Ainge: Fans expectations of Jeff Green are not right

[Tr1boy]

One of the few dumb comments Ainge has made this year.

He is basically saying he is playing good enough to make 9 million a year. Which to me is questionable anyways

Green basically plays when he wants to, or he has a matchup advantage. 

When your a solid player you play decent on a consistent basis. You play physical, drive to the basket, take jumpers , run around like a headless chicken to get free. Green never seems to break out a sweat out there

The bottom line is, he could play harder and better. He has the skills and tools to be really good.

[PhoSita]

I agree that fans generally expect too much from Green; I disagree that expecting a player making $9 million a year to be an above average player in terms of scoring efficiency, hustle stats, defense, or general per-minute production is unreasonable.

[LooseCannon]

Agree with both posts here. You don't trade green unless it's in a move or sequence of moves to land that number one guy. He's not a guy you fill around but a guy you use to fill around. We need that number one guy. Easier said then done but history shows you need that to win.

I just want to point out that, whether you trade Green or not as part of it, if you have a sequence of moves to land that number one guy, you usually have to make the first move without knowing which number one guy you will eventually land.

[Moranis]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

I disagree.  For a 15-16 ppg scorer, I would rather have numbers like this rather than consistently scoring between 12 and 19 points almost every night.

Not when you are a third or fourth option (which is what Green should be).  those guys need to consistently perform.  You just never know which Jeff Green is going to show up and that is a big problem. 

[PhoSita]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

I disagree.  For a 15-16 ppg scorer, I would rather have numbers like this rather than consistently scoring between 12 and 19 points almost every night.

Not when you are a third or fourth option (which is what Green should be).  those guys need to consistently perform.  You just never know which Jeff Green is going to show up and that is a big problem.

I actually think the opposite is true.

You need your #1 and #2 option to be consistent.  You want to slot a guy in that role who can give you 18-30 points every single night.

Now, for your 3rd and 4th option, you can afford to have a guy who has more variance in his game.  That way, you can still win when he has off-nights, and when he's having a great game it can basically seal the deal for you.

I think Green is ideal in that 3rd / 4th role because of that, especially because his skillset means he's not very good scoring when the defense is keying in on him, but he can take a team by surprise if the focus is elsewhere.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

So, should Danny trade him (either because he's making the team "too good," or because he doesn't have the players around him to ensure he stays in his proper role)? Sure, if he can get someone better. Otherwise, no. Boston already has its PG of the present and future, a stud power forward, and a versatile wingman who's a good defender and can explode for 35 on any given night. Unless Danny gets a too-good-to-pass-up deal, you fill in the gaps around those three.

why fill in the gaps around those three? i would think Green (and maybe Sully as well) are more of the perfect 'gap-fillers' rather than players you 'fill gaps around'.

Agree with both posts here. You don't trade green unless it's in a move or sequence of moves to land that number one guy. He's not a guy you fill around but a guy you use to fill around. We need that number one guy. Easier said then done but history shows you need that to win.

A guy like green you use to get that guy or you keep him and out him next to one when he's attained by other means.

Kane and LilRip: Yeah, you're right; I guess I could've been clearer, because I didn't mean to say that Rondo, Sully, and Green would be your three best players, with role players surrounding them, but that those three are necessary pieces that Boston already has in place, so the Cs should keep them, then add whatever else they need—which, of course, includes one or two superstars.

[LooseCannon]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

I disagree.  For a 15-16 ppg scorer, I would rather have numbers like this rather than consistently scoring between 12 and 19 points almost every night.

Not when you are a third or fourth option (which is what Green should be).  those guys need to consistently perform.  You just never know which Jeff Green is going to show up and that is a big problem.

He needs to perform consistently on defense.  He doesn't need his points to be consistent.

Your workhorse #1 and maybe #2 options might need to be more consistent.  It's better for the role players behind them to take turns stepping up.

I expect Jeff Green to take certain types of shots and avoid other types of shots.  The availability of those shots will vary from game to game, so I expect his points to fluctuate.  The guys who pour in a consistent amount of points are either the guys who rarely score so they consistently have a small number of points or the guys who will chuck up shots to make sure they get their points.

[Sketch5]

DA is spot on with Green.

some fans thought 9 mill should equal 25+ points a game, but how many players getting payed under 10 mill are averaging numbers like that? A hand full. And some of those guys are getting payed for what they did before their scoring outburst, like DeRozan.

Green would be a good second scoring punch next to an elite scorer. A guy who gets you around 15 every night, sometimes drops down to 8, but than can explode for 30+.

Also some of the bump of Greens contract might have a little to do with him letting the C's cut him the year he went down the the heart problem. Kind of a thanks for being a sport bonus. Which is a plus side to the organization.

Add a Melo or Love next to Green and you could have a good 1-2 punch.

green is in no way a 2nd option on a contending team , 4th at best .

let's look at some of the 2nd scoring options on contenders ...

OKC = Westbrook
Hou = Dwight Howard
Clippers = Blake
Miami = Dwade
 

Green is a role player

You could have made a respectable argument of 3rd if you could provide options 1 and 2, but to say 4th option is nuts. 4th option rarely scores 15/16 a game.

Westbrook scores because everyone has to keep an eye on Durant. Howard scores because he's the biggest on the court, yet can still only put up 18 a game. The dude shout be in the high 20's almost every night. Wade is a first option guy cheating his way to rings by budding up with Lebron. And Griffen IS a first option on the Clips this year.

I think if Green was with a true #1 option he'd play a little more free. He's best when he's driving, but since he's our best 3 pt option right now, he's the only one that can spread the floor, so when he does drive, every one closes in. When Westbrook drives, they don't close as much because of Durant. Same with Wade, and you can't double on Howard or Griffen.

So maybe he'd be a 3 best option 2nd at best, but not a 4th. You bring in Melo on this team, Green is the 2nd best scorer on the team, closely by Sully.

I just don't see getting a 1 and 2 scorer when the C's are going to have to give Rondo a big contract. So unless you do a sign and trade with Rondo, you wont be able to afford a 2nd otpion scorer like you're talking about if you bring in a Love or Melo.   

[wdleehi]

DA is spot on with Green.

some fans thought 9 mill should equal 25+ points a game, but how many players getting payed under 10 mill are averaging numbers like that? A hand full. And some of those guys are getting payed for what they did before their scoring outburst, like DeRozan.

Green would be a good second scoring punch next to an elite scorer. A guy who gets you around 15 every night, sometimes drops down to 8, but than can explode for 30+.

Also some of the bump of Greens contract might have a little to do with him letting the C's cut him the year he went down the the heart problem. Kind of a thanks for being a sport bonus. Which is a plus side to the organization.

Add a Melo or Love next to Green and you could have a good 1-2 punch.

green is in no way a 2nd option on a contending team , 4th at best .

let's look at some of the 2nd scoring options on contenders ...

OKC = Westbrook
Hou = Dwight Howard
Clippers = Blake
Miami = Dwade
 

Green is a role player

You could have made a respectable argument of 3rd if you could provide options 1 and 2, but to say 4th option is nuts. 4th option rarely scores 15/16 a game.

Westbrook scores because everyone has to keep an eye on Durant. Howard scores because he's the biggest on the court, yet can still only put up 18 a game. The dude shout be in the high 20's almost every night. Wade is a first option guy cheating his way to rings by budding up with Lebron. And Griffen IS a first option on the Clips this year.

I think if Green was with a true #1 option he'd play a little more free. He's best when he's driving, but since he's our best 3 pt option right now, he's the only one that can spread the floor, so when he does drive, every one closes in. When Westbrook drives, they don't close as much because of Durant. Same with Wade, and you can't double on Howard or Griffen.

So maybe he'd be a 3 best option 2nd at best, but not a 4th. You bring in Melo on this team, Green is the 2nd best scorer on the team, closely by Sully.

I just don't see getting a 1 and 2 scorer when the C's are going to have to give Rondo a big contract. So unless you do a sign and trade with Rondo, you wont be able to afford a 2nd otpion scorer like you're talking about if you bring in a Love or Melo.

Because his shot attempts and points would drop.

[Moranis]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

I disagree.  For a 15-16 ppg scorer, I would rather have numbers like this rather than consistently scoring between 12 and 19 points almost every night.

Not when you are a third or fourth option (which is what Green should be).  those guys need to consistently perform.  You just never know which Jeff Green is going to show up and that is a big problem.

I actually think the opposite is true.

You need your #1 and #2 option to be consistent.  You want to slot a guy in that role who can give you 18-30 points every single night.

Now, for your 3rd and 4th option, you can afford to have a guy who has more variance in his game.  That way, you can still win when he has off-nights, and when he's having a great game it can basically seal the deal for you.

I think Green is ideal in that 3rd / 4th role because of that, especially because his skillset means he's not very good scoring when the defense is keying in on him, but he can take a team by surprise if the focus is elsewhere.

Below are Green's shooting percentages in those games.  You can't be that inconsistent as a 3rd option.  You need to be pretty consistent in your efficiency.  Sure some nights you might get 20 shots and other nights you might get 6 shots, but you need to be the 45-55 range on hitting your shots as a 3rd option type player.

53.8
41.2
15.4
30.8
38.5
15.4
61.1

You just can't do that.

[BballTim]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

Fans are frustrated by Green because he is frustratingly inconsistent.  Some games he looks like Lebron James and sometimes he looks like he doesn't belong in the league.  I'd be much happier with something in the middle.

  The problem with Green is that some people claim he's inconsistent, everybody else claims he's inconsistent and when they watch him play they're looking for him to be inconsistent. They then see it.

  What they don't see is that if you look at non-star players on other things you'll be looking at, in general, inconsistent players. "Consistent" nba players have the ball in their hands a lot with the understanding that they're the first option on their team and they'll get a lot of shots every night. Most of their teammates don't have such consistent roles in the offense, hence their scoring is inconsistent.

[fairweatherfan]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

I disagree.  For a 15-16 ppg scorer, I would rather have numbers like this rather than consistently scoring between 12 and 19 points almost every night.

Not when you are a third or fourth option (which is what Green should be).  those guys need to consistently perform.  You just never know which Jeff Green is going to show up and that is a big problem.

I actually think the opposite is true.

You need your #1 and #2 option to be consistent.  You want to slot a guy in that role who can give you 18-30 points every single night.

Now, for your 3rd and 4th option, you can afford to have a guy who has more variance in his game.  That way, you can still win when he has off-nights, and when he's having a great game it can basically seal the deal for you.

I think Green is ideal in that 3rd / 4th role because of that, especially because his skillset means he's not very good scoring when the defense is keying in on him, but he can take a team by surprise if the focus is elsewhere.

Below are Green's shooting percentages in those games.  You can't be that inconsistent as a 3rd option.  You need to be pretty consistent in your efficiency.  Sure some nights you might get 20 shots and other nights you might get 6 shots, but you need to be the 45-55 range on hitting your shots as a 3rd option type player.

53.8
41.2
15.4
30.8
38.5
15.4
61.1

You just can't do that.

Can you name a player or two that you think exemplifies a consistent #3 or #4 guy?  Because I've looked up a couple and their game logs are generally just as erratic as Green's.

I mean, here's Deng's last 7 games - he's another classic 3rd option at SF, and is considered better than Green:

3 (.100)
18 (.500)
24 (.526)
13 (.333)
6 (.300)
18 (.389)
9 (.444)

There's not really a big difference there.

[Moranis]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

Fans are frustrated by Green because he is frustratingly inconsistent.  Some games he looks like Lebron James and sometimes he looks like he doesn't belong in the league.  I'd be much happier with something in the middle.

  The problem with Green is that some people claim he's inconsistent, everybody else claims he's inconsistent and when they watch him play they're looking for him to be inconsistent. They then see it.

  What they don't see is that if you look at non-star players on other things you'll be looking at, in general, inconsistent players. "Consistent" nba players have the ball in their hands a lot with the understanding that they're the first option on their team and they'll get a lot of shots every night. Most of their teammates don't have such consistent roles in the offense, hence their scoring is inconsistent.

I don't disagree with you at all, I was merely commenting on Ainge's point.  I mean Luol Deng (though he was a lot more consistent in chicago), Evan Turner, Jeff Green, etc. are all pretty much the same type of player with the same type of consistency.  They are on bad teams though.  Deng was much more consistent on Chicago then he has been in Cleveland.  Green, even when he was on the 50 win team, was still very inconsistent from game to game.  You look at a guy like Wesley Matthews (#3 in Portland) and he is pretty darn consistent.  7 games under 10, 6 games at 24 or more (and none higher than 28), with everything else in between.  That is what you would want from a Green level scorer.

[Moranis]

Ainge has a misunderstanding of fans expectations.  I don't think anyone expects Green to score 25-30 every night, but there certainly should be an expectation of more consistency within his numbers.  He shouldn't have numbers that look like this:

39
16
8
14
18
8
36

That is too much of a yo-yo.  That is the issue.  Now granted his shot attempts are certainly more consistent, but his foul shot attempts are not (which is indicative of his lack of aggression a lot). 

I disagree.  For a 15-16 ppg scorer, I would rather have numbers like this rather than consistently scoring between 12 and 19 points almost every night.

Not when you are a third or fourth option (which is what Green should be).  those guys need to consistently perform.  You just never know which Jeff Green is going to show up and that is a big problem.

I actually think the opposite is true.

You need your #1 and #2 option to be consistent.  You want to slot a guy in that role who can give you 18-30 points every single night.

Now, for your 3rd and 4th option, you can afford to have a guy who has more variance in his game.  That way, you can still win when he has off-nights, and when he's having a great game it can basically seal the deal for you.

I think Green is ideal in that 3rd / 4th role because of that, especially because his skillset means he's not very good scoring when the defense is keying in on him, but he can take a team by surprise if the focus is elsewhere.

Below are Green's shooting percentages in those games.  You can't be that inconsistent as a 3rd option.  You need to be pretty consistent in your efficiency.  Sure some nights you might get 20 shots and other nights you might get 6 shots, but you need to be the 45-55 range on hitting your shots as a 3rd option type player.

53.8
41.2
15.4
30.8
38.5
15.4
61.1

You just can't do that.

Can you name a player or two that you think exemplifies a consistent #3 or #4 guy?  Because I've looked up a couple and their game logs are generally just as erratic as Green's.

I mean, here's Deng's last 7 games - he's another classic 3rd option at SF, and is considered better than Green:

3 (.100)
18 (.500)
24 (.526)
13 (.333)
6 (.300)
18 (.389)
9 (.444)

There's not really a big difference there.

a guy like Wesley Matthews (though granted he is a SG), but he is the 3rd option in Portland. 

Chandler Parsons in Houston.  Much more consistent on the whole (though he has had a couple of awful games fairly recently).

Trevor Ariza in Washington (outside of one stretch where he was banged up a little) has been pretty consistent.

Obviously players are going to have a lot of fluctuations (even Lebron and Durant go up and down), but there should be at least some generalizations that can be made.  With Jeff Green you have no idea if the 39 point scorer or the 4 point scorer is going to show up. 

[Depalma2002]

Agree with both posts here. You don't trade green unless it's in a move or sequence of moves to land that number one guy. He's not a guy you fill around but a guy you use to fill around. We need that number one guy. Easier said then done but history shows you need that to win.

I just want to point out that, whether you trade Green or not as part of it, if you have a sequence of moves to land that number one guy, you usually have to make the first move without knowing which number one guy you will eventually land.

I agree. Of a future contending big three, we have our #2 in Rondo and potentially have a #3 in Sully (who probably needs another year or two of normal development before he is a legitimate #3), so we need our #1.

Further, since few Centers have elite skill on ball sides of the ball and true #1's at the Center are extremely rare, so we are most likely going to have to look at either SG or SF for our future #1.

Still, I wouldn't move Green just to move him right now. I would move him now draft pick in the 11-20 range or a center that can be a 4th or 5th starter on a contender. Otherwise, I'd just wait and see how the ping pong balls fall.