Poll about Rondo - Celtics Best Player 2011-2012?

[bobbyv]

All of our success during our micro-dynasty came from our defense. 

The team fell apart unless KG was doing his thing.  Even in 2009 when Ray, Paul and Rondo were close to their peak, those three all-star level players BARELY were able to knock off a weaksauce Chicago team with Glen Davis filling the KG role.

By 2011-12, everyone had slipped a little.  Rondo was still 2009 Rondo.  But our team still had their "success" (if you want to call beating the Hawks and 76ers "success") from their defense.   You remove KG from the equation, it all falls apart. You remove Pierce from the equation, they'd have trouble scoring.  You remove Rondo from the equation, the team would still manage to score in different ways and the defense would still remain effective.

The biggest component was Kevin Garnett.  He went vintage in the 2012 playoffs.  Rondo got his stats, but that team would have been toast without KG's resurgence.  And it's stuff like that why Brooklyn currently had the 6th seed, they allow 7 less points with KG on the floor... and you can't bet against the Nets in the playoffs this year.   Meanwhile Boston is 2-11 with Rondo running the show... 4th worst record in the league.  Only victories coming against Orlando and Philly.  We're dreadful without someone anchoring our defense. 

KG was the "best player".  If you asked "who put up the most stats" (without adjusted minutes), I'd answer Rondo.

I very much disagree. See: 2013 Playoff series vs New York Knicks. And our best player that year was Rondo, especially in the playoffs. Although KG had a lot to do with it too (revitalizing the defense with Bradley). There's no way we get to 7 games with Miami without Rondo, that's easily evident to anyone who watched the series.

[BballTim]

Best player?  Yes. Especially in those playoffs.

Most valuable to that team? No (KG was)

  Agreed.

[BballTim]

As said, our most "Valuable" player was probably KG just because of the defense intensity everyone seemed to get.

As far as our "best" player - was easily and far away Rondo. I'd even go as far as putting him as the best player of the whole Playoffs. He was literally unstoppable.

Or in other words, Garnett was really the best player, but Rondo filled up the stat sheet.

  No, our backup bigs were terrible, especially after Wilcox left. In the playoffs our only players over 6'8 were KG, an injured rookie (Steimsma) and Ryan Hollins. KG was more important in 2012 than he was in 2008 or 2009. Clearly not a better player.

[bello_man09]

what a hustle by Rondo!!

[BballTim]

All of our success during our micro-dynasty came from our defense. 

  The defense was important but it wasn't enough. Case in point, our defense in the 2013 playoffs was better statistically than it was in 2012. The difference in the offense in those two years was the difference between getting to the ecf and narrowly avoiding a first round sweep.

  In 2013 we had (aside from Rondo) a relatively healthy team and a weak defensive opponent yet we set records for futility on offense. In 2012 we had no Green, Ray hobbling around on gimpy ankles, AB having his shoulders pop out every other game, PP with a MCL problem, Pietrus recovering from a head/neck injury and no backup bigs capable of scoring more than a couple of points a game. We played all of our games against top defensive teams. The only reason our offense wasn't worse than it was in 2013 was Rondo, who scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points than anyone else in the playoffs.

[LarBrd33]

All of our success during our micro-dynasty came from our defense. 

The team fell apart unless KG was doing his thing.  Even in 2009 when Ray, Paul and Rondo were close to their peak, those three all-star level players BARELY were able to knock off a weaksauce Chicago team with Glen Davis filling the KG role.

By 2011-12, everyone had slipped a little.  Rondo was still 2009 Rondo.  But our team still had their "success" (if you want to call beating the Hawks and 76ers "success") from their defense.   You remove KG from the equation, it all falls apart. You remove Pierce from the equation, they'd have trouble scoring.  You remove Rondo from the equation, the team would still manage to score in different ways and the defense would still remain effective.

The biggest component was Kevin Garnett.  He went vintage in the 2012 playoffs.  Rondo got his stats, but that team would have been toast without KG's resurgence.  And it's stuff like that why Brooklyn currently had the 6th seed, they allow 7 less points with KG on the floor... and you can't bet against the Nets in the playoffs this year.   Meanwhile Boston is 2-11 with Rondo running the show... 4th worst record in the league.  Only victories coming against Orlando and Philly.  We're dreadful without someone anchoring our defense. 

KG was the "best player".  If you asked "who put up the most stats" (without adjusted minutes), I'd answer Rondo.

I very much disagree. See: 2013 Playoff series vs New York Knicks. And our best player that year was Rondo, especially in the playoffs. Although KG had a lot to do with it too (revitalizing the defense with Bradley). There's no way we get to 7 games with Miami without Rondo, that's easily evident to anyone who watched the series.

2013 playoffs had as much to do with Ray Allen being gone as it did Rondo.  We were a below .500 team with a healthy Rondo... chances are we wouldn't have even made the playoffs had he not got injured.  I don't get why people insist that we would have upset a 50+ win Knicks team.  It wasn't in the cards.  We were outmatched.  Rondo wouldn't have moved the needle.

[LarBrd33]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

part of the reason we remember that playoff run so fondly is because Rondo upped his minutes a ridiculous 43 per game.  It inflated his stats, but on a per-minute basis he was basically the same player.  Also it helps when you're being defended by sub-par talent. It skews the stats a bit when you're going against Mario Chalmers and Miami is focusing on stopping everyone other than you.

Rondo, 2011-2012, per-36 numbers:

Regular season (36.9 mpg)
pts/36:  11.9
as/36:   11.4 (AST% 52.5%)
trb/36:    4.7
stl/36:    1.7
tov/36:   3.6

Playoffs (42.6 mpg)
pts/36:  14.6
as/36:   10.1  (AST% 54.0%)
trb/36:    5.7
stl/36:    2.0
tov/36:   3.2

Hmm... nope. 

'
Hmmm... yup.  Essentially the same player.  Law of averages would have worked that out.  Small sample size vs mediocre teams (Atlanta and Philly) and a handful of games against a Miami team that was focusing on defending everyone else... and for that you have 1 less assist and 1 more basket to show for your efforts. 

[bobbyv]

All of our success during our micro-dynasty came from our defense. 

The team fell apart unless KG was doing his thing.  Even in 2009 when Ray, Paul and Rondo were close to their peak, those three all-star level players BARELY were able to knock off a weaksauce Chicago team with Glen Davis filling the KG role.

By 2011-12, everyone had slipped a little.  Rondo was still 2009 Rondo.  But our team still had their "success" (if you want to call beating the Hawks and 76ers "success") from their defense.   You remove KG from the equation, it all falls apart. You remove Pierce from the equation, they'd have trouble scoring.  You remove Rondo from the equation, the team would still manage to score in different ways and the defense would still remain effective.

The biggest component was Kevin Garnett.  He went vintage in the 2012 playoffs.  Rondo got his stats, but that team would have been toast without KG's resurgence.  And it's stuff like that why Brooklyn currently had the 6th seed, they allow 7 less points with KG on the floor... and you can't bet against the Nets in the playoffs this year.   Meanwhile Boston is 2-11 with Rondo running the show... 4th worst record in the league.  Only victories coming against Orlando and Philly.  We're dreadful without someone anchoring our defense. 

KG was the "best player".  If you asked "who put up the most stats" (without adjusted minutes), I'd answer Rondo.

I very much disagree. See: 2013 Playoff series vs New York Knicks. And our best player that year was Rondo, especially in the playoffs. Although KG had a lot to do with it too (revitalizing the defense with Bradley). There's no way we get to 7 games with Miami without Rondo, that's easily evident to anyone who watched the series.

2013 playoffs had as much to do with Ray Allen being gone as it did Rondo.  We were a below .500 team with a healthy Rondo... chances are we wouldn't have even made the playoffs had he not got injured.  I don't get why people insist that we would have upset a 50+ win Knicks team.  It wasn't in the cards.  We were outmatched.  Rondo wouldn't have moved the needle.

Ray Allen would not have changed anything. We couldn't even run an offense for crying out loud. I don't know about beating the Knicks, but we would have done much better with an actual point guard.

[BballTim]

All of our success during our micro-dynasty came from our defense. 

The team fell apart unless KG was doing his thing.  Even in 2009 when Ray, Paul and Rondo were close to their peak, those three all-star level players BARELY were able to knock off a weaksauce Chicago team with Glen Davis filling the KG role.

By 2011-12, everyone had slipped a little.  Rondo was still 2009 Rondo.  But our team still had their "success" (if you want to call beating the Hawks and 76ers "success") from their defense.   You remove KG from the equation, it all falls apart. You remove Pierce from the equation, they'd have trouble scoring.  You remove Rondo from the equation, the team would still manage to score in different ways and the defense would still remain effective.

The biggest component was Kevin Garnett.  He went vintage in the 2012 playoffs.  Rondo got his stats, but that team would have been toast without KG's resurgence.  And it's stuff like that why Brooklyn currently had the 6th seed, they allow 7 less points with KG on the floor... and you can't bet against the Nets in the playoffs this year.   Meanwhile Boston is 2-11 with Rondo running the show... 4th worst record in the league.  Only victories coming against Orlando and Philly.  We're dreadful without someone anchoring our defense. 

KG was the "best player".  If you asked "who put up the most stats" (without adjusted minutes), I'd answer Rondo.

I very much disagree. See: 2013 Playoff series vs New York Knicks. And our best player that year was Rondo, especially in the playoffs. Although KG had a lot to do with it too (revitalizing the defense with Bradley). There's no way we get to 7 games with Miami without Rondo, that's easily evident to anyone who watched the series.

2013 playoffs had as much to do with Ray Allen being gone as it did Rondo.  We were a below .500 team with a healthy Rondo... chances are we wouldn't have even made the playoffs had he not got injured.  I don't get why people insist that we would have upset a 50+ win Knicks team.  It wasn't in the cards.  We were outmatched.  Rondo wouldn't have moved the needle.

  Hilarious. Ray Allen. Wow.

[BballTim]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

part of the reason we remember that playoff run so fondly is because Rondo upped his minutes a ridiculous 43 per game.  It inflated his stats, but on a per-minute basis he was basically the same player.  Also it helps when you're being defended by sub-par talent. It skews the stats a bit when you're going against Mario Chalmers and Miami is focusing on stopping everyone other than you.

Rondo, 2011-2012, per-36 numbers:

Regular season (36.9 mpg)
pts/36:  11.9
as/36:   11.4 (AST% 52.5%)
trb/36:    4.7
stl/36:    1.7
tov/36:   3.6

Playoffs (42.6 mpg)
pts/36:  14.6
as/36:   10.1  (AST% 54.0%)
trb/36:    5.7
stl/36:    2.0
tov/36:   3.2

Hmm... nope. 

'
Hmmm... yup.  Essentially the same player.  Law of averages would have worked that out.  Small sample size vs mediocre teams (Atlanta and Philly) and a handful of games against a Miami team that was focusing on defending everyone else... and for that you have 1 less assist and 1 more basket to show for your efforts.

  When you say mediocre teams what you actually mean was "top defenses". And if you think the Heat weren't focused on stopping defending everyone but Rondo you weren't watching the series.

[Celtics18]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

part of the reason we remember that playoff run so fondly is because Rondo upped his minutes a ridiculous 43 per game.  It inflated his stats, but on a per-minute basis he was basically the same player.  Also it helps when you're being defended by sub-par talent. It skews the stats a bit when you're going against Mario Chalmers and Miami is focusing on stopping everyone other than you.

Rondo, 2011-2012, per-36 numbers:

Regular season (36.9 mpg)
pts/36:  11.9
as/36:   11.4 (AST% 52.5%)
trb/36:    4.7
stl/36:    1.7
tov/36:   3.6

Playoffs (42.6 mpg)
pts/36:  14.6
as/36:   10.1  (AST% 54.0%)
trb/36:    5.7
stl/36:    2.0
tov/36:   3.2

Hmm... nope. 

'
Hmmm... yup.  Essentially the same player.  Law of averages would have worked that out.  Small sample size vs mediocre teams (Atlanta and Philly) and a handful of games against a Miami team that was focusing on defending everyone else... and for that you have 1 less assist and 1 more basket to show for your efforts.

“Trying to step back and be objective about it after a sensational performance by a great player. You have to take a step back, you have to watch the film a couple times and try to look at it objectively. It’s a dangerous thing.

“He’s most dangerous when he’s getting into the paint, getting to the rim, and obviously getting other people involved. But you also don’t want to just give him free-throw-line warmup jump shots.

“So it’s a balance we’re going to have to figure out. I don’t have the answer for that right now.’’

Though Spoelstra put LeBron James and Dwyane Wade on Rondo at times in Game 2, more of that doesn’t appear to be in the works. Spoelstra and the Heat still have to worry about Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen.

“I think he deserves the respect of multiple things,’’ said Spoelstra. “He’s that smart, he’ll figure it out. If it’s the same guys in coverage, he’ll figure it out.

“They also have a handful of other Hall of Famers that we have to deal with as well, and LeBron and Dwyane have to defend those guys.’’

So Spoelstra was back to the video, trying to unlock the secret to defending a player who can confound opponents with multiple attacking styles. In Game 3, Rondo could just as easily go back to dishing the ball and his jump shot might vanish.

As Wade said after Game 2, “We tried to keep mixing it up on him. I thought we did a good job making adjustments.’’

And still Rondo scored 44 points.

“He was sensational,’’ said Spoelstra, who has used different adjectives in every press conference to describe Rondo. “Some things we were able to do that we like that didn’t necessarily slow him down.

“But he’s that dynamic of a player, he’s that gifted, that it’s going to require the respect of multiple defenders and multiple coverages, and we were doing that throughout the game. He was making terrific reads.’’

- See more at: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/06/01/heat_coach_erik_spoelstra_doesnt_know_what_to_do_with_rajon_rondo/#sthash.hDDGffLH.dpuf

[D.o.s.]

said Spoelstra, who has used different adjectives in every press conference to describe Rondo.

Lol. It's like the players and teams get sick of answering the same questions every time.

[celtsfan44]

KG was the best player on the 2011-12 team and MVP.   Pierce was the second best regular season player.  Rondo was the second best post season player behind KG that year.  Defensive attention mostly focused on Big 3 and Rondo made the Heat pay at times for doing do.

2011-12 was a fluke.  Very easy path to EC Finals and then no Bosh in EC Finals. 

Celtics stopped contending without relying upon other teams suffering important injuries and having a chance to be elite once Perkins didn't return the same and Shaq got injured.

2013 Celtics were finished with or without Ray Allen even if everyone had stayed healthy.  Ray left in part since he knew the team was done.  And he was right.

Time to start building the next contender.

[BASS_THUMPER]

Doc Rivers

I mean that

*sippin*

[mmmmm]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

part of the reason we remember that playoff run so fondly is because Rondo upped his minutes a ridiculous 43 per game.  It inflated his stats, but on a per-minute basis he was basically the same player.  Also it helps when you're being defended by sub-par talent. It skews the stats a bit when you're going against Mario Chalmers and Miami is focusing on stopping everyone other than you.

Rondo, 2011-2012, per-36 numbers:

Regular season (36.9 mpg)
pts/36:  11.9
as/36:   11.4 (AST% 52.5%)
trb/36:    4.7
stl/36:    1.7
tov/36:   3.6

Playoffs (42.6 mpg)
pts/36:  14.6
as/36:   10.1  (AST% 54.0%)
trb/36:    5.7
stl/36:    2.0
tov/36:   3.2

Hmm... nope. 

'
Hmmm... yup.  Essentially the same player.  Law of averages would have worked that out.  Small sample size vs mediocre teams (Atlanta and Philly) and a handful of games against a Miami team that was focusing on defending everyone else... and for that you have 1 less assist and 1 more basket to show for your efforts.

Nope.

That's not really how to look at this.   A corvette is not essentially the same as a commuter sedan even though the broad spectrum of attributes of all sedans covers the attributes of the corvette.   Because an actual instance of a commuter sedan does not have all the attributes of a corvette.

There are certainly games within the regular season sample where Rondo scored more points.  And some in which he grabbed more rebounds.  And some in which he grabbed a few more steals.   But what makes that playoff Rondo is the difference in so many different attributes.

The only real constant across the two is the AST% - indicating no drop-off in share of responsibility of facilitating others on the floor.   Yet he increased his own point-per-minute scoring rate by 23%, his rebounding rate by 21%, his steal's rate by 18% while dropping his TOV rate by 11%.

It doesn't matter that it's a relatively small sample.  Within that sample, that's a 'different player' than the one measured by the regular season sample.