in that in that he'd (IMO) have had trouble coexisting with another top scorer when he was in his prime.

  It's also worth pointing out that he played a ton of minutes. That skews his numbers. If you look at fga/game over the last 20 years AI has 5 of the 6 highest seasons. If you look at players with 17 or more fga/game over that time, he has 5 of the top 33 seasons.

[greg683x]

Well Done, AI....Well Done.

Now, 1st Ballot HOFer.

And the Legendary Red Auerbach loved the guy:

“Are you kidding? I’d love to have coached that kid. First of all, he’s quick as anyone who ever played. But beyond that, he’s a warrior. I’d have gotten along great with him. The (missing) practice thing would never have been a problem. I would just very quietly tell him, ‘Look, you need to do this because it means something to me and to the other players.’ What you have to do is let a guy know what’s important to you and let him know that if he does right by you, you’re going to do right by him. That’s the thing: my guys always knew I’d take care of them if they played hard for me – while they were playing and after they were done playing.” - Red Auerbach on whether or not Allen Iverson could play for him.

http://celticsbandwagon.blogspot.com/2006/12/red-auerbach-and-allen-iverson.html

with all due respect to Red, Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowe are regarded as the most selfish celtics of all time, only looking out for themselves, and representing everything celtic pride isnt about.

If it's as simple as saying into someones ear, 'hey, this is important to me, and to your teammates.'  How come those two didnt magically turn the corner and start having great work ethics and team attitudes.

It's really easy to say, hey i love that guy, he'd be great on our team, when you get to watch all the good things he does and dont have to put up with any of the bad things behind closed doors.  Do you really think someone never tried to tell Iverson he needs to be at practice not necessarily bc he needs, but bc the team needs it, the young guys need to see how hard the captain works??

[Moranis]

Iverson scored 1.22 points per field goal attempt.  A bit light from the all time great wing scorers, but not totally out of whack either.  Jordan for example was 1.31 for his career.  Kobe is at 1.30.  In the pre-3 era, the Logo was 1.32 and Pistol Pete was 1.14.  So yeah Iverson was a bit lower, but he also wasn't playing with other all timers for the vast majority of his career like the other guys. 

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

A great raw talent, but he was a point guard who averaged only 6 assists per game, shot horribly most of the time, and his career assist-to-turnover ratio was less than 2 to 1. Maybe he would've done well under Red, but that's just speculation; reality is that he was very undisciplined, and not what I'd call a team player.

He's certainly a notable player in Sixers history, and if that's the main criterion for getting your number retired, then he's earned it. My honest reaction, though (and maybe this is because I'm spoiled as a Cs fan), is "meh." Even more so when someone brings up the question of him being a HOFer.

[GreenFaith1819]

To Greg683x -

I see that you have an issue with the "Practice" thing with AI...I did, too.

I also see how you mentioned Rowe and Hicks as being non-desirable Celtics and selfish players. I've heard/read vague things about those two here on the Blog over the years.

And you are correct - it "is" one thing to want a player and players on your team then having to deal with them behind closed doors.

I guess that none of us will ever see AI in Green or see what would've turned out from that, huh? Some of us are indeed glad for that.

AI was a polarizing figure during his time in the NBA...especially towards the end of his career. He reportedly wouldn't come off the bench, etc, etc, etc...

Sounds a bit like that "WARRIOR" that Red mentioned....OR - some one call that being headstrong and not doing what's best for the team.

Lol...who knows? Especially at this point?

I trust that AI would've fit in in Green. The Green has a way of making players fit.

I don't think AI would've been any different.

All I know is that AI's Jersey will go up in the PHI rafters along with the other Sixer AND NBA Greats, and within Five short years some of us will be celebrating his Probable 1st Ballot HOF status.

And - some of us will be remembering the "Practice" thing....him not fitting in with the various teams he went to towards the end of his NBA career.

For me, I'll remember the Good Times with AI. Lord knows if I focused on the Lean Years in BOS I would've jumped over the side of the Navy ships I was on during that period. 

[sunnyd656]

Can not stand him.  Represents everything wrong with NBA from that time.  I understand why they're doing it but seeing him get any positive recognition for his play makes me Ill.

yeah I mean... i really don't think he was a superstar.  It's actually weird to look back at his stats and wonder what the flip was going on back then.  Him and Antoine Walker both.  How was Iverson allowed to shoot 39%... 29% from three... and jack up enough shots to average 29 points per night.  How was that their most efficient offense?  Was that just because he was flashy and entertaining?  He sold tickets so it was ok?  The dude was a complete chucker.  They replaced him with Andre Miller and improved. 

Really bizarre era of basketball.  I can't even fathom a team allowing one player to jack up 28 shots per night while shooting 39%.  It just melts my mind even thinking about it.  This isn't even advanced statistical analysis... this is just like... what the heck??  It's like saying "you know... ricky Rubio is one of the least efficient shooters in the league... but he's super entertaining.  So instead of his normal 8 shots per night, we're going to let him chuck up 30 per night until his PPG is "superstar" levels."

That only could have happened in the post Jordan era.  King James averages 17 attempts per night.  Wrap your mind around this... if King James were chucking it up on Iverson levels, he'd average close to 50 points per game.

Meanwhile, Iverson averaged 6 assists and 4 turnovers.  Just an obscenely overrated player.

  That's not really an accurate picture of AI. I'm not a fan of his, but his MVP and 7 all-nba teams were deserved. He wasn't the most efficient scorer, but he wasn't in the Antoine category. His career TS% is 52%, and the league average is 54%. Lebron's a career 28 ppg scorer. If he shot the ball as much as AI he'd be a career 30 ppg scorer. He has the same career usage rate as AI and a slightly higher TO%.

  He's got the same career TS% as Russel Westbrook only he achieved it without having a player like KD on the court with him to command the attention of the defense. He played parts of 3 seasons with Melo and during his time in Denver his TS% was a respectable 56%.

  He was one of the more talented scorers in the history of the league but did too much of his scoring against double or triple teams. That's his main downfall. He was never on the court with good scorers so he had to carry the offense by himself. He's probably not blameless in that in that he'd (IMO) have had trouble coexisting with another top scorer when he was in his prime.

  It's also worth pointing out that he played a ton of minutes. That skews his numbers. If you look at fga/game over the last 20 years AI has 5 of the 6 highest seasons. If you look at players with 17 or more fga/game over that time, he has 5 of the top 33 seasons.

Stop. We here at Celticsblog have no time for facts and statistics. We rely on "Eye tests" and opinions.

[freshinthehouse]

I have never seen a crossover as smooth or confusing as Iverson's. He was a lot of fun to watch. I imagine he'll make the Hall of Fame, regardless of how polarizing he is.

I remember it was either 02 or 03 playoffs that we played Philly in the first round.  That team was on the downswing, but AI was still a force.  Dude was so quick, he could get an open look pretty much whenever he wanted it.

[greg683x]

To Greg683x -

I see that you have an issue with the "Practice" thing with AI...I did, too.

I also see how you mentioned Rowe and Hicks as being non-desirable Celtics and selfish players. I've heard/read vague things about those two here on the Blog over the years.

And you are correct - it "is" one thing to want a player and players on your team then having to deal with them behind closed doors.

I guess that none of us will ever see AI in Green or see what would've turned out from that, huh? Some of us are indeed glad for that.

AI was a polarizing figure during his time in the NBA...especially towards the end of his career. He reportedly wouldn't come off the bench, etc, etc, etc...

Sounds a bit like that "WARRIOR" that Red mentioned....OR - some one call that being headstrong and not doing what's best for the team.

Lol...who knows? Especially at this point?

I trust that AI would've fit in in Green. The Green has a way of making players fit.

I don't think AI would've been any different.

All I know is that AI's Jersey will go up in the PHI rafters along with the other Sixer AND NBA Greats, and within Five short years some of us will be celebrating his Probable 1st Ballot HOF status.

And - some of us will be remembering the "Practice" thing....him not fitting in with the various teams he went to towards the end of his NBA career.

For me, I'll remember the Good Times with AI. Lord knows if I focused on the Lean Years in BOS I would've jumped over the side of the Navy ships I was on during that period. 

to each their own.

I cannot even begin to say how much I disagree with the thought that Iversons refusal to come off the bench had to do with this so called warrior instinct.  Richard Hamilton went to the bench without fuss because Iverson wouldnt.  Does that mean Hamilton doesnt have a killer instinct??  or a warrior mentality??  Give me a break.  Plenty of NBA superstars have come off the bench to help their teams win, Iverson just couldnt do it bc he cant get out of the way of his own ego.

I brought up Rowe and Hicks specifically in regards to that quote from Red not bc of what the blog thought of him, but because Red himself brought up Rowe and Wicks in his biography citing that they were selfish, were lazy in practice, and had no work ethic.  Which is why it makes the point about how you can clamor for all the positives someones brings when you dont have to deal with negatives.  It's kinda like wanting to get involved with a really hot girl even though she has a rep for treating guys like crap.  "Well, I could change her, she hasnt dated me yet."


The way he carries himself and the way he played the game will always be debated, and everyones entitled to their own opinion.  From your post I gathered you respected my opinion even though you disagree with it on some levels, I'll gladly respect yours.  The guys done plenty of good things in league, I just think he was a very flawed person and player.  He might have done great things for us in green, but we'll never know......even though I'm of the opinion we had a somewhat watered down version of him here playing PF for about a decade.

[BballTim]

Well deserved. Iverson has not gotten the respect that he should have for his NBA career. He was a true superstar who's legacy was put in shadow because Stern and Co. didn't like his image and personality.

I find all this "held back by Stern" stuff ridiculous.  There was plenty of "Stern hates Celtics" stuff when he didn't allow KG, Paul, and Doc to easily go to the Clippers.

We have so much in the way of new advanced statistics nowadays that an inefficient player like Iverson would not be looked at the same today.  It would be common knowledge that he really doesn't help a team nearly as much as a lower scoring/more efficient player.  He would never be allowed to jack up that many shots while not converting a decent percentage, while playing 40 minutes per game and not guarding anyone. 

When I think of Iverson I think of a slightly better version of Brandon Jennings who was given free reign.  And in hindsight he has the benefit of the whole Michael Jordan "larger than life" thing.

  If the advanced stats tell you that Iverson was a slightly better version of Brandon Jennings then this is a good example of why you can't rely solely on stats to compare players. It's a fairly absurd comparison.

[Celtics4ever]

They are in full blown tank mode, folks, all this was a gimmick to placate upset fans. 

GM:  Let's see , we just had a fire sale and cut people and are trying to lose.   What could we do to get some heat off us, the fans are turning on us.

TEAM PRESIDENT :   Let's retire a beloved player's jersey!   

GM:Yeah that is the ticket and sell some to boot...

[SHAQATTACK]

I suppose this guy deserves to be included .....mainly because of his basketball skill .and yes what he did for the  team on the court. I hated his play in Georgetown too.

On the other hand I think it is a slap in the face of the rest of the fellows who had their numbers retired.   Guy s like Dr J..... Ambassador to the NBA

As for everything else about him......it is a shame to the others to have his rotten jersey up there with those guys IMO

He was Mostly a getto punk ...they were true basketball legends and did a lot for basketball off the court and acted like gentlemen .

Hope he is never in HOF