I like the way the Celtics play without Rondo

[RockinRyA]

Honestly I'm not sure what to say to you triboy16f. Because watching the same game as you in the past you've insisted Rondo walked the ball up the whole time. I saw him pushing it early consistently and feeding Jeff Green. Then Stevens praised Rondo for pushing the tempo in that game, and an article came out indicating the team was playing a much faster game than with Rondo and than without.

You just say "watch the games". At this point, you're seeing what you want to see.

Subjectively of course you can enjoy the C's without Rondo more, that is a stylistic judgment. But your details as others have pointed out are demonstrably inaccurate.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/10415048/boston-celtics-offense-coming-rajon-rondo-back

Anecdotal evidence says he's wrong, other poster's observation says he's wrong, stats say he's wrong. Its getting kinda pathetic really, making stuff up just because he doesnt like rondo.

[BballTim]

- Rondo had a near triple double , yet we still lost today
- Wallace, Olynyk, Sullinger, Bayless were ineffective
- Rondo stood around most of the 4th quarter hoping that someone will get open instead of initiating the offense
- Rondo played poor defense in the 2nd half that helped us get destroyed

I understand Rondo is still not 100 percent.

Simple question. IF Rondo and Avery Bryant didn't play, could we have won tonight?

  Were you asking if we'd have won without Rondo because we looked so good with him on the bench last night? Because he was out of the game for 11 minutes and we were outscored by 9 points in that time. It's easy to see why you'd come to your conclusion.

[Tr1boy]

- Rondo had a near triple double , yet we still lost today
- Wallace, Olynyk, Sullinger, Bayless were ineffective
- Rondo stood around most of the 4th quarter hoping that someone will get open instead of initiating the offense
- Rondo played poor defense in the 2nd half that helped us get destroyed

I understand Rondo is still not 100 percent.

Simple question. IF Rondo and Avery Bryant didn't play, could we have won tonight?

  Were you asking if we'd have won without Rondo because we looked so good with him on the bench last night? Because he was out of the game for 11 minutes and we were outscored by 9 points in that time. It's easy to see why you'd come to your conclusion.

And how much were we outscored with rondo on the court , especially starting the 3rd?

Our defense is worse with rondo starting. Stats back it up since thats the main thing you look at

[Tr1boy]

No, maybe if CJ layed ABs minutes we would have won.

Maybe but not likely.  Dallas was toying with us in the 2nd half with our starting lineup. Dirk the last level boss didnt even need to play in the 4th quarter

With that said, if Rondo didn't play tonight this would've been an embarrassing blow out. (See how I made a definitive without being able to prove it?)

Isn't that what you said also when we played raptors, wizards and kings the past few months without Rondo starting?

[Boris Badenov]

- Rondo had a near triple double , yet we still lost today
- Wallace, Olynyk, Sullinger, Bayless were ineffective
- Rondo stood around most of the 4th quarter hoping that someone will get open instead of initiating the offense
- Rondo played poor defense in the 2nd half that helped us get destroyed

I understand Rondo is still not 100 percent.

Simple question. IF Rondo and Avery Bryant didn't play, could we have won tonight?

  Were you asking if we'd have won without Rondo because we looked so good with him on the bench last night? Because he was out of the game for 11 minutes and we were outscored by 9 points in that time. It's easy to see why you'd come to your conclusion.

You forgot the most amazing part: three players singled out here - Olynyk, Wallace and Bayless - are subs who played significantly more without Rondo last night than with him. Rondo and Bayless basically sub for each other. They shared the court for around four minutes last night.

The conclusion is inescapable: Rondo's pernicious influence is so great, he degrades the play of others even when he's off the court!

[Tr1boy]

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/2/10/5397154/minutes-restriction-lifted-for-rajon-rondo

Under comments
defensive restrictions?
My God,when is Rondo gonna attempt to keep his man in front of him.Calderon looked like Iverson in his prime.

Pile up the numbers as you will but he’s gone by June

by Motor City Kid on

+1

[BballTim]

- Rondo had a near triple double , yet we still lost today
- Wallace, Olynyk, Sullinger, Bayless were ineffective
- Rondo stood around most of the 4th quarter hoping that someone will get open instead of initiating the offense
- Rondo played poor defense in the 2nd half that helped us get destroyed

I understand Rondo is still not 100 percent.

Simple question. IF Rondo and Avery Bryant didn't play, could we have won tonight?

  Were you asking if we'd have won without Rondo because we looked so good with him on the bench last night? Because he was out of the game for 11 minutes and we were outscored by 9 points in that time. It's easy to see why you'd come to your conclusion.

And how much were we outscored with rondo on the court , especially starting the 3rd?

Our defense is worse with rondo starting. Stats back it up since thats the main thing you look at

  We were outscored by 2 with Rondo on the court. Stats aren't the main thing I look at, I'd guess that's just your answer to the fact that your selective opinion of what's going on in the game doesn't jibe with what the stats say is happening. And I'd guess our defense is worse with Rondo starting. He's very limited in his lateral movements.

  In any case, the team wasn't playing well, with or without Rondo. If you're asking if the team would have won without him I'd guess that was either based on the team playing well when he was off the court or the rest of the players doing well when he was playing but Rondo being especially poor. Which one do you think was happening?

[Fafnir]

The conclusion is inescapable: Rondo's pernicious influence is so great, he degrades the play of others even when he's off the court!

FINKLE IS EINHORN!

[Fafnir]

Defense is definitely the area Rondo has most struggled with lately. Just doesn't have the same level of quickness and burst to defend at a high level. Hopefully he'll begin to regain that on both ends in the next month or two.

[slamtheking]

Honestly I'm not sure what to say to you triboy16f. Because watching the same game as you in the past you've insisted Rondo walked the ball up the whole time. I saw him pushing it early consistently and feeding Jeff Green. Then Stevens praised Rondo for pushing the tempo in that game, and an article came out indicating the team was playing a much faster game than with Rondo and than without.

You just say "watch the games". At this point, you're seeing what you want to see.

Subjectively of course you can enjoy the C's without Rondo more, that is a stylistic judgment. But your details as others have pointed out are demonstrably inaccurate.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/10415048/boston-celtics-offense-coming-rajon-rondo-back

Anecdotal evidence says he's wrong, other poster's observation says he's wrong, stats say he's wrong. Its getting kinda pathetic really, making stuff up just because he doesnt like rondo.

but to his credit, he's consistent in his anti-Rondo bias, no matter how little 'proof' exists to the concept that Rondo has a negative impact on this team.

[BballTim]

Defense is definitely the area Rondo has most struggled with lately. Just doesn't have the same level of quickness and burst to defend at a high level. Hopefully he'll begin to regain that on both ends in the next month or two.

  It's not just burst. It's his difficulty moving from side to side that's having the most impact on his defense.

[sed522002]

Defense is definitely the area Rondo has most struggled with lately. Just doesn't have the same level of quickness and burst to defend at a high level. Hopefully he'll begin to regain that on both ends in the next month or two.

  It's not just burst. It's his difficulty moving from side to side that's having the most impact on his defense.

Yep, especially when he's trying to go through picks.

[D.o.s.]

I think the points the OP makes about Rondo holding the ball too much Were true in the past.  If you check the numbers, you will see that in seasons prior to this, we actually had more team assists when Rondo was injured.  That is different than on court of court numbers.  The second unit, in general without Rondo, did get less assists than the first unit with Rondo (people will quibble with my numbers if I am not clear).

I have to give Rondo credit though because what I see now is Rondo making an effort to push the ball more.  I also see better balance between always trying to make the pass for the assist and just making the next pass.  He is also being a little more scoring-minded.  These are all things that I criticized Rondo for in the past (and I believe justifiably) but now I see a player trying to make adjustments.

Rondo is still Rondo and is a flawed player but have to give him credit for what he is trying to do.

Did you account for pace? Like why would he want a slower pace playing with KG and PP and who the nmbench players were, things like age and whether the players were quicker who played on the bench? Slower pace means less shots/less assists. RR hasn't had a team where you could run, is what you're seeing now RR changing or is it b/c the players around him have changed? Then account for the system the coach runs. I don't get how all the blame can be accredited to RR. It's funny that pace is something blamed on RR as if that pace wasn't w/ a winning team and if not for injuries, who knows. I also remember some posting something about how RR doesn't hold the ball any longer than guys like CP3.

Oh so they picked up the pace last season w/o RR? What did that leave us with? An exhausted and banged up core... seasons past the playoffs were when we hit our stride not what we looked like last season. I don't get why anyone would want to speed up and wear down PP and KG especially when the way they played always allowed for some of the best FG efficiency in the league.

People talked abt rebounds alot too but Mia isn't a good rebounding team either, wouldn't you know they have one of if not the best team FG%. You're not going to get a rb on a made basket. RR knowing who to pass it to and when is a big reason why we always shot the ball very well.

We still made the playoffs. Who knows if we would of with RR. We lost so many games with him taking control of the ball.

And he still has barely changed. Just bc we beat up on the magic and 76rs doesnt mean we r suddenly a great team. I like the way we played yesterday better. On both ends of the court.

  Hopefully he hasn't changed much. He's been a dominant player in the postseason and he's led the team to the finals and the ecf in recent years. I'd like to see more of the same.

I'm pretty crammed with work, so I'll just say "that's up for some debate" and leave this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkzjBfTDH20

[manl_lui]

Rondo controls the pace and controls traffic. Passing more or less means little to me. I believe in both stats and what I see on the court.

I see a smart floor general directing traffic and putting his players in a position to score easier. And as most people already said, Rondo's talent is very rare and hard to find. How many pg do you see actually does that, that puts their teammates in a better position to score and maximizing their game. I see many score first pg in the league, but not many pass 1st pg in the league.

[BballTim]

I think the points the OP makes about Rondo holding the ball too much Were true in the past.  If you check the numbers, you will see that in seasons prior to this, we actually had more team assists when Rondo was injured.  That is different than on court of court numbers.  The second unit, in general without Rondo, did get less assists than the first unit with Rondo (people will quibble with my numbers if I am not clear).

I have to give Rondo credit though because what I see now is Rondo making an effort to push the ball more.  I also see better balance between always trying to make the pass for the assist and just making the next pass.  He is also being a little more scoring-minded.  These are all things that I criticized Rondo for in the past (and I believe justifiably) but now I see a player trying to make adjustments.

Rondo is still Rondo and is a flawed player but have to give him credit for what he is trying to do.

Did you account for pace? Like why would he want a slower pace playing with KG and PP and who the nmbench players were, things like age and whether the players were quicker who played on the bench? Slower pace means less shots/less assists. RR hasn't had a team where you could run, is what you're seeing now RR changing or is it b/c the players around him have changed? Then account for the system the coach runs. I don't get how all the blame can be accredited to RR. It's funny that pace is something blamed on RR as if that pace wasn't w/ a winning team and if not for injuries, who knows. I also remember some posting something about how RR doesn't hold the ball any longer than guys like CP3.

Oh so they picked up the pace last season w/o RR? What did that leave us with? An exhausted and banged up core... seasons past the playoffs were when we hit our stride not what we looked like last season. I don't get why anyone would want to speed up and wear down PP and KG especially when the way they played always allowed for some of the best FG efficiency in the league.

People talked abt rebounds alot too but Mia isn't a good rebounding team either, wouldn't you know they have one of if not the best team FG%. You're not going to get a rb on a made basket. RR knowing who to pass it to and when is a big reason why we always shot the ball very well.

We still made the playoffs. Who knows if we would of with RR. We lost so many games with him taking control of the ball.

And he still has barely changed. Just bc we beat up on the magic and 76rs doesnt mean we r suddenly a great team. I like the way we played yesterday better. On both ends of the court.

  Hopefully he hasn't changed much. He's been a dominant player in the postseason and he's led the team to the finals and the ecf in recent years. I'd like to see more of the same.

I'm pretty crammed with work, so I'll just say "that's up for some debate" and leave this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkzjBfTDH20

  Can't beat classic Python.