Can we just appreciate Rondo?

[Eddie20]

To me, he is a once-in-lifetime player, even with his supposed warts.

Maybe someone with a very short life expectancy

[BballTim]

... technically, you don't even need a PG to win a championship.

But yeah.  Best case scenario someone will step up to the plate on the 20th and Ainge will find a reason to keep Rondo and still accomplish his goals.

  It's absolutely true you don't need a point guard to win a title. All we need to do is get a MJ or LeBron or Kobe instead. No problem.

Totally agree.

  Clearly you want to tank, but where are we going to get a MJ or LeBron?

[cb8883]

PGs I would absolutly want over Rondo

CP3
Lillard
Westbrook
Rose (healthy)
Wall (Finally living up to his potential)
MCW (will be a beast the next few years)
Parker
Curry
Irving

I view Rondo and D-Will the same. 2 very overrated PGs that have or will have max contracts given to them when they aren't max level players.

Being around the big 3 made him a lot better than what his talent level is. Danny would be wise to sell high. Unless you surround him with all stars we've seen the best of Rondo. Do not want to be the organization killed by his max contract. Look what the big 3 did for Perkins. Got him paid well over market value. Same thing with Rondo on his next deal. He's going to get a max deal on his reputation alone and I hope the Lakers are dumb enough to pay him.

I'm just gonna take everything you post from now on with a gigantic grain of salt since that post of yours claiming we should've traded Paul Pierce (and banner 17) to tank for Drose.

With that said, the only PGs I'd take over Rondo are CP3 and Tony Parker. A healthy Rose, maybe. The way a lot of people harp on Ro do you can very much pick apart any other PGs game. People who complain about Rondo's effort, attitude and/or maturity and then clamor for Irving aren't really watching much of the Cavs are they?

The grass is always greener...

I still stand by what I said before. I said if it was me I would have stayed the course and tanked hard for Rose. Such an amazing talent. That being said you can't get mad at winning a title. Who knows what Pierce would have brought back as well. You never know. That being said aside from maybe MCW (young cost controlled) how you can even debate anyone on this list. They're either future hall of famers, well on the way, or impact young players under years of control. If I wanted to really cause a stir I'd put Rubio on that list. The truth is though he impressed me a ton last year this year not so much. I like Rondo but he isn't much of a star without the Big 3.

I do like Rondo but he's very overrated in Celtics nation.

[Roy H.]

I do like Rondo but he's very overrated in Celtics nation.

He's simultaneously very overrated and very underrated by vocal parts of the fan base, in my opinion.

[BballTim]

PGs I would absolutly want over Rondo

CP3
Lillard
Westbrook
Rose (healthy)
Wall (Finally living up to his potential)
MCW (will be a beast the next few years)
Parker
Curry
Irving

I view Rondo and D-Will the same. 2 very overrated PGs that have or will have max contracts given to them when they aren't max level players.

Being around the big 3 made him a lot better than what his talent level is. Danny would be wise to sell high. Unless you surround him with all stars we've seen the best of Rondo. Do not want to be the organization killed by his max contract. Look what the big 3 did for Perkins. Got him paid well over market value. Same thing with Rondo on his next deal. He's going to get a max deal on his reputation alone and I hope the Lakers are dumb enough to pay him.

I'm just gonna take everything you post from now on with a gigantic grain of salt since that post of yours claiming we should've traded Paul Pierce (and banner 17) to tank for Drose.

With that said, the only PGs I'd take over Rondo are CP3 and Tony Parker. A healthy Rose, maybe. The way a lot of people harp on Ro do you can very much pick apart any other PGs game. People who complain about Rondo's effort, attitude and/or maturity and then clamor for Irving aren't really watching much of the Cavs are they?

The grass is always greener...

I still stand by what I said before. I said if it was me I would have stayed the course and tanked hard for Rose. Such an amazing talent. That being said you can't get mad at winning a title. Who knows what Pierce would have brought back as well. You never know. That being said aside from maybe MCW (young cost controlled) how you can even debate anyone on this list. They're either future hall of famers, well on the way, or impact young players under years of control. If I wanted to really cause a stir I'd put Rubio on that list. The truth is though he impressed me a ton last year this year not so much. I like Rondo but he isn't much of a star without the Big 3.

I do like Rondo but he's very overrated in Celtics nation.

  When you say Rondo isn't much of a star without the big three you don't have any evidence to support that, in fact it's easy to point out that Rondo's been seen as a better player as the big three declined, not worse. The last couple of years they were fringe all-stars, Rondo's been on or almost on all-nba teams. You need to update your 08-09 scouting report.

[GreenFaith1819]

To me, he is a once-in-lifetime player, even with his supposed warts.

Maybe someone with a very short life expectancy

LOL!

Good one - I'll give u that.

But I stand by my words.

Kobe seems to like him:

"You don't want Rondo? Send him my way," Bryant told MacMullan. "I love everything about him. Everything. I love his attitude, I love his chippiness, his edge, his intellect, his know-it-allness. All of it. That's what makes championship players.

"What guard have you seen at his size that will get you 18 assists, 17 boards and 20 points all in one game? That's unheard of. I love that kid. I always make a point of talking to him during All-Star [Weekend]. He's one of my favorites."

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2013/02/kobe_bryant_and_rajon_rondo_a.html

There have always been fans here clamoring for Rajon's departure....focusing on his warts, whatever.

I even saw Trade Threads on here for Rajon while he was busy taking apart Lebron and CLE during our miraculous series with them in 09-10.

Rajon Rondo "Made" LeBron James "Have" to account for him.

Oh how soon we forget.

We have a special player in Rajon. I don't think he's always been appreciated here.

[Kc2135]

Here are some guys that i have hear mentioned that we would want over Rondo this are cold hard facts, Parker is better, but at this point I take Rondo: The Green is the stats Rondo wins:

[AidaCelt]

Honestly, what is the point of these top 5 lists?

I think the critical questions are (a) whether Rondo's good enough to be a PG on a championship team, and (b) what kinds of players he needs around him.

We already have our answer on (a). In fact, if Rondo returns to pre-injury form he's better than he was when he won a ring.

(B) is a tougher question, but we already have part of the answer. Rondo needs a couple of scorers and would be well served by having some 3 point shooters on the floor. He fits well in a system that emphasizes defense and half-court execution. (He might fit in other systems too but we have evidence on this point). If he is surrounded by two All-Stars and some quality role players in a good system, that's a contending team - again, we know this because we've seen it happen.

The "top 5 list" issue is irrelevant because we care about building a championship team, and we will likely never be doing it with one of the players on those lists above - unless you think we might trade Rondo for Irving, for example - in which case the questions I asked become the relevant ones again, but with Irving. It's not like replacing the "6th best" PG with the "3rd best" necessarily addresses the fundamental "can we win a ring?" question.

For example, a "better" player on some list might be easier or harder to surround with the right complementary pieces, given available talent and its price in the market. Again, these lists don't really tell us what we want to know.

Whether we should trade Rondo for [insert players/picks X] in order to get ring 18 is an interesting question and maybe the most important one Danny faces right now, but again, I don't see it as having anything to do with whether Rondo's 3rd, 5th or 7th on some list right now.

TP for you sir... but don't be going around talking too much common sense on these boards. Without all these lists, it could get quite boring quickly.

[PhoSita]

Here are some guys that i have hear mentioned that we would want over Rondo this are cold hard facts, Parker is better, but at this point I take Rondo: The Green is the stats Rondo wins:

Too bad scoring and floor spacing are pretty important parts of the job of a point guard in today's league.

[PhoSita]

I think the critical questions are (a) whether Rondo's good enough to be a PG on a championship team, and (b) what kinds of players he needs around him.

I'm not sure why a) is a "critical question."  Is Rondo good enough to be the point guard on a championship team?  Yes.  Other point guards who were good enough: Derek Fisher, Mario Chalmers, Avery Johnson, Antonio Daniels, Steve Kerr . . . etc.

It's fairly obvious that simply being good enough to be a starter on a championship team doesn't mean much.  That's a relatively low bar. 

What does mean a lot, however, is being good enough to be the focal point, or at least a core piece, of a title contender.  That gets to your second question.  What kind of teammates does Rondo need to have in order for his team to be a title contender?

Personally, I think there are probably a number of different ways that you can build a team around Rondo.  It doesn't have to emulate the Big 3 setup, and it doesn't have to be a bunch of young athletes who can run. 

I do think you'd need to give Rondo at least two really high level scoring options who can command extra attention from the opposing defense.  I'd say also that the supporting cast for Rondo's team needs to feature a number of floor spacers to give him plenty of room to operate.  Danny has done a pretty good job of assembling the right kind of players for the supporting cast, so far.  But the two elite scoring options are still missing (with all respect to Jared Sullinger), and those are the hardest to acquire.



The most important thing is that I think you need at least one player who is significantly better than Rondo (i.e. a top 10 talent) and another who is on a similar level (i.e. in the conversation for top 5 at his position).

After the latter paragraph is where BBallTim will come in and mention that Rondo has been the best player in playoff series that featured LeBron James and Derrick Rose, and the best player in individual games that featured plenty of other really talented players.  That's true.  I think it's indisputable that, at least prior to the knee injury, Rondo was capable of taking over a playoff game, or even a playoff series. 

I don't think you can expect him to carry your team to a high playoff seed and win you multiple playoff series, though.  He's a really nice player, but he's not that kind of player.



What does all of this mean, if you accept it, for the Trade Rondo / Don't Trade Rondo debate?  I think the answer depends in part on your rebuild philosophy.  Is it acceptable to put together a group that can compete for a middle seed and perhaps win a playoff series while lying in wait for an opportunity to add a piece to vault the team to the next level?  Or is it important to be more patient and assemble a young talent base with a higher potential ceiling?

I don't think it often makes much sense to sell low on a player, least of all a player with Rondo's resume.  That said, Rondo is a year and change away from entering free agency, and he's not that far off from his 30th birthday. 

It's fair to wonder if Danny can put this team in a position to be more than just a decent playoff squad in just a couple of years.  A 2-3 year rebuild is not unheard of, but it typically takes teams a good deal longer than that to really get back to the top.

[cb8883]

Here are some guys that i have hear mentioned that we would want over Rondo this are cold hard facts, Parker is better, but at this point I take Rondo: The Green is the stats Rondo wins:

Too bad scoring and floor spacing are pretty important parts of the job of a point guard in today's league.

Which proves my point that Rondo isn't elite. Would you rather take Rondo or Wall? Because by Walls numbers Rondo has slightly more dishes, which again is helped by having HOFers next to you and a slightly better FG% or would you take more points slightly less dishes and a better overall shooter. Boston's problem is that Rondo is looked as a franchise talent when he's far from it. I'd take any of those three over Rondo because Rondo isn't guarded as the #1 option if he was I assure you his FG% would go down as well as his PPG. I feel like the Rondo apologists are like the baseball fans who claim player A is better than player B because player A had more RBI's. The whole argument is defensive intangibles and assists. Really?

[cb8883]

... technically, you don't even need a PG to win a championship.

But yeah.  Best case scenario someone will step up to the plate on the 20th and Ainge will find a reason to keep Rondo and still accomplish his goals.

  It's absolutely true you don't need a point guard to win a title. All we need to do is get a MJ or LeBron or Kobe instead. No problem.

Totally agree.

  Clearly you want to tank, but where are we going to get a MJ or LeBron?

2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 Draft. Plenty of chances. You need an elite player in this league in order to win. Pre Injury KG was that player. Celtics haven't had anyone close to that since. Best course is to tank for 2 years get the best picks possible early in the lottery and watch the Nets implode, which they will. You aren't getting LeBron or Durant to come to Boston via free agency. The weather is terrible and taxes are high. Why wouldn't you go to Texas or Miami? Or if you still wanted to pay taxes but live in paradise then LA. C's cannot compete and are not an elite franchise right now. Maybe things change but until players look at it as an attractive destination it's on the level of Toronto. Big city that can't attract FA's due to location.

[crimson_stallion]

PGs I would absolutly want over Rondo

CP3
Lillard
Westbrook
Rose (healthy)
Wall (Finally living up to his potential)
MCW (will be a beast the next few years)
Parker
Curry
Irving

I view Rondo and D-Will the same. 2 very overrated PGs that have or will have max contracts given to them when they aren't max level players.

Being around the big 3 made him a lot better than what his talent level is. Danny would be wise to sell high. Unless you surround him with all stars we've seen the best of Rondo. Do not want to be the organization killed by his max contract. Look what the big 3 did for Perkins. Got him paid well over market value. Same thing with Rondo on his next deal. He's going to get a max deal on his reputation alone and I hope the Lakers are dumb enough to pay him.

I'm just gonna take everything you post from now on with a gigantic grain of salt since that post of yours claiming we should've traded Paul Pierce (and banner 17) to tank for Drose.

With that said, the only PGs I'd take over Rondo are CP3 and Tony Parker. A healthy Rose, maybe. The way a lot of people harp on Ro do you can very much pick apart any other PGs game. People who complain about Rondo's effort, attitude and/or maturity and then clamor for Irving aren't really watching much of the Cavs are they?

The grass is always greener...

I still stand by what I said before. I said if it was me I would have stayed the course and tanked hard for Rose. Such an amazing talent. That being said you can't get mad at winning a title. Who knows what Pierce would have brought back as well. You never know. That being said aside from maybe MCW (young cost controlled) how you can even debate anyone on this list. They're either future hall of famers, well on the way, or impact young players under years of control. If I wanted to really cause a stir I'd put Rubio on that list. The truth is though he impressed me a ton last year this year not so much. I like Rondo but he isn't much of a star without the Big 3.

I do like Rondo but he's very overrated in Celtics nation.

Hang on...

Rondo is overrated, and Rose is"such an amazing talent"? 

Please list for me the ways in which Rose is better than Rondo?

Let me start...

1.  Scoring in the paint (but outside RA)
2. 3 point shooting
3. Free throw shooting

That's it   Rondo is superior or as good in every other way.

Rondois just asgood or better from midrange (yes, Rose is  poor shooter), he's just as good or better finishing at the rim, he's a better defender,  he's a better rebounder,  he's a better passer, he has far superior BBIQ, he's a tougher competitor (Rose is softlike a girl scout) and he steps his game up to another level inthe playoffs (Rose does not).   

[PhoSita]

Here are some guys that i have hear mentioned that we would want over Rondo this are cold hard facts, Parker is better, but at this point I take Rondo: The Green is the stats Rondo wins:

Too bad scoring and floor spacing are pretty important parts of the job of a point guard in today's league.

Which proves my point that Rondo isn't elite. Would you rather take Rondo or Wall? Because by Walls numbers Rondo has slightly more dishes, which again is helped by having HOFers next to you and a slightly better FG% or would you take more points slightly less dishes and a better overall shooter. Boston's problem is that Rondo is looked as a franchise talent when he's far from it. I'd take any of those three over Rondo because Rondo isn't guarded as the #1 option if he was I assure you his FG% would go down as well as his PPG. I feel like the Rondo apologists are like the baseball fans who claim player A is better than player B because player A had more RBI's. The who argument is defensive intangibles and assists. Really?

I think the issue is that there's this dichotomy set up between thinking Rondo is a good PG or feeling that a #1 overall talent like Irving or Wall is probably better than Rondo, either now or in the future.

We should be able to acknowledge that Rondo is a nice point guard while also recognizing that guys like Wall, Irving, Westbrook, Curry etc are better because they have the tools to more consistently take over games and pressure the opposing defense, not to mention that they're younger.  It's just easier to build a team around a player who can give you 20-30 points pretty much every night. 

That doesn't mean that Rondo can't have a prominent place on a really good team.  We know already that he can.

[BballTim]

Here are some guys that i have hear mentioned that we would want over Rondo this are cold hard facts, Parker is better, but at this point I take Rondo: The Green is the stats Rondo wins:

Too bad scoring and floor spacing are pretty important parts of the job of a point guard in today's league.

  To a certain extent that's true, although spacing the floor is more of a requirement for players that aren't the primary ballhandler. As for scoring, I'd say the key is really creating points. We've seen Rondo dominate many games where he hardly scores. Some of the point guards mentioned in the thread might as well not be on the court if they aren't scoring. Scoring would be a much more important part of their job than Rondo's.